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Quote (Arnold @ July 25 2010,01:13) O.K. let me see if I can give my two cent. Phil. 2 states that He emptied Himself. The Question is of what did He emptied Himself of. When we read in John 17:5 we can tell that He was with the Father and had a glory. Now we do know that He is a Spirit being now…… and most agree with that. So why is it therefore so hard to believe that it is that glory which He had, He has now, and more. That is what He emptied Himself of. He gave up to be a Spirit Being like His Father and became like Servant, a flesh body….. For us…..I also want to say that in order to be with Jehovah God, He had to be Spirit Being. No flesh and blood could be with Jehovah God. He cannot look on Sin. And in this flesh we will sin…Because Jesus knew where He came from, He did not sin….Also John 1:1 and Rev. 19:13 shows us also that He was with God. Most don't want to believe that He was God. I see God as a title. He came forth from God and therefore is of God, created by God, not like us. We are created out of the dust of the earth….. We should thank Jesus every day that He emptied Himself of being with God, to save us……However that will not change in what He was and what He is now. Rev. 19:16 tells us that He is : “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS……..And He will return as that….. Irene
Hi Irene,I agree with you on this matter, but I'm trying to keep this thread ONLY about Phil 2. When they figure out they can't even answer to this first “pre-existence” scripture, then we can hit them with the next one.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (martian @ July 25 2010,01:59) Have this attitude
What did he empty himself of?
There is your context. Start there.
Hi Martian,I didn't think you would show.
He emptied himself of his godly form to be made in the form of a human. It's written pretty straightforward. There's really not much of a mystery here. So why can't you get it?Quote (martian @ July 25 2010,02:18) Mike
Here is the Article you refused to read on the other thread. You going to ignore it again?
Yes Martian,As a matter of fact I am. Juan is not here for me to ask what I've been asking all of you to no avail:
If he WAS in human form while he was “in the form of God”, then how could he “make himself nothing” by “being made in human form”?
But if he actually answers that exact question in that long post somewhere, paste it up for me as your answer, since you seem to have trouble thinking for yourself.
mike
Martian,
This is the closest Juan comes to answering my question:
Quote All verse 7 is saying is that Jesus refused to use his esteemed position for his own interests, instead, even though he was human like the rest of us, he resisted the temptation to follow his own desires and chose to follow the will of God, to obey God to his death. That doesn't do a very good job of explaining how, if he was already IN the form of a man, he could then empty himself and be made in the form of a man.
Like I said, Juan's not here to answer my question, so it is up to you Martian.
mike
Hi MB,
Jesus Christ was in the form of God as his full anointing was of God.
In his human vessel God indeed visited His chosen people.
He was given the Spirit of God without measure.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2010,07:58) Hi MB,
Jesus Christ was in the form of God as his full anointing was of God.
Hi Nick,So at what point in his human existence did he empty himself of this “anointing” and be made in human likeness?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2010,07:42) Quote (martian @ July 25 2010,02:18) Mike
Here is the Article you refused to read on the other thread. You going to ignore it again?
Yes Martian,As a matter of fact I am. Juan is not here for me to ask what I've been asking all of you to no avail:
If he WAS in human form while he was “in the form of God”, then how could he “make himself nothing” by “being made in human form”?
But if he actually answers that exact question in that long post somewhere, paste it up for me as your answer, since you seem to have trouble thinking for yourself.
mike
One of the key elements of proper study is to be thorough. You refuse to read anything that might dislodge what you have already decided is true.
Since you refuse to be mature and study like an adult, I will use your example of a 3 Y/O (imitating monkeys) and (for a season) spoon feed you.There is an obvious precedent set in scripture of comparing the First Adam with the Last Adam. This comparison is made by way of example for humanity to learn.
Form (morphe) – nature. Comes from the base of the word meros that means to have an allotment, a division or share, piece, portion.
6who, although He existed with an allotment or portion from/of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the nature of a bond-servant,What was the allotment or portion that Christ had?
It was the double portion that the first Adam lost at the fall and was given to his younger brother, the last Adam, along with all the firstborn rights and privledges.
Even though Christ had the right to rule his Father’s kingdom, he instead became a servant to it’s people. Christ had the firstborn rights because the first Adam sold them to get his own desires and their mutual father gave them to the last Adam. The first son gave up his position and his father gave those rights to a son born much later.BTW – I came to these conclusions in the following way.
1. I read the verses and then developed a hypothesis on their meaning.
2. I considered the context both immediate and throughout all of scripture.
3. I studied the words in their original language.
4. I searched out any impact the Hebrew culture of the time might have.
5. I looked for any way that my conclusions might negatively impact the character of God or the mission of Christ.
6. (much like 5) I looked for fruit good or bad from my conclusions.
—AND FINALLY —
7. I researched what teachers and other students have said about these verses. (sometimes I find their words more clear and concise then mine and I use them)
Sometimes (depending on the subject) I even employ debate forums to see what other say. However I rarely if ever find, on forums, those that will be as careful or thorough as these steps demand. Most never get beyond step one.Just to be clear and concise, here is another web page that clearly states what the first Adam gave up and the last Adam attained.
Adam Takes and Relinquishes Dominion
God Gives Adam Dominion in the Garden of Eden but through Sin He Relinquished AuthorityIn chapter one of Genesis, God's activity on the sixth day is culminated with His masterwork, Man and Woman. It was God's plan to have His Man to rule over all of the earth, to be the representative of God in heaven. “Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” (Genesis 1:26, 28)
God originally gave Adam and Eve dominion. Dominion means to rule over, to be lord over, to dominate, to reign. For a brief, unspecified time, Adam and Eve enjoyed their God-given rulership, and had a taste of what God's people will experience in the future. God crowned Adam and Eve with glory and honor. “You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen — even the beasts of the field, the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea that pass through the paths of the seas.” (Psalm 8:6-8) But when Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command and ate of the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam transferred all dominion and authority to God's enemy, the Devil. In Luke 4:6, when Jesus Christ was being tempted by the Devil, he said to Jesus, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.” Jesus did not question the legitimacy of his claim.
Kings of various countries or geographical areas exercised dominion. Their dominion not only signified their authority to rule over their subjects, but over all of the territory within their kingdom. In Psalm 72, David wrote with his son, Solomon, his successor, in mind. He was also writing prophetically about Jesus Christ. “Give the king Your judgments, O God, and Your righteousness to the king's Son. He will bring justice to the poor of the people; He will save the children of the needy, and will break in pieces the oppressor. In His days the righteous shall flourish, and abundance of peace, until the moon is no more. He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Those who dwell in the wilderness will bow before Him, and His enemies will lick the dust. Yes, all kings shall fall down before Him; All nations shall serve Him. His name shall endure forever; His name shall continue as long as the sun. And men shall be blessed in Him; All nations shall call Him blessed.” (Psalm 72:1, 4, 7-9, 11, 17)
With the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the penalty for sin was paid, thereby restoring to Christians all that Adam lost in the garden due to sin. Spiritually, Christian believers again have dominion, power and authority that they can exercise over the adversary and his realm. Ephesians teaches that, with the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, Jesus Christ is “far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 1:21; 2:6)
Today, God's people legally have the dominion that Adam relinquished in Eden. “For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.” (Romans 5:17) In the future, with the new heavens and new earth, God's redeemed will have dominion forevermore. “For You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.” (Revelation 5:9, 10)
http://www.faithclipart.com/guide….on.html
The first Adam lost his first sons rights because of sin. Christ voluntarily gave his rights up to be a servant of mankind.
Mike…………Martian is presenting Phil 2 that right way brother. You can not use it for any proof text , you need to try something else maybe another scripture will help you case better.
peace and love…………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2010,07:31) Quote (Arnold @ July 25 2010,01:13) O.K. let me see if I can give my two cent. Phil. 2 states that He emptied Himself. The Question is of what did He emptied Himself of. When we read in John 17:5 we can tell that He was with the Father and had a glory. Now we do know that He is a Spirit being now…… and most agree with that. So why is it therefore so hard to believe that it is that glory which He had, He has now, and more. That is what He emptied Himself of. He gave up to be a Spirit Being like His Father and became like Servant, a flesh body….. For us…..I also want to say that in order to be with Jehovah God, He had to be Spirit Being. No flesh and blood could be with Jehovah God. He cannot look on Sin. And in this flesh we will sin…Because Jesus knew where He came from, He did not sin….Also John 1:1 and Rev. 19:13 shows us also that He was with God. Most don't want to believe that He was God. I see God as a title. He came forth from God and therefore is of God, created by God, not like us. We are created out of the dust of the earth….. We should thank Jesus every day that He emptied Himself of being with God, to save us……However that will not change in what He was and what He is now. Rev. 19:16 tells us that He is : “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS……..And He will return as that….. Irene
Hi Irene,I agree with you on this matter, but I'm trying to keep this thread ONLY about Phil 2. When they figure out they can't even answer to this first “pre-existence” scripture, then we can hit them with the next one.
peace and love,
mike
Is this some kind of pride trip competition? I thought it was about seeking the truth of doctrine via scripture so that we may further our journey and development in God.
Perhaps there are those that do not have that goal.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 25 2010,12:33) Mike…………Martian is presenting Phil 2 that right way brother. You can not use it for any proof text , you need to try something else maybe another scripture will help you case better. peace and love…………………………gene
I hate to be a pessimist Gene but I doubt honest study will have any impact on the doctrinal and religious of this forum.Gene,
I have found no one on this board that can refute my criteria for testing my conclusions. If they cannot refute my criteria they cannot refute my conclusions.Hi M,
Are you a fair judge of other's view?
Are you the ultimate authority??
What value is 'triumph' to you?martian…………I have also seen Phil 2 the way you and the post of others you have posted have. But we need to also remember others have to be convinced because of much influencing that has taken place over many many years, It is good we contend for the Faith that was ounce delievered, and if GOD and Jesus our brother uses us for that work , lets do it humbly and in love for all. Patience is a great virtue and of great value to us all here brother.
peave and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (JustAskin @ July 23 2010,11:51) Also, if Jesus was “AS GOD”, emptied himself and came as man, died and was raised again and established as King in his father's Kingdom (for a specified period) can it be summized that he was “Raised to a LOWER position” than that which he left because now he is in a lesser position as being “NOT AS GOD but only an Heir to God”.
That is a good point.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2010,08:54) Hi MB,
His anointing was unto eternity.
But his humility allowed him to abide in the will of God.
Hi Nick,So then what was it that he emptied himself of to be made in human likeness?
mike
Quote (t8 @ July 26 2010,03:39) Quote (JustAskin @ July 23 2010,11:51) Also, if Jesus was “AS GOD”, emptied himself and came as man, died and was raised again and established as King in his father's Kingdom (for a specified period) can it be summized that he was “Raised to a LOWER position” than that which he left because now he is in a lesser position as being “NOT AS GOD but only an Heir to God”.
That is a good point.
Greetings,Even though…..he EXISTED…
WAS in the form…All these are in the past tense so why the question of whether he existed BEFORE he became the son of Man?
It states so. Why argue about which “form” or image he existed as.
Irene was right, you can't empty yourself from spirit as it doesn't have a vessel. He had to have a physical shape. If he was in Heaven that form had to be angelic.
Next, you have two other concepts that prove his pre-existence if this is what the debate is about.
Son of God.
Son of Man.Son of God came into existence as the firstborn of all creation (Col 1:15). BEFORE anything else existed 1.17
Son of God was SENT by God to be our Savior.
Son of God is a GIFT FROM God GIVEN….
To be sent or given he had to EXIST….as the object…Then he was made a little lower than the angels, “NOT GOD”, but angels, for a little while.
Son of Man came into existence thru the birth of Mary.
Irene said, “Jesus is a spirit being now”. Help! (No one challenged that, so I guess you all believe it)!
At his crucifixion his “spirit” was immediately in God's hands until he resurrected his murdered body. His spirit returned to his body in the tomb and he was resurrected in the body that was crucified, went up into the clouds, sits on a throne next to God in and will return in like manner so that all can see him as he left. Mary touched him, he ate, disciples walked and talked with him, etc….NOT SPIRIT.
How can Jesus a human, be equal (same as) to God? As the son of God he would appear (form/image) to look like his Father.
Keeping this short.
Half verses listed and half-truths given Gen 1:27 and Col 1:1(5).
David
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