- This topic is empty.
- Posts
I know Irene. If Jesus was ONLY flesh, then it wouldn't say he “partook” of the flesh. It would be a senseless statement if he was nothing BUT flesh.
The same with “he was OBLIGED to become like his brothers”. If his ONLY existence was flesh, then what does that even mean?
Let's keep plugging away anyway.
mike
Hi Jodi and Gene,
Can either of you actually DIRECTLY answer the question?
How can Jesus (or anyone for that matter) who is already a human being, be made in the likeness of a human being?
Thanks in advance,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2010,23:05) Hi Jodi and Gene, Can either of you actually DIRECTLY answer the question?
How can Jesus (or anyone for that matter) who is already a human being, be made in the likeness of a human being?
Thanks in advance,
mike
Mikethis is oxymoron,it does not make sense ,it is impossible to beleive that Christ was not preexisting is coming,scriptures have it written all over from one cover to the other.
this is a vain discussion this is worthless.
Pierre
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,17:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 23 2010,14:45) Hi Jodi, Thanks for coming!
You made a good post, and I agree with some of it.You asked:
Quote HOW were those who Paul was speaking to suppose to be like minded with some spirit son deciding to come to earth and disguise himself as a human being?
Are we not also suppose to be “like-minded” with God? Are we not to always have in mind the things of God, not of men? Isn't that what Jesus told Peter? He said, “Get behind me Satan, for you have in mind the things of men, not the things of God.” Wasn't that in essence saying we need to be “like-minded” with God? If you don't agree, there are plenty more scriptures that convey the same idea.Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2010,16:12) The POWER that was bestowed upon Jesus by the Father through the Father’s Spirit, was unlike anything that had ever been given to man. Through these powers that were given to Jesus by the Father, at the river Jordon, Jesus CAME in the FORM of God. Though in that form he was seen as equal having the same powers of His Father, no pride was found in him, rather he was humble, and never used the powers given to him for his own gain, but used them to serve the Father and all of mankind. Look, I completely understand your human logic here, and I have heard the same exact thoughts from Martian and Gene and Marty and barley. To me, it wouldn't matter whether Jesus pre-existed or not. I'm not trying to fit scriptures into my doctrine or my own personal wishes here. But I'm not about to claim that the way God decided to do things bears no “fruit” according to my tiny human brain either. I'm only trying to base what and how I believe around what the scriptures teach. I have no axe to grind here – it's not personal.
That being said, let's cut to the chase here instead of giving our OPINIONS of what thoughts Paul was trying to convey. The last line of Phil 2:7 says “and was made in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING.” The last Greek word is “anthropos”, which means “human being”, although it can also be translated as “man” or “men”. Just as if I said “man has existed on earth for 6000 years”, I really “human beings”. Are you with me so far?
The NIV translates that last part as “being made in human likeness.”
So we have a progression of events in 2:6-7,
1. Jesus was existing in the form/nature of God
2. Jesus didn't think of being equal to God, but instead
3. Emptied himself
4. Took on the form/nature of a slave
5. Was made in the likeness of a human beingYou, like all the other “non-preexisters” I've discussed this with, seem to think Jesus was already a human being during #1. But if that is the case, what does #5 even mean? So the simple question that no one else seems to be able to answer is this:
How can Jesus (or anyone for that matter) who is already a human being, be made into the likeness of a human being?
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike!!Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Who is HE? A pre-existent son or the Promised Messiah?
The promise to David was that God WOULD BE a Father to his seed, and that seed WOULD BE to Him as a son. This MAN would be the anointed…..called Messiah or Christ.
The Christ had to be made just like us flesh and blood and NOTHING else in order to be a propitiation for our sins and in order to be a proper High Priest.
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Phil 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
Mike I believe what is meant is that our Messiah came to us in likeness of us, being able to be tempted, but he was not like us in the fact that he never gave into that temptation.
Hi Mike,How did my post not answer your question?
Jesus was a human, to think other wise is ANTI Christ thinking.
1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
Don't think anti Christ thoughts when you interpret scripture.
As I answered before, Jesus came in the likeness of men, meaning he came being able to be tempted just as we are tempted, but he WAS NOT like us in the fact he never fed into his temptations serving himself above YHWH.
The problem with all you pre-existent believers is you CHANGE the identity of whom scripture is speaking of and then you interpret what is being said under that FALSE identity, completely heading in the wrong direction to find scriptural truth.
As I mentioned before Philippians 2 is speaking of the Man named Jesus who was the promised Messiah that WAS TO COME, however you all read the text as if it were speaking of a spirit being who decided to come to earth and transform himself into a human being, or disguise himself as a human being. No doubt you read 1 John 4 in the same manner, and many other scriptures. That's how you change the true meaning of scripture. The scripture does NOT say a spirit son CAME in the flesh, Jesus the Messiah CAME in the flesh. The promise God made to David CAME to us and was FLESH. No doubt 1 John 4 was said by Paul because with all that Jesus performed under God’s powers, some saw him as a god and began to question if he was more than flesh. NO doubt people began to apply their pagan ideas to the MAN Je
sus our Messiah who was promised to one day come. Paul had to set them strait!IMO anyone who reads a scripture and does NOT apply it to the human born from Mary given the name Jesus, but applies it to be speaking of a spirit son is creating ANTI Messiah doctrine.
Phil 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
Jesus the Messiah made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. The Man that was given the powers of God made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant. Imagine that, a man with extraordinary power did not use those powers for his own gain, creating a grand reputation for himself. Jesus stated that he did NOTHING of himself everything was of his Father. Imagine that, with all that power he made himself a servant following his Father’s ever command for our sake!!! Our BROTHER did these things, a MAN of our OWN flesh!! A Man ABLE to sin, a man who was tempted like us, a man in our own likeness, did these things!!!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2010,16:03) I know Irene. If Jesus was ONLY flesh, then it wouldn't say he “partook” of the flesh. It would be a senseless statement if he was nothing BUT flesh. The same with “he was OBLIGED to become like his brothers”. If his ONLY existence was flesh, then what does that even mean?
Let's keep plugging away anyway.
mike
Mike,Apply it to the promised Messiah that was to come, not to a pre-existent spirit being that came morphing himself into an embryo. Good grief that is such PAGAN thought. Paul is teaching that the promised Messiah was truly like us because people wanted to make him out to be something more, but anything more is ANTI Christ.
Jews were and still are NOT expecting a spirit son to come down and be their King, they were and are expecting a MAN of the seed of David. When he did come, as said before, some began to make him into something he wasn't, this is WHY Paul teaches-
1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
When you make the Messiah into God or when you make the Messiah into a pre-existent spirit son, according to Paul's teaching you are making our Messiah into a false Messiah.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 30 2010,02:00) [ IMO anyone who reads a scripture and does NOT apply it to the human born from Mary given the name Jesus, but applies it to be speaking of a spirit son is creating ANTI Messiah doctrine.
Phil 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
Jesus the Messiah made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. The Man that was given the powers of God made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant. Imagine that, a man with extraordinary power did not use those powers for his own gain, creating a grand reputation for himself. Jesus stated that he did NOTHING of himself everything was of his Father. Imagine that, with all that power he made himself a servant following his Father’s ever command for our sake!!! Our BROTHER did these things, a MAN of our OWN flesh!! A Man ABLE to sin, a man who was tempted like us, a man in our own likeness, did these things!!!
Jodi………Absolutely 100% correct Sis. It is amazing what you can see when you come out of those false teaching of the Trinity and Preexistences MYSTERY RELIGION>peace and love to you and yours Jodi………………………….gene
Hi Jodi,
It's funny that you use one of my favorite pre-existent proof scriptures to support non-preexistence.
“Jesus Christ HAS COME IN THE FLESH” Where did he “COME” from? Could I sensibly say about you, “Jodi Lee CAME IN THE FLESH about 1975”? ( I don't actually know when you were born.
) What does that mean……CAME in the flesh? Doesn't it conjur up thoughts of a being who was NOT flesh, but then CAME IN THE FLESH?And you haven't dealt at all with my first question. You are sidestepping it and purposely leaving out the first line, “Who existing in the form of God…..” So once again, let me go through the main points:
1. Who existing in the form of God……(Jodi, do you think Jesus was a human being at this point?)
2. Didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped.
3. But instead emptied himself (of what?)
4. Took on the form of a servant
5. AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEINGHow can you not see it? If Jesus ALREADY WAS a human being in #1, HOW COULD HE BE MADE INTO ONE IN #5?
Again Jodi, How in the world can someone be made in the likeness of something he already is?
I had a cat once. But then the cat was declawed, AND MADE INTO THE LIKENESS OF A CAT. Can you see how it just doesn't work? If it ALREADY was a cat, it can't then be made in the likeness of a cat.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 28 2010,17:06) Hi Mike!! Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same…
Hi Jodi,Can you NOT see that this which ‘you Posted’ not only implies
“Free Will” for Jesus, but also pre-existance which ‘you’ deny?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,14:03) Hi Mike, Why should Gene and Martian call Jesus Lord?
if he is the same as the rest of us, do they call others Lord as well?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
To All,No takers on this one?
Gene, Jodi, Martian, Barley?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEDJ……….WE are speaking of His Humanity (NOT) His position , you seem not to understand that. There are many Lords but unto us their is only one Lord Jesus Christ. What does that have to do with him being Human or Not?. The reason we did not respond to it is because it is not a relevant question.
peace and love………………………………gene
Mike………….I would hate to think that i base my whole belief in Jesus Preexistence on Just on scriptures you can take out opf context, while all the time ignoring the hundreds of other that show different. But that what being narrow minded and indoctrinated can do. And if God has sent a deluding Spirit (intellect) to you to believe the “LIE” then That is exactly what you shall Believe. 2 Ths 2, would be a good study for you and all preexistences and Trinitarians also. Seeing you both move Jesus to a different existence then we are, Creating a Separation between Him and US.
peace and love……………………….gene
I like this quote:
“And anyone who does not believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh”.
Did 'Jesus' Come in the flesh…or did someone who became known, was given the name 'Jesus' come in the flesh?
Jesus was not known as 'Jesus' before he was known as 'Jesus' at his 'Christening' – yet we read that 'Jesus' did this or that in heaven…
In the same way, was 'Jesus' the 'Begotten Son of God' before he was 'begotten' – yet we read in Scriptures that 'God sent His ONLY Begotten Son – Jesus Christ'.
Is it not: God sent the one who would be called 'Jesus' and 'become His ONLY Begotten Son'?Tell me someone: When will the Saints become “Begotten Sons of God”, “brothers with Christ”, “Heirs of God and with Christ”.
Is it not when they “Throw off the Flesh and take on the Spirit” – ooh, isn't that what happened to Jesus when he was raised from the dead?And which of the Saints has yet become a “Begotten Son of God”? None yet that Scriptures said at the time it was written – So Jesus was STILL the “ONLY Begotten Son of God” until then, yeah?
JA:
Quote Did 'Jesus' Come in the flesh…or did someone who became known, was given the name 'Jesus' come in the flesh?
HA! Whenever you make a point of saying “pre-Jesus” or explaining to us all that he wasn't “Jesus” until he was born of Mary, I always think to myself, “How does HE know?” Really JA, how in the world do YOU know that “Jesus” wasn't always his personal name in heaven? What scripture says that? NONE. But now you actually draw attention to one that clearly implies that his name WAS already Jesus as a spirit being.So take this new knowledge you've just gained, and apply it to “begotten”. Jesus wouldn't have told Nicodemus that he was already God's only begotten Son if he wasn't. And Paul wouldn't have said, “When He AGAIN sends His firstborn into the world” if Jesus wasn't already God's firstborn the first time He sent him into the world.
JA:
Quote And which of the Saints has yet become a “Begotten Son of God”? None yet that Scriptures said at the time it was written – So Jesus was STILL the “ONLY Begotten Son of God” until then, yeah? Yet we know that Jesus said “some of you here today will not taste death….”. I take that to mean at least one of those people present when Jesus said that went straight up to heaven. And I can't say what happened for sure, but IF that one person was at that time “begotten” by God, then Jesus is no longer the “ONLY begotten Son of God”, but the “FIRST begotten Son of God”.
Unless…….the “begetting” of Jesus was a literal one as compared to the “begetting” of all the other saints which will be a figurative one.
mike
JA……….You have it right Jesus was at the time that was written and still is the ONLY ONE the Has Been Begotten from humanity and Born into the Kingdom of GOD from among all of GOD Physical Creation. He still hold that title until the First resurrection and then He will not Hold it any longer, Because as it say He is the (FIRST) Born of MANY BROTHERS. All who deny Jesus coming into existence as a Human being of Flesh origins ARE ANTICHRISTS. They are those who separate Jesus form Us Humans and deny God's work in humanity as well. They are indeed Antichrists rather they know it or not. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 30 2010,19:39) JA: Quote Did 'Jesus' Come in the flesh…or did someone who became known, was given the name 'Jesus' come in the flesh?
HA! Whenever you make a point of saying “pre-Jesus” or explaining to us all that he wasn't “Jesus” until he was born of Mary, I always think to myself, “How does HE know?” Really JA, how in the world do YOU know that “Jesus” wasn't always his personal name in heaven? What scripture says that? NONE. But now you actually draw attention to one that clearly implies that his name WAS already Jesus as a spirit being.So take this new knowledge you've just gained, and apply it to “begotten”. Jesus wouldn't have told Nicodemus that he was already God's only begotten Son if he wasn't. And Paul wouldn't have said, “When He AGAIN sends His firstborn into the world” if Jesus wasn't already God's firstborn the first time He sent him into the world.
JA:
Quote And which of the Saints has yet become a “Begotten Son of God”? None yet that Scriptures said at the time it was written – So Jesus was STILL the “ONLY Begotten Son of God” until then, yeah? Yet we know that Jesus said “some of you here today will not taste death….”. I take that to mean at least one of those people present when Jesus said that went straight up to heaven. And I can't say what happened for sure, but IF that one person was at that time “begotten” by God, then Jesus is no longer the “ONLY begotten Son of God”, but the “FIRST begotten Son of God”.
Unless…….the “begetting” of Jesus was a literal one as compared to the “begetting” of all the other saints which will be a figurative one.
mike
Mikewhat is it mean;;”some of you here today will not taste death….”.
TASTE DEATH;what does it mean???
Pierre
Hi Pierre,
In my humble opinion, it means that some will not go to Hades at all. They will go right from life on earth to life in heaven.
I contrast the “some here will NOT TASTE DEATH” with Paul saying that Jesus DID TASTE DEATH for everyone. (Luke 9:27, Heb 2:9)
We know Jesus completely died, but he was saying that after he defeated death, some of his followers wouldn't even have to die and be resurrected……because they would go right from flesh life to spirit life.
That's how I understand it anyway.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 30 2010,22:06) Hi Pierre, In my humble opinion, it means that some will not go to Hades at all. They will go right from life on earth to life in heaven.
I contrast the “some here will NOT TASTE DEATH” with Paul saying that Jesus DID TASTE DEATH for everyone. (Luke 9:27, Heb 2:9)
We know Jesus completely died, but he was saying that after he defeated death, some of his followers wouldn't even have to die and be resurrected……because they would go right from flesh life to spirit life.
That's how I understand it anyway.
peace and love,
mike
Mikei only know one previous experience in scriptures that is HENOCH who was remove by God so he would not see the wickedness ,
in this view ,i would say that a person is not conscious of his own death,
Just like in the case of Stephen,he was looking up and reveal what he saw but unaware of what happen to him being stoned.Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 30 2010,12:39) JA: Quote Did 'Jesus' Come in the flesh…or did someone who became known, was given the name 'Jesus' come in the flesh?
HA! Whenever you make a point of saying “pre-Jesus” or explaining to us all that he wasn't “Jesus” until he was born of Mary, I always think to myself, “How does HE know?” Really JA, how in the world do YOU know that “Jesus” wasn't always his personal name in heaven? What scripture says that? NONE. But now you actually draw attention to one that clearly implies that his name WAS already Jesus as a spirit being.So take this new knowledge you've just gained, and apply it to “begotten”. Jesus wouldn't have told Nicodemus that he was already God's only begotten Son if he wasn't. And Paul wouldn't have said, “When He AGAIN sends His firstborn into the world” if Jesus wasn't already God's firstborn the first time He sent him into the world.
JA:
Quote And which of the Saints has yet become a “Begotten Son of God”? None yet that Scriptures said at the time it was written – So Jesus was STILL the “ONLY Begotten Son of God” until then, yeah? Yet we know that Jesus said “some of you here today will not taste death….”. I take that to mean at least one of those people present when Jesus said that went straight up to heaven. And I can't say what happened for sure, but IF that one person was at that time “begotten” by God, then Jesus is no longer the “ONLY begotten Son of God”, but the “FIRST begotten Son of God”.
Unless…….the “begetting” of Jesus was a literal one as compared to the “begetting” of all the other saints which will be a figurative one.
mike
Hi Mike,If you add things up correctly, Jesus was always his name as you surmised; Mike!
Rev.13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him(the antichrist),
whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.The Savior(117) = God The Father(117) (Isaiah 45:21)
Jesus’ authentic name [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă has a direct connection to GOD’s name [יה]
in that YÄ is the first part of Jesus’ “REAL” name. GOD’s name is not vocalized
in the English translation of the name Jesus and therefore misses the precise exactness
and direct authentic connection to God’s Hebrew name [יה] YÄ. Jesus’ Name in Hebrew
יהשוע means: (“YÄ is salvation” [יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע]) the salvation of “GOD the Father”.
Therefore, [יהשוע] “Jesus” REAL name authentically establishes [יהוה] “JEHOVAH” as the highest Name.
(Psalm 83:18)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2010,15:27) Mike i only know one previous experience in scriptures that is HENOCH who was remove by God so he would not see the wickedness ,
in this view ,i would say that a person is not conscious of his own death,
Just like in the case of Stephen,he was looking up and reveal what he saw but unaware of what happen to him being stoned.
Hi Pierre,Matt 22:31-32 NIV
31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”Doesn't this imply that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had been resurrected? How about Moses and Elijah? One's body was never found, and the other was seen being taken up in a whirlwind from heaven:
2 Kings 2:11 NIV
11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.Not to mention that they both were present at Jesus' transfiguration.
Is there something wrong with these scriptures? I get confused because Jesus also told Nicodemus that no one has gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven…..the Son of Man. And Jesus is called the “firstborn from the dead”.
I guess Jesus could have been saying that no one now present on earth has gone into heaven. And if Elijah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never went to Sheol, but were instead lifted right from life on earth to life in heaven, then Jesus would be the first to go from “real” death to heaven.
I don't know for sure Pierre. What do you think?
peace and love,
mike
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
