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Hi JA,
You happily prate your myths and legends yet somehow feel you are the touchstone for truth that is infallible?
What givesQuote (barley @ July 23 2010,14:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 23 2010,10:49) Hi All, This thread is ONLY for discussing whether or not Phillipians 2 implies Jesus pre-existed.
Please don't post your opinions on the matter as a whole, but limit them ONLY to your understanding of Phil 2.
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.I say it's clear evidence of Jesus' pre-existence. What say you all?
mike
No, this section of scripture does not imply at all that Jesus Christ preexisted.What, pray tell, would lead anyone to that conclusion?
Is that he was found in the form of God? I was found in the form of my parents, I was not found in the form of a lizard. My parents were immigrants from Lithuania. They esteemed their culture. But now they were in the USA. I was in a position to esteem the Lithuanian culture more than the USA. I choose to be an American more than a Lithuanian. I enjoy the fact that I have a Lithuanian background, but I am an American.
Jesus Christ could have lived like a spoiled brat, seeing that he is the only begotten son of God, but for him,loving God, by keeping His commandments was his choice. He chose the life of a servant to God. He did not exalt himself, he humbled himself to serve God and therefore humanity. The context of these verses is an exhortation for us to serve God. Jesus Christ chose to serve God, so should we. Paul, likewise, says I had all the religious credentials any one would want, yet when I learned of Jesus Christ, those credentials became dung, compared to what Christ is to me. The subject is service to God, which Jesus Christ most vividly illustrated.
There is nothing in those verses or in the context that would suggest preexistence.
Who were JC's parents? God and Mary. Therefore it follows that he would be found in the form of God.
Barely……….you are absolutely right Paul's was not talking about any preexistent existence prior to Jesus' berth on earth, the context easily reveals that. When Paul wrote that, Jesus had already experienced his Human condition So Paul was explaining Jesus' preexistent state while he was a man on earth , when he as a man he had the nature of GOD (IN) Him and power of GOD was with him, he was existing in the form or state, But Jesus did use it to makes himself equal with God.Many would used that power to make themselves a GOD but Jesus did not , instead he took on the form of a servant and walked in humility before his GOD and Our GOD and did that WILL not his own WILL, but the will of him who sent him. The Spirit of GOD the FATHER (IN) Jesus caused Him to follow the Fathers ever Wish in life.
This is Paul's Point this is the mind we need to have in us also. The same mind that was in Jesus our Lord, Trying to use these scriptures to try to shore up some preexistent false theology won''t work , because it pulls the whole point out of context that Paul was making. IMO
peace and love………………………..gene
Gene,
When was the Son 'something' in the flesh and then made himself 'nothing?' We do know that He had glory with the Father before flesh. At that time He was 'something'…He had glory and was at the side of His Father. When He was made in human likeness, i.e. when He became man, is when He made Himself 'nothing.' imo5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.Jesus was a son of a poor carpenter and lived humbly and simply, no huge following, nobody waving palm branches calling Him king till after the baptism and His ministry began. The nobody in the flesh became a somebody in the flesh and then became the king with a kingdom of saints after the flesh. So you see, before flesh, He had glory. During flesh, He started out lowly and did not become less but more. Then of course, after flesh, He was even more than before flesh.
LU,
Gene and some others, Martian, for one, I think, are putting themselves in severe danger but none the less, we should be mindful not to pursue them too much lest we get drawn into sinful state chasing them down their rabbit hole of sin of denying that Christ came in the Flesh AS THE SCRIPTURE SAYS and that they steadfastly deny exactly as Scriptures says some would – and can Scripture be denied?
JA……………..More of your garbage, You have no idea what you are saying, I or martian do not deny Jesus was a flesh and blood being, it is you who are doing what the Gnostic's were doing, giving Jesus a superhuman or demigod status not us . So you like all preexistences as will as Trinitarians are Antichrist, just as John said, you deny Jesus' Human (beginnings) and therefore deny his humanity. Moving Jesus (EXACT) likeness from ours is the real sin here, you are quick to accuse other but fail to see your error. Go read 2 Ths 2, slowly and let it sink in this time. You as well as all Preexistences are part of creating the (IMAGE) of the Man of Sin, because you are elevating Jesus to a GOD Status or some superhuman or demigod status, either way you are exactly as John said denying Jesus as coming into existence through the flesh.
peace and love…………………………..gene
Quote (Lightenup @ July 23 2010,16:25) Gene,
When was the Son 'something' in the flesh and then made himself 'nothing?' We do know that He had glory with the Father before flesh. At that time He was 'something'…He had glory and was at the side of His Father. When He was made in human likeness, i.e. when He became man, is when He made Himself 'nothing.' imo5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.Jesus was a son of a poor carpenter and lived humbly and simply, no huge following, nobody waving palm branches calling Him king till after the baptism and His ministry began. The nobody in the flesh became a somebody in the flesh and then became the king with a kingdom of saints after the flesh. So you see, before flesh, He had glory. During flesh, He started out lowly and did not become less but more. Then of course, after flesh, He was even more than before flesh.
LU……….When was Jesus in the “form or Nature of GOD? was it before He was born on earth or was it Here on earth as a human being , you forcing the text to say before he was on earth, Pauls was not talking about Jesus existence before his berth but after his berth as a human being who had GODS Nature (IN) him, He could have used that nature to try to be equal with God and there by robbing God, of His glory , but he did not do that , That is all Paul's point is , it had nothing to do with any preexistence before Jesus was on earth at all. That is a false assumption fostered by trinitarians and preexistences. IMOpeace and love to you and yous………………….gene
Mike…………You have fail to make Phil 2, a proof text of Jesus' preexistence before his earthly berth. Because you can not show that Paul was speaking before His assent ion on earth or Before he was ever born on earth as you and JA and T8 (ASSUME) it is saying. IMO
So where do we go from Here brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (barley @ July 23 2010,14:40) Who were JC's parents? God and Mary. Therefore it follows that he would be found in the form of God.
Hi barley,How exactly then did he come to “be made” in human likeness AFTER he was in the form of God? You are saying because he was God's Son even in the flesh, we can say he was “in the form of God”, right? So what did he “empty himself” of to “be made” in human likeness?
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 24 2010,01:22) So where do we go from Here brother.
Well Gene,It would help if you at least TRY to answer my response to your first post here. Or maybe Kathi's question which is in line with one of mine:
If he WAS in human form while he was “in the form of God”, then how could he “make himself nothing” by “being made in human form”?
peace and love,
mikeps, go invite your brother martian to come play here!
The whole point of this thread is to do what you've been asking to be done in the pre-existence thread…….one scripture at a time. Let's do this thing brother. I've got at least 5 more scriptures waiting when we're done with Phil.Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 23 2010,11:27) Strong's says, morphe 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision 2) external appearance
This would fit in with Jesus being the exact visible representation of the invisible God.
The same Greek word is used in Mark 16:12,
12Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.
mike
Hi:But you are saying that here “form of God” was as spirit. A spirit is invisible except as manifested through the works that are done.
And how does Jesus humble himself from this manifestation?
Paul was teaching the church about humility by virtue of the example that Jesus through the life that he lived has given us. He was the Son of the Living God and His Christ with the authority to judge humanity, but he did not let this position of authority as God's Christ go to his head, but he rather gave his life so that even the most wicked sinner can be forgiven.
The scripture states, “who being in the Form of God”. That is present tense during his ministry on earth not in some remote past. How would that be an example to us if that is what is meant?
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Marty,
Glad you joined in!
You and barley and Gene all have the same basic “rebuttal” of Phil 2. But I haven't seen any of you answer the question that both Kathi and I have asked:
If he WAS in human form while he was “in the form of God”, then how could he “make himself nothing” by “being made in human form”?
John 5:37 says,
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,Do you notice Jesus doesn't say “no one has seen his form”? He says “YOU” haven't seen his form. And in Deut 4:12 and 4:15, God talks about how “people” never saw him take any form. But does that mean he doesn't have a spirit “form”? Maybe all angels and God and any other spiritual creatures that might exist have individual distiguishable “forms” that humans just can't see.
mike
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2010,17:48) Hi MB,
God was in Him.
He spoke and acted as God.
Hi Nick,Yes, God's spirit filled him as it did many prophets of old. Which of them were “in the form of God” while they were human? And which of them “made themselves nothing by being MADE in the form of a human” after they already WERE human?
mike
O.K. let me see if I can give my two cent. Phil. 2 states that He emptied Himself. The Question is of what did He emptied Himself of. When we read in John 17:5 we can tell that He was with the Father and had a glory. Now we do know that He is a Spirit being now…… and most agree with that. So why is it therefore so hard to believe that it is that glory which He had, He has now, and more. That is what He emptied Himself of. He gave up to be a Spirit Being like His Father and became like Servant, a flesh body….. For us…..I also want to say that in order to be with Jehovah God, He had to be Spirit Being. No flesh and blood could be with Jehovah God. He cannot look on Sin. And in this flesh we will sin…Because Jesus knew where He came from, He did not sin….Also John 1:1 and Rev. 19:13 shows us also that He was with God. Most don't want to believe that He was God. I see God as a title. He came forth from God and therefore is of God, created by God, not like us. We are created out of the dust of the earth….. We should thank Jesus every day that He emptied Himself of being with God, to save us……However that will not change in what He was and what He is now. Rev. 19:16 tells us that He is : “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS……..And He will return as that….. Irene
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What did he empty himself of?
There is your context. Start there.Mike
Here is the Article you refused to read on the other thread. You going to ignore it again?
Philippians 2:5-9by Juan Baixeras
This verse has been used to try and prove the Trinity and the preexistence of Christ. The argument is that according to the verse, Jesus did not consider it robbery to be equal with God. The second argument is that Jesus being God, emptied himself of his divinity when he came as Jesus. We will look at both of these claims and in the process we will give you what I believe to be the correct interpretation of this verse.
Let me start by saying that this verse is probably the most written about verse in the Bible. It has been the topic of many a Bible scholar, and certain interpretations of this verse have caused quite a commotion.
Before starting let me state the best way to understand these verses. This hymn is best understood within the framework of Adam Christology (James Dunn, Christology in the Making pg. 114-115). Though the hymn is obviously about Christ, it defines him against the background of Adam’s failure. The hymn presupposes Adam’s fateful choice, his desire to “be like God,” (Gen. 3:5), his failure, and his downfall. Jesus is the second Adam. Where the first Adam failed, the second Adam is victorious. Where the first Adam sought his own interests, the second Adam remained obedient to the point of death.
This Adam Christology is a feature of Paul’s writings (Rom.5:12 – 21, 1Cor. 15: 20 – 28) and of early Christianity. For example, the temptation stories in Mathew and Luke have in their background the temptation of Adam in Genesis. Luke traces the genealogy of Jesus back to Adam. Adam’s ancestry is listed as the “son of God.” It is interesting that Luke’s genealogy of Jesus, ending with Adam, is immediately followed with the temptation story. For the early church, the significance of Jesus was understood, at least in part, in light of the downfall of Adam. (Scott A. Deane, MATS, Philippians 2:6-11, Radical Reformation Vol.7 No.1, 1997)
As in any exegesis of any verse, one must always interpret it in the context in which it was written. So at this time please open your Bible and read from verse 1 – 12. First we are going to cover the context and then the point of this hymn, and then we will do a line by line exegesis.
Let’s review the context first. In verse 1-2 Paul is telling the Philippians to be of the same mind, to show the same love. In verse 3 he tells them not to do anything out of selfishness or vainglory, but to be humble. He tells them to regard OTHERS as more important than themselves. To consider other’s interests as more important than their own. All this is happening during a time of persecution.
Then in verses 5-8 he uses the life of Christ as an example of what he is speaking about. He tells them to have the same attitude as Christ.
The point of the hymn in this context is that suffering, humility, and obedience to God for the faith leads ultimately to exaltation.
Now that we have covered the context in verses 1-5, we are ready for the first controversy in verse 6. There are two different interpretations. The first is from the KJV, it states:
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”
The majority of Bibles including the NAB, NASB, NRSV, NIV, and The Amplified Bible, just to name a few, interpret it as:
“Who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.”
First let us get an understanding of the phrase “Who being in the form of God.” The key being the word “form.”
The word form (morphe) and image (eikon) are interchangeable. R.P. Martin (“Morphe in Philippians 2:6,” Expository Times, Vol. 70, no.6, March 1959, 183-184) states:
“That morphe and eikon are equivalent terms that are used interchangeably in the LXX.”
James Dunn states in Christology in the Making pg.115:
“It has long been recognized that morphe and eikon are near synonyms.”
An understanding of image will help us in the understanding of form. Let us look at their definitions. According to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means:
Form (morphe) – nature. Comes from the base of the word meros that means to have an allotment, a division or share, piece, portion.
Image (eikon) – likeness, or figuratively a representation.
Being in the form or image of something means that it is not the original. If I have something that is in the form or image of a lion, then it is not really a lion. If it was, I would not have to say that it was in the form or image of a lion, I would just say that it is a lion.
Man was made in the image of God. God made man as a representation of himself. Someone he could share a piece of himself (having the spirit of God in us) with.
Gen.1:27 – “God created man in his image.”
1 Cor. 11:7 – “Because he (man) is the image and glory of God.”
These verses do not mean that because we are the image of God that we are God. It means that God made us with his attributes. We have the ability to think (do his will) and to love like God.
These next two verses do not mean that Jesus is God in the same way that the verses above do not mean that man is God. They mean that Jesus is the image of God because as God’s anointed he does the will of God and loved us (as God does) enough to die for us. Jesus and God’s purpose are one and the same. Our purpose should be the same as Christ’s. This is what Paul is telling the Philippians in verse 5, to have the same attitude (the image) as Christ.
2 Cor. 4:4 – “Christ who is the image of God.”
Colossians 1:1 – “He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God.”
When we are reborn or renewed we then bear the image of Christ and of God (because they are one in purpose) because we put away the old self and put on the new self which now does the will of God.
Colossians 3:10 says it clearly:
“Stop lying to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed, for knowledge, in the image of its creator.”
This next verse is also a good example. The disobedient are said to have a form of godliness. It doesn’t mean that they are God, in this verse it means that they pretend to be like God (righteous), but in reality are not.
2 Tim. 3:5 – “Having a form (the disobedient) of godliness but denying its power.”
The KJV basically says that Jesus did not think anything wrong of being considered equal with God. This is contrary to the Adam Christology that is being applied and in total contradiction to the context of this chapter which is humility, selflessness, to be a slave of, not to be equal with, especially with God.
Now let’s see how this understanding of the word “form” fits in this passage. Let us look at both verses again.
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”
“Who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.”
Let us review the context of this chapter. It is about being humble. It is about putting others ahead of oneself. Of making others more important than oneself like Christ did. Christ put God’s interests (God’s will) and ours ahead of himself just like we should put other’s interests ahead of our own.
The KJV interpretation of verse 6 goes completely contrary to that idea. It does not convey humility, it states the opposite, grandeur. It says that although Jesus was like, or represented God, that he did not think that there was anything wrong in being considered equal to God. It is basically hypocritical.
The other Bible interpretations are in line with the context of the chapter. Their sense is determined by their role within Adam Christology.
The conclusion to these verses is that Jesus is the second Adam created in the image of God as Adam was. As Adam, Jesus is
in esteemed position, they are both called “son of God.” Like Adam, Jesus was faced with a choice: seek his own interests or God’s; obey or rebel.Adam’s temptation was that he wanted to be like God (Gen. 3:5). Adam sought to grasp (the NRSV has grasp as, “something to be exploited”) equality with God. But Jesus in contrast to Adam’s selfish choice did not seek to usurp God’s authority but instead took the position of a slave to God and obeyed him to the point of death.
Now on to verse 7-9. It says:
“Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness, and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him.”
Let me start with the phrase “he emptied himself.” Many people use this verse in defense of the Trinity when confronted with questions such as
“If Jesus is omniscient then how come he does not know the day of his return?
Their answer is that Jesus doesn’t know that because he emptied himself of His divinity when he came as Jesus.
This idea has an actual name. It is called the Kenotic Doctrine. Before going on, let me show you the Creed of the Council of Chalcedon, which is the definition of Jesus which all good Trinitarians adhere to, Catholic and Protestant.
Definition of the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD)
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both.
In 1951, in celebration of the 1500th birthday of the Chalcedon Creed, Pope Pius the 12th wrote the following on the Kenotic Doctrine:
Encyclical of Pope Pius the 12th
on the Council of Chalcedon September 8, 1951
(paragraph 29).There is another enemy of the faith of Chalcedon, widely diffused outside the fold of the Catholic religion. This is an opinion for which a rashly and falsely understood sentence of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Philippians (2:7), supplies a basis and a shape. This is called the kenotic doctrine, and according to it, they imagine that the divinity was taken away from the Word in Christ. It is a wicked invention, equally to be condemned with the Docetism opposed to it. It reduces the whole mystery of the Incarnation and Redemption to empty the bloodless imaginations.
So what does he emptied himself mean? It means that Jesus being in an esteemed position (The Messiah, the king of Israel, Jn 1:41 & 49) emptied himself of all the rights, power and privilege that were his and instead humbled himself like a slave to the will of God.
The Amplified Bible states Verse 7 as:
“But stripped (emptied) himself of all privilege and rightful dignity so as to assume the guise of a servant.”
Remember, Jesus was and is the Messiah, the right hand of God. And as God’s right hand he is anointed with incredible power. But he chose not to use this power but instead yielded to the will of God to the point of death. An example that comes to mind is when Jesus is about to be arrested. It states:
Matthew 26:53 – “Do you think that I cannot call upon my Father and he will not provide me at this moment with more than twelve legions of angels?”
He could have summoned them, but he didn’t. He could have used his esteemed position to call for angels to protect him, but he chose to empty himself of his right and privilege in obedience to God. Now let us look at the remaining verses.
2:7: “Coming in human likeness, and found human in appearance.”
People have really gone overboard with this verse. They will say that since in the previous verse God emptied himself of his divinity, that then he appeared as a human, Jesus.
How this fits in a context of living a life of humility and obedience is beyond me. It just doesn’t.
The NAB which is a Catholic Bible that believes in the preexistence of Christ has this to say about verse 7:
2:7: “It is also possible to interpret so as to exclude any reference to preexistence and to take vv 6-8 as parallel stanzas about Jesus’ human state.”
Let’s first review what the word translated as “likeness” (eidos) means. Its literal translation is “fashion.” Let’s see what Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words has to say about this word and its usage in this verse.
Fashion (eidos) – “In general the state and relations of a human being, so that in the entire mode of his appearance he made himself known and was recognized as a man.”
In the simplest of terms, this definition states that Jesus was just like us. Paul speaks of the same thing in Hebrew 2:17-18, it states:
“Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in all things, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propiations for the sins of the people. For since he himself was tempted in that which he has suffered, he is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.”
All verse 7 is saying is that Jesus refused to use his esteemed position for his own interests, instead, even though he was human like the rest of us, he resisted the temptation to follow his own desires and chose to follow the will of God, to obey God to his death.
This fits in with Paul’s Adam – Jesus comparison. The first Adam was tempted and failed. The second Adam was tempted and was victorious.
“Just like sin and death entered the world though a man named Adam, eternal life was also brought to us through another man named Jesus (paraphrasing Romans 5:12 – 21).
Now we end our exegesis with verse 9. Paul is using Jesus as an example of how to live. Jesus was tempted and he suffered, but he obeyed even when it cost him his life. Because of his obedience God has greatly exalted him. This is the message that Paul is conveying to the Philippians. Be like Christ, follow his example. He was human just like us, which means that it is humanly possible for us to live a life of obedience to God if we set our minds to it. And just like he has been rewarded, so will you. You too will be exalted ( resurrected).
This chapter along with the episode of the temptation of Christ in the gospels makes no sense if Jesus is a Godman. It makes no sense for Paul to urge on the Philippians to imitate Christ if Christ is a Godman. How can they, they are not Godmen.
The temptation of Christ and Philippians 2 both give us encouragement that sin can be overcome even in this age if we follow God’s will instead of our own as Jesus did. Jesus although he was the Messiah was human just like us, and he proved to the world that it is poss
ible to follow the will of God if we choose to. And if we do, then we too will be exalted by God.Conclusion
Philippians 2: 5-9 has nothing to do with Christ being God or his preexistence. Those interpretations are the work of people with preconceived ideas trying to find any verse in the Bible to substantiate their claims.
In reality these verses are very simple. They are very practical verses written to the Philippians on how they are to conduct themselves in this world. How are we to conduct ourselves? Not by imitating Adam who lost everything by his attempted grab for power (his own desires), but by imitating Christ who through his humility and obedience to God (God’s will) gained it all.
God bless you.
This page copyright © 2000 by Juan Baixeras
Mike………..The key is the word “form” to me that is simply saying Jesus was existing as a human being having fullness of the Spirit of GOD (IN) Him and Power with it. He had been given great authority by GOD the Father and He could have us that power to his own glory, but he did not think that way to be equal with God and taking some of the fathers Glory to himself as Moses did at the waters of Mirabah and broke faith with GOD remember. Jesus did not regard having equality spiritually with GOD that way, but realizing he was a human being emptied himself of those thoughts and took on a human perspective in relationship to GOD , So he humbled himself as it were and as all humans must come to do and became sub-servant to GOD as we all must learn to do. Jesus was a Man and was our example of how a men should live as a sons of GOD.
You and other preexistences are trying to take Paul's message to a complete different subject then what Paul was speaking about.
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
I put up a poll to vote on principles of scriptural interpretation that I endorsed in a previous thread. From mike I get comments instead of a vote. (even though it is a poll) He cannot vote on them as he cannot disagree with them because they are simple and honest tools to use for interpretation and if he agrees with them his doctrine would fail their test.
Mike,
I am not sure how much time or effort I am going to put into debating with someone that shows so much disdain for the teaching of becoming like Christ that you compare it with 3 Y/O’s imitating monkeys.
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