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Mike……….Part 1………..the word being is (existing) in the nature of God, Jesus existed on earth as a HUMAN BEING with the Nature of GOD (IN) HIM. YOU change PAULA whole POINT of HIS Context , right off, Paul was not talking about Jesus Preexistence as a HUMAN Being but HIS Preexistence ON EARTH with the NATURE of GOD IN HIM>
Part 2……….He sure was a HUMAN BEING at the point. Where did Paul ever say He was not a Human Being At that POINT as you falsely (ASSUME).
Part 3……… Took the Nature of a slave, Yes he was still a human being at that point also.
PART 4………. AND WAS (MADE) Question how was he (MADE) in the LIKENESS of a HUMAN BEING. Answer BY NOT TRYING TO ROD GOD AND BE EQUAL WITH HIM, BUT HE TOOK ON THE NATURE OF A MAN ANOTHER WORD HE HUMBLED HIMSELF NOT TRYING TO ELEVATE HIMSELF BECAUSE HE HAD THE NATURE OF GOD (IN) HIM A NATURE THAT HE NEVER DONE AWAY WITH BY THE WAY, JESUS existed with two natures on of GOD and One of Man He had His Human Nature at berth, He had his Godly Nature when He recieved It at the Jordan river where he became the CHRISTOS the anointed of GOD, that Nature was then Present (IN) Him He never God rid of that Nature but took on His Human Nature which he was born with, and became a slave as we all must. None of this is talking about Jesus Pre-earth existence.
That is all you have to do is read the whole thing and you should Know what Paul was addressing and None of this had to do with Jesus Pre- earth existence. But His existence on earth. But true to colors You preexistence have to draw straws and force texts to meet those false teachings.
Mike………..Here is something maybe you have not considered.
Phi 2:6…………Who (BEING) IN THE NATURE OF GOD.
hoop-ar'-kho
From G5259 and G756 ; to begin under (quietly), that is , (COME INTO EXISTENCE), ( be present or at hand); expletively, to exist (as copula or subordinate to an adjective, participle, adverb or preposition, or as auxiliary to principle verb); – after behave, live.
It appears 17 times in scriptures as BEGIN ,13 times, as after 1, as have 1,as having ,1, as live 1,
Jesus began his life one earth not some where else, He also began to exist with the nature of God from the Jordan River when He recieved the Holy Spiirt or the Nature of GOD. Just as all who have GOD Spirit in them Have GODS NATURE IN them also. But we should not go around trying to be equal with GOD because we have that Nature in US, but we should humble ourselves as Jesus did and take on a nature of a slave or servant of God and Jesus , that was Paul's Point. why try to change it into something else not said?
So from all of the it appears it was talking about Jesus life while on earth not some Past time period as You preexistence Presume to to mean. So if i say Jesus begin in the Nature of GOD i am addressing his life on EARTH not some past falsely presumed life. By just reading the complete chapter and understanding Paul's Point should be proof enough , but MYSTERY RELIGION is always are looking for some “HIDDEN” Manning to advance their dogmas. IMO
and now you resort to calling me a Swine. because i don not agree with you , you pearls are not pearls at all but the products of MYSTERY RELIGION> IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
Gene! How come you did not answer my question in John 17:5 tread?
And BTW here too…..No Human being will ever see Jehovah God and Jesus is a Spirit Being now, which He was before the world was also….Phil. 2:6 tells us that He was in the form of God and verse 7 says that He made Himself like a Servant. Not what you say, you interpret the way you see fit and that you do with everything about Jesus. He was never a mere man. He is and was the literal Son of God and made out of the dust of the earth like we are….. You also calling Jesus a liar when you say that John 17:5 Jesus went back to what He was before the world was. That is what He asked His Father to do. And that is what He is, not a Human Being, but Spirit Being like His Father….Otherwise He would not sit at the right hand of Jehovah God….. .IreneHi Gene,
Thanks for the actual answer to the point. Now let's see if that answer makes sense. You said that:
Part 1……Jesus was a human being who was “in the nature of God”.
Why then does Part 4 say Jesus “was made in the likeness of a human being”?
Gene was born as a human being. Then he received God's Holy Spirit upon him and “had the nature of God”. But instead of thinking he could ever be equal to God just because he was filled with God's Holy Spirit, he emptied himself of those foolish thoughts, becoming a slave to his God instead of striving for equality with Him, and WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING.
What? But I thought Gene already WAS a human being…..how then could he be MADE INTO ONE?
That last word “anthropos” is going to destoy your theory no matter who we fill in for Jesus. If anyone already WAS a human being, it could not then be said that they were MADE INTO A HUMAN BEING.
Can't you see that? And thank you for pointing out what I was trying to say before. The Greek word “huparcho” is translated as “BEGIN” 13 times according to your source – more times than it is translated as any other English word, right? So it could logically say “Who BEGINNING in the nature of God…….emptied himself…..and was made in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING.” In fact, I remember posting this exact sentence many times, but decided that instead of arguing with you about what “huparcho” could have meant, I would just focus on the “anthropos”, which makes the last part of verse 7 say, “and was made in the likeness of a human being.”
But if you like “beginning” better than “existing”…….good, so do I. But now it says, “Who BEGINNING in the nature of God”, so your theory that he didn't get that “nature of God” until the Jordan falls flat.
And on a personal note: As long as you keep discussing the actual scriptures and points I make instead of ignoring them and posting insults, I will not consider discussing scripture with you as “casting pearls before swine”. It's okay that we disagree, or understand a scripture differently, as long as we can solidly address the other's points. But when one of us is showing scripture and solid logic, and the other one is not even commenting about those scriptures or logic, but instead just keeps posting the same things over and over, THEN it does become a case of “casting pearls before swine”.
So Gene, how can any human being be MADE in the likeness of a human being?
peace and love,
mikeMike……….I don't like beginning , I like as the meaning say (come into Existence) Jesus was a Human who came into existence with the nature of GOD (At the Jordan river) when he recieved the Holy Spirit of GOD. The same as WE do when we recieve GOD'S Spirit. But don't you see you make a difference between Jesus and Us right there. By saying Jesus had that Nature before his existence on earth, But if that were true then why would he have to recieve the spirit at the Jordan in the first place. He would already have had it right?. Again your pre-earth existence fail even in the historical recorded events that took place in Jesus' life on earth.
Jesus was made in the likeness by his human berth, just as we are, not one bit of difference. Jesus alway had his human nature and still does have it, He is still the son of man, He also had the nature of GOD (IN) him as all who have Gods Spirit in them do. No difference , Jesus was our example who to life with that spirit (IN) us.
Your false MYSTERY RELIGION remove Jesus from our exactness and is a destroyer of the true Faith. It is Antichrist just as much as the Trinity doctrine is, it comes from the same roots of separation. God did not give us a SON, so that we could remove his likeness from us.
Isa 9:4 For unto (US) is a Child is (BORN) unto (US) a (SON) is given; ……., . Jesus was born a SON OF MAN and still is a SON OF MAN and always will be a SON OF MAN. Jesus only existed in the Plan and WILL of GOD until his berth on earth , just like Cyrus and Jeremiah and John the Baptist and others God Brought into existence in the flesh after he foreordained them then they were manifested (brought) into existence as men of the human race. Not some preexisting beings and then Morphed into a human being, as you and the rest of the Preexistences and Trinitarians preach and teach. Those false teaching only serve to separate us from Jesus and His likeness they most certainly are the Spirit of Antichrist Spoken of by John. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 18 2010,01:06) Jesus was made in the likeness by his human berth, just as we are, not one bit of difference
So your wish is for Phil 2:6-7 to say, “Jesus was made in the likeness of a human being. Then he had the nature of God, but emptied himself and took on the nature of a slave.”The problem is that is NOT what it says. The nature of God came first, then the emptying, THEN “made in the likeness of a human being”.
If you could take the last sentence and put it first, it would all work out for you. Then I would have to resort to one of the dozen or so OTHER scriptures that cleary say Jesus pre-existed.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter because you CAN'T take the last sentence and put it first. So I'm afraid it says he existed in the nature of God, THEN emptied himself, THEN was made as a human.
Sorry dude, that's what the scripture says and you have no logical way around it.
mike
Mike………..Right the nature of GOD came after he was a HUMAN Being with a HUMAN Nature, at the Jordan river and He was lead away into the wilderness and Humbles himself in obedience to GOD as he did throughout his whole ministry. I have show you where he could have used that to rob GOD with the resurrection of Lazarus . But you failed to understand what i was saying . Mike go read what barely wrote you concerning your trying to zero in on single words , and losing the context of what is being talked about as your are doing with Phil 2, Paul was not referencing a Pre- earth Jesus at all. Context, Context, Context. You are doing exactly as it say , “straining out a gnat, and swallowing a camel. IMO
peace and love………………………….gene
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 16 2010,08:26) Gene! How come you did not answer my question in John 17:5 tread? And BTW here too…..No Human being will ever see Jehovah God and Jesus is a Spirit Being now, which He was before the world was also….Phil. 2:6 tells us that He was in the form of God and verse 7 says that He made Himself like a Servant. Not what you say, you interpret the way you see fit and that you do with everything about Jesus. He was never a mere man. He is and was the literal Son of God and made out of the dust of the earth like we are….. You also calling Jesus a liar when you say that John 17:5 Jesus went back to what He was before the world was. That is what He asked His Father to do. And that is what He is, not a Human Being, but Spirit Being like His Father….Otherwise He would not sit at the right hand of Jehovah God….. .Irene
Irene………A SPIRIT is not a BEING it is SPIRIT (INTELLECT) and it is what is (IN) Beings. If you don;t understand this then we cant go forward. GOD is SPIRIT completely Spirit and live vicariously (IN) his creation. Spirit is the force or power (WITHIN) a Person, it is NOT the Person HIMSELF because a person has a BODY + SPIRIT that equals a SOUL or PERSON Same thing. The only one that can exist outside a Body is the LORD GOD HIMSELF. And He co-habits and can live (IN) his creation , remember Jesus said the FATHER is (IN) ME also Remember when Thomas said MY LORD (AND) MY GOD, the light turned on He then realized the GOD the FATHER WAS (ACTUALLY) (IN) JESUS.The only place where a person can get that spirit is itself a being is where it say and GOD creates his angles Spirits and sends them forth. This is taken to mean and god creates his angles spirit (beings) , but that is wrong what it is saying is God creates his angels (SPIRITS)(intellects) in them and sends them forth to minister, also the word angel can also mean messengers. Mystery Religion believes many false Mysterious concepts. IMO
PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU AND GEORG………………….gene
I haven't read what barley wrote yet, but in this instance, the whole context is made clear BY THAT SINGLE LAST WORD. That last word is “human being”, and it says he was made as one AFTER his was in the form of God and emptied himself.
You can throw every other scripture of the NT at that one word and try to explain it away with your OPINION of what Paul was teaching……but it still all boils down to that last word “anthropos” in this case.
And until you come up with a reason it could say, “AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING” without it meaning Jesus pre-existed as something other than a HUMAN BEING, you and barley and Martian are just spouting your OPINIONS and WISHES, which are not enough to override what the scripture actually says.
Refute the scripture itself or give it up Gene.
peace and love,
mikeMike……..the context is not made clear by the last word brother it is made clear by the complete chapter zeroing in on just one word is a mistake Mike it cam get you into all kinds of wrong understandings in scriptures. Try to produce you logic from the complete text not just one word Brother .
peace and love ……………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 19 2010,13:06) Mike……..the context is not made clear by the last word brother it is made clear by the complete chapter zeroing in on just one word is a mistake Mike it cam get you into all kinds of wrong understandings in scriptures. Try to produce you logic from the complete text not just one word Brother . peace and love ……………………………gene
Hi Gene,You are mistaken if you think I came to the conclusion that Jesus pre-existed from one scripture. There are at least 15 of them that clearly spell it out…..UNLESS you are so bent on making him be your equal that you go out of your way to deliberately misinterpret them – like JA said you were doing.
The Pharisees had the same problem as you have. They couldn't imagine Jesus being anything more than a man. They didn't want to hear anything that said he was more than “equal” to them. They didn't want to believe when he said “something far greater than Jonah is here”. (Luke 11:32) They couldn't grasp it when he said he was before Abraham. They closed their ears when he asked them how David could call him “Lord” if he was David's literal offspring. This happened so the prophecy would come true that although hearing, these people would not understand and although seeing, they would not believe.
And you are like them Gene. You are hearing and not understanding, seeing yet refusing to believe. Do you realize (pay attention Hebrew cultural guru Martian) that to the Hebrews there was no one above Abraham except God. In the resurrection, it would be Abraham who was the lord over David, and David who would be lord over all who came after him, including Jesus. No one who geneaologically came after could ever be higher than the ones in the same family that came before.
Abraham would never call his offspring Jacob his “lord”. Judah would never call David his “lord”. And David would never call Jesus his “Lord” had Jesus not actually been before him. That was the whole point of Jesus bringing their attention to Psalm 110. They thought that since the Messiah was to come FROM David, he would naturally call David HIS lord, not the other way around. That is why Jesus said to them, “If the Messiah is the SON of David, why is it then that David calls HIM “my Lord”?
It's much more than one word for me Gene, but that word “anthropos” is sure the icing on the cake, because none of you guys can even come close to “deliberately misinterpreting” that one – no matter how silly you want to make yourselves sound.
peace and love,
mikeMike……..Evidently you don't Know what (CLEARLY Spells out MEANS> I will give you and example of What would (clearly spell out what you are saying) Here it is…………..> JESUS EXISTED AS A (BEING )BEFORE HIS BERTH ON EARTH. I have yet to see that written anywhere in scripture no matter how much you say it is (INFERRED IS (NOT) WRITTEN ANYWHERE. Using phrases and forcing the text to say what it specifically is not saying, like I am Before Abraham I am, or made with human nature and so forth is taking a word and forcing the text to say what you want it to, but does not (SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT)> You are adding this specificness to the text and forcing it, nearly every thing you post is either out of context or can be taken all kind of ways, but nothing (specific)> Have you ever wondered why no Specific Scripture is ever give. You would think that would cause you some concern and maybe cause you some doubt. You don't even seem able to see how your false teachings causes separation in the identity between us and Jesus our BROTHER.
peace and love…………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 21 2010,08:55) Mike……..Evidently you don't Know what (CLEARLY Spells out MEANS> I will give you and example of What would (clearly spell out what you are saying) Here it is…………..> JESUS EXISTED AS A (BEING )BEFORE HIS BERTH ON EARTH. I have yet to see that written anywhere in scripture no matter how much you say it is (INFERRED IS (NOT) WRITTEN ANYWHERE. Using phrases and forcing the text to say what it specifically is not saying, like I am Before Abraham I am, or made with human nature and so forth is taking a word and forcing the text to say what you want it to, but does not (SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT)> You are adding this specificness to the text and forcing it, nearly every thing you post is either out of context or can be taken all kind of ways, but nothing (specific)> Have you ever wondered why no Specific Scripture is ever give. You would think that would cause you some concern and maybe cause you some doubt. You don't even seem able to see how your false teachings causes separation in the identity between us and Jesus our BROTHER. peace and love…………………….gene
geneif Jesus would be your brother ,there would be many things you would see and understand,
since you do not understand them so i figure he is not your brother has you would assume he is.
the fact that you conviction in your wrong views,does not mean they are now true.
Pierre
Tarricca…………..What you figure means nothing to me or any one else Here as far as i am concerned. Because i or anyone els does not conform to your way of thinking is irrelevant , it not about YOUR Thinking it is about the Truth which you don't seem to understand very good. IMO
peace and love……………………gene
Gene wrote:[/quote]
Tarricca…………..What you figure means nothing to me or any one else Here as far as i am concerned. Because i or anyone els does not conform to your way of thinking is irrelevant , it not about YOUR Thinking it is about the Truth which you don't seem to understand very good. IMOpeace and love……………………gene
are you trying to fool anyone??
Pierre
Terricca…………..We are told “Suffer not a Novice to speak”. Try speaking less and listening more you might learn something. IMO
peace and love……………………gene
Gene! I can't find the post you made when you asked me to produce a Scripture in the Old Test. here is what Mike said.
———————————————————
Revelation 3:14 (King James Version)
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.How about these:
Proverbs 8:22-23 NIV
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;23 I was fashioned from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Micah 5:2 NIV
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”As far as I am concerned the New Test. has several Scriptures that prove to me that Jesus was in Heaven before the word was. Not just as plan of God….Irene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 22 2010,08:29) Terricca…………..We are told “Suffer not a Novice to speak”. Try speaking less and listening more you might learn something. IMO peace and love……………………gene
genelook at you ,it did not do any good for you, why should I listen to you,
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 21 2010,01:55) I will give you and example of What would (clearly spell out what you are saying) Here it is…………..> JESUS EXISTED AS A (BEING )BEFORE HIS BERTH ON EARTH. I have yet to see that written anywhere in scripture no matter how much you say it is (INFERRED IS (NOT) WRITTEN ANYWHERE.
Hi Gene,Hmmmmmmm……….. And I don't remember ever reading the scripture that says, “JESUS DIDN'T PRE-EXIST OR HE COULDN'T BE A PROPER EXAMPLE FOR US TO FOLLOW.”
Gene, if you can't answer how someone can be a human being, but then empty himself to be made into a human being, why don't you give up?
You also can't answer how the Word of God could come in the flesh and dwell among us and have the glory of an only begotten Son if it wasn't Jesus.
That's just two of many Gene. If you can't answer these, then why should I go on? All your buddies have given up on these “scripture threads” already because they can't refute what is plainly written. Don't you think you should give up too? I mean, face it man – you keep preaching your wishes to us, and we answer with scriptures. But instead of refuting our understanding of those scriptures, you just repeat your “Wish Sermon” over and over.
Although……you may have some “help” coming. As it turns out, Jodi Lee is also a “non-preexister” and I've invited her to try to answer what you guys have not been able to answer.
peace and love,
mikeHi Mike,
I LOVE Philippians 2!
We see a pattern in the OT of men who are full of pride, not acknowledging the gifts of YHWH, or acknowledging them only for a time and then turning their backs on Him. The King of Tyrus who received power and wisdom from YHWH is the perfect example of this, and he took it so far as to declare himself a god.
We see a pattern actually in ALL of history of men abusing their power. Scripture tells us it is God that raises up kings and cuts them down, He puts down one and exalts another. Men can’t handle fame, money and power, they disgrace themselves and God.
Of all these MEN however we do in fact have one great exception!
Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
The POWER that was bestowed upon Jesus by the Father through the Father’s Spirit, was unlike anything that had ever been given to man. Through these powers that were given to Jesus by the Father, at the river Jordon, Jesus CAME in the FORM of God. Though in that form he was seen as equal having the same powers of His Father, no pride was found in him, rather he was humble, and never used the powers given to him for his own gain, but used them to serve the Father and all of mankind.
Let's get this strait, Jesus was born a human being. We know that the Messiah was a promise made to David that would be one day fulfilled, that included his genes. To deny Jesus our Messiah as coming in the flesh, is to be of the antichrist, as scripture warns us. He is as well called many times the Son of MAN, so we should keep that in mind when reading Philippians 2.
Philippians 2:1 Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, 2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. 4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Paul was giving a message to others who had gifts of the Holy Spirit, people who received powers on Pentecost, such powers as the ability to heal. He was giving them a great example of the mind set the MAN Jesus had, which was tremendous humbleness and service, with no ounce of desire for selfishness and personal gain. Paul says, “Let this MIND be in you which was also in Jesus Christ who….”
HOW were those who Paul was speaking to suppose to be like minded with some spirit son deciding to come to earth and disguise himself as a human being?
Truly such doctrine bears no fruit. The pre-existence doctrine applied to this scripture IMO brings great disgrace to Jesus and the identity of him that causes us to want to bow down to him.
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