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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 13 2010,01:36) Mike……….barely and martian is right you have completely arranged the text to meet you preconceived ideologies and are not being truthful with the text as it is written, you force it to a conclusion that fits yours, but the text does not (actually) say what you infer, that is the point here. Not only that but where there is other text that oppose what you are saying you simply ignore all the other texts that show the opposite of what you are saying and treat them as if they do not exist.
Hi Gene,I'm sorry bro, but these are the actual Greek words and their meanings. I didn't “arrange” anything at all. And where are these other “texts” that oppose my view? That's what I thought this was all about. If you have scriptures that say Jesus didn't pre-exist, bring them up.
peace and love,
mikeMike……..You have failed to produce (ONE) scripture that shows Jesus' preexistence life in any way. You claim Jesus created everything, But in Isaiah 44:24 we are (CLEARLY) told this….> THUS SAITH THE LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed you from the womb, (I) am the LORD that (MAKES ALL THINGS); that stretches forth the heavens (ALONE); the spreads abroad the earth (BY MYSELF) ; Mike do you see the words (ALONE) AND BY (MYSELF), there, now before you pull a KJ on us and go skipping off some where please tell us what does that mean to you. Maybe you need to look up the words (ALONE) and (BY MYSELF) because those words don't seem to be sining in brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2010,14:05) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 13 2010,01:36) Mike……….barely and martian is right you have completely arranged the text to meet you preconceived ideologies and are not being truthful with the text as it is written, you force it to a conclusion that fits yours, but the text does not (actually) say what you infer, that is the point here. Not only that but where there is other text that oppose what you are saying you simply ignore all the other texts that show the opposite of what you are saying and treat them as if they do not exist.
Hi Gene,I'm sorry bro, but these are the actual Greek words and their meanings. I didn't “arrange” anything at all. And where are these other “texts” that oppose my view? That's what I thought this was all about. If you have scriptures that say Jesus didn't pre-exist, bring them up.
peace and love,
mike
Mike……..Yes but i and others have shown you those words in the Greek can mean other things also like (for) or (because of) just as easily as (through) , but you chose to use through because a trinitarian translated it that way to booster his preconceived ideology as you preexistences are doing also. IMOpeace and love…………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 13 2010,16:25) Maybe you need to look up the words (ALONE) and (BY MYSELF) because those words don't seem to be sining in brother. IMO
Hi Gene,And what about all the NT scriptures that say all things are through Jesus? How do you answer Heb 1 which is supposedly about Jesus laying the foundations of the earth? HOw do you answer Proverbs 8 where “wisdom” was the master craftsman and helped with creation?
You said:
Quote Mike……..You have failed to produce (ONE) scripture that shows Jesus' preexistence life in any way.
You are actually right on this one Gene. I didn't produce (ONE), but 3 so far. And the 4th is soon to come. You keep saying no scripture proves Jesus' pre-existence, but you keep ignoring the actual translation of Phil 2:Who beginning in the form of God…….emptied himself…….and was begotten in the likeness of a human being.
Those are the actual Greek words Gene. How in the world do they NOT say Jesus pre-existed?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,14:45) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 13 2010,16:25) Maybe you need to look up the words (ALONE) and (BY MYSELF) because those words don't seem to be sining in brother. IMO
Hi Gene,And what about all the NT scriptures that say all things are through Jesus? How do you answer Heb 1 which is supposedly about Jesus laying the foundations of the earth? HOw do you answer Proverbs 8 where “wisdom” was the master craftsman and helped with creation?
Mike ……..So are we going to believe you trinitarian translated forced text , When the word in the Greek can just as easily mean (FOR) or BECAUSE OF, meets your proof text on the doctrine of preexistence and are we to say that is conclusive proof , and are we to totally ignore the Old Testament When God said He (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF created everything, to meet your teachings are we to throw out the old Testament then or just ignore it in the many place it confirms that GOD (ALONE) Create everything , not to even Mention that this is also said several times in the New testament also. Does it not say the God is the Builder of (ALL) Things or have you also thrown out those scriptures also. You would think that these contradictory scriptures would at least send you a red flag and cause you to reconsider things a little Mike.peace and love…………………….gene
Mike………..Wisdom is (NOT) a Person it is an (ATTRIBUTE) It is being personified to show it is a distinct (ATTRIBUTE) of GOD the FATHER, that has nothing to do with Jesus' Preexistence, Do you see how far of the deep end you can go with that reasoning. Some will swear it is talking about Jesus , even though it is personified as a women and Jesus was a man. There are seven distinct Spirits (Intellects)or (ATTRIBUTES) of one GOD and each can be (seen) as a separate Attribute and they perform different tasks for God.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,15:06) Mike ……..So are we going to believe you trinitarian translated forced text , When the word in the Greek can just as easily mean (FOR) or BECAUSE OF
Hey Gene,I'm still waiting for you to answer the one that says all things are “through him and for him”.
Col 1:16 NET
for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.Can all three of those bolded words be “for”? Please answer this time.
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,15:18) Mike………..Wisdom is (NOT) a Person it is an (ATTRIBUTE) It is being personified to show it is a distinct (ATTRIBUTE) of GOD the FATHER, that has nothing to do with Jesus' Preexistence, Do you see how far of the deep end you can go with that reasoning. Some will swear it is talking about Jesus , even though it is personified as a women and Jesus was a man. There are seven distinct Spirits (Intellects)or (ATTRIBUTES) of one GOD and each can be (seen) as a separate Attribute and they perform different tasks for God.
Okay, we can save the “wisdom” thing for another time.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,15:28) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,15:06) Mike ……..So are we going to believe you trinitarian translated forced text , When the word in the Greek can just as easily mean (FOR) or BECAUSE OF
Hey Gene,I'm still waiting for you to answer the one that says all things are “through him and for him”.
Col 1:16 NET
for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.Can all three of those bolded words be “for”? Please answer this time.
mike
Mike……….Go back and reread this and this time Keep in Mind that it is talking about GOD the FATHER, Not Jesus. All thing were created by God the Father and For GOD the FATHER and Through GOD the Father. Your switching Jesus with GOD the FATHER, Jesus (NEVER) Created anything nor did HE (EVER) do a Miracle either that was (ALL) done BY GOD the FATHER. And God gves His Glory to NO MAN. That is the way it was then and the way it is done now. Jesus said He could do nothing of Himself it was the Father that done the works. So how could Jesus every create the world and the things in it , not to mention GOD said He did it and He did it (ALONE and BY HIS SELF). If you think Jesus did it instead of GOD then you argument is with GOD not Me.Isa 44:24………> Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee (FROM THE WOMB), I am the Lord that makes (ALL) things, that stretches forth the heavens (ALONE); that spreads abroad the earth by (MYSELF).
Now Mike what part of that you do not understand WAS God lying to us , if not then when are you going to accept that as fact and quite trying to skirt around it. If we are to ever go forward we must at least understand this right?
peace and love……………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,19:02) Mike……….Go back and reread this and this time Keep in Mind that it is talking about GOD the FATHER, Not Jesus. All thing were created by God the Father and For GOD the FATHER and Through GOD the Father.
Hi Gene,I have a better idea. Why don't we reread it together?
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Okay Gene, I bolded the parts that prove Paul is talking about Jesus here……not God. What say you?
mike
Mike……….One problem you haven't started from the start of the text , but jumped in mid way and yes by doing that it does appear as if He is talking about Jesus, But you see that is the old trick to force text to meet a persons perceptions.
Mike why don't we start with…>Col 1:12…. GIVING THANKS UNTO (THE father), WHICH HATH (MADE US) meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who has delievered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us (INTO) the Kingdom of his dear Son. 1:14….> in whom we have redemption through his blood even the forgiveness of sins. 1:15..> Who is the image of the invisible GOD, the firstborn (standing in rank) of every creature : Col 1:16… For (now take notice the word By is translated as In in Col1:14, it is also translated as In in Col 1:16, as in in C1:18, as In in Col 1:19, as In in Col 1:21, as in in Col 1:24, as in in Col1:27, as in twice in Col 1:28, as in in Col 1 :29. And is never translated as BY except in Col 1:16 the (ONLY) Place in Col. it is translated as BY. Mike..>think there might have been some mocking around with the text by some over zealous trinitarians and Preexistence translators.
Mike the Scriptures you are trying to make say something, remember brother (IT MUST BE SUBSTANTIATED BY THE OLD TESTAMENT ALSO) saying Jesus created the world and everything in it is NOT> God said He did and He did it Alone and BY HIMSELF. Stick with that Mike, and you will not go wrong brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………….gene
Mike………Out of 536 times the word EV or En is used in scripture not ONCE does KJC say it is used for (BY). If you want the breakdown i can give it to you brother. So a word that is not in the original text is planted there and we are to believe it?
Mike Brother , Jesus did not exist as a Being before His berth on earth (except ) in the plan and foreordained will of GOD. Brother think about what Martian and Kerwin and Barley and i have said brother and come out of this false teaching of the Apostate Churches. Remove yourself from the Trinitarians and their preexistences brothers. They are in great error, Jesus is one of Us he always was and still is , rejoin your personal identity with Jesus and he will accept you brother. Do not separated Jesus the Man from yourself brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 19 2010,16:18) Mike……….One problem you haven't started from the start of the text , but jumped in mid way and yes by doing that it does appear as if He is talking about Jesus, But you see that is the old trick to force text to meet a persons perceptions.
That's a good idea Gene. Except let's do it without your parentesis and inserts. We can hit them as we come to them and that way you can one by one show me why you think certain Greek words should be translated the way you like them, and I can show you the actual definition for those words and we can get to the bottom of it. Sound fair?12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15He is the image of the invisible God,…….
Can we agree that 12 and 13 are about God? But at the end of 13, Paul talks about God's Son, and 14 is all about Jesus. Do you see it that way so far?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 20 2010,02:24) Mike………Out of 536 times the word EV or En is used in scripture not ONCE does KJC say it is used for (BY). If you want the breakdown i can give it to you brother. So a word that is not in the original text is planted there and we are to believe it?
Hi Gene,Not according to my source. Blue Letter Bible says this:
Definition of “en”,
1) in, by, with etc.Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2800 AV — in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 264
And the KJV actually DOES use the word “by” in Col 1:16.
Someone's source is wrong. Do you have a KJV that doesn't say “by” in Col 1:16?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:11) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 20 2010,02:24) Mike………Out of 536 times the word EV or En is used in scripture not ONCE does KJC say it is used for (BY). If you want the breakdown i can give it to you brother. So a word that is not in the original text is planted there and we are to believe it?
Hi Gene,Not according to my source. Blue Letter Bible says this:
Definition of “en”,
1) in, by, with etc.Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2800 AV — in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 264
And the KJV actually DOES use the word “by” in Col 1:16.
Someone's source is wrong. Do you have a KJV that doesn't say “by” in Col 1:16?
mike
Mike ………..Isn't that interesting , my source shows 536 times the word en is translated as (IN) in scripture and Yours shows different so let just go with that word starting in 1col 1:14 do you see it translated as BY there, No but as (IN). Now lets go to verses 16, then 18, then 19,then 21, then 24, then 28, then 29, .Now take notice it is never translated as BY there but as (IN). So what is the obvious conclusion Mike? The word was change by a translator who believed in the preexistence of Jess a s a GOD, who created everything. Come on Mike think about it a little we can see that by what is written there and not by any of our different concordances we can produce. If the writer use the same word (IN) in all those places and ONLY (ONCE) translates it (BY), obviously he was forcing the text . Can we at least agree on that brother? I mean is there some consideration for truth here?
peace and love for you and yours Mike…………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 21 2010,02:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2010,13:11) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 20 2010,02:24) Mike………Out of 536 times the word EV or En is used in scripture not ONCE does KJC say it is used for (BY). If you want the breakdown i can give it to you brother. So a word that is not in the original text is planted there and we are to believe it?
Hi Gene,Not according to my source. Blue Letter Bible says this:
Definition of “en”,
1) in, by, with etc.Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2800 AV — in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 264
And the KJV actually DOES use the word “by” in Col 1:16.
Someone's source is wrong. Do you have a KJV that doesn't say “by” in Col 1:16?
mike
Mike ………..Isn't that interesting , my source shows 536 times the word en is translated as (IN) in scripture and Yours shows different so let just go with that word starting in 1col 1:14 do you see it translated as BY there, No but as (IN). Now lets go to verses 16, then 18, then 19,then 21, then 24, then 28, then 29, .Now take notice it is never translated as BY there but as (IN). So what is the obvious conclusion Mike? The word was change by a translator who believed in the preexistence of Jess a s a GOD, who created everything. Come on Mike think about it a little we can see that by what is written there and not by any of our different concordances we can produce. If the writer use the same word (IN) in all those places and ONLY (ONCE) translates it (BY), obviously he was forcing the text . Can we at least agree on that brother? I mean is there some consideration for truth here?
peace and love for you and yours Mike…………..gene
The KJV is rank with instances of mistranslation in an attempt to support a non scriptural doctrine. Even adding verse to support it.Gene! I am reading this and laughing, you just want to make it your way no matter what!!! Well my friend it does not go that way. It says also that He was the firstborn of all creation. Jehovah God is telling us that we should go under Jesus, there it is save/ He died for us, so we can live. That however does not erase that He was in Heaven with His Father before the world was. Giving you Scriptures just can't cut it with you. I believe that your pride is standing in your way. I too at one time I did exactly that too. So put your own feelings aside and believe the Scriptures. There are several of them, which you and others simple want to deny. Even what Jesus Himself said when He walked this earth….Stop calling Him a liar……!!!!
Also what does it matter if in Him of by Him all were created, He still did!!!! He still is the firstborn of all creation, you cannot take that away from Him….Also read John 1:2 It says that He The Word of God who became Jesus made all. Now are you going to say that it does not say that too? You will just want to find something so you don't have to say, yes I was wrong…. Well it takes a humble person to do that my friend…..Of course to you John 1:1 is not Jesus lets see what do you always say:” The plan of God or the literal word of God…..You are going to be very surprised Jesus will come back as:”The Word of God and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.” Rev. 19″13-16…..
Peace IreneIrene……… Sis, Do you see what your indoctrination has done it wont even let you consider what i was talking about in 1 Col 1……> so you try to divert the truth by changing subject matters, Please stay with this (ONE) thing for Now and then we can move one to the others.
Peace and love to you and Georg……………………………gene
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