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Hi All,
This thread is ONLY for discussing whether or not Phillipians 2 implies Jesus pre-existed.
Please don't post your opinions on the matter as a whole, but limit them ONLY to your understanding of Phil 2.
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.I say it's clear evidence of Jesus' pre-existence. What say you all?
mike
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2010,10:50) Hi MB,
Is what is seen personally as implication relevant?
Hi Nick,Absolutely. We have been over this before. YOUR whole understanding of scripture is based on what YOU infer the words to mean in any praticular verse.
Stay on topic. Do you have an opinion as to what this passage means?
If so, please state it and a reason why if you wish. If not, please don't muddle up the thread.
mike
Mike,
First DEFINE your understanding of what “the FORM OF GOD” is.
This is the crux of the matter for some.
Some have substituted “Nature” for “Form”. Are you allowing this?
Quote (JustAskin @ July 23 2010,11:09) Mike, First DEFINE your understanding of what “the FORM OF GOD” is.
This is the crux of the matter for some.
Some have substituted “Nature” for “Form”. Are you allowing this?
Hi JA,I personally read it to say, “Being a spirit being as is God, he emptied himself and was made a flesh and blood being, as is mankind”.
What do you think? I'll see what the Greek dictionaries say for that word “form” or “nature”.
peace and love,
mikeStrong's says,
morphe 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision 2) external appearance
This would fit in with Jesus being the exact visible representation of the invisible God.
The same Greek word is used in Mark 16:12,
12Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.
mike
Mike,
As far as I see it “Form” simply means “Spirit”.
Jesus was as a “Spirit Being” like God is a Spirit Being.
If it was anything more complicated then John was in the wrong for not explaining it.
Also, look for the qualifier: Where else is it stated that Jesus was “In the Form of God”?
Also, if Jesus was “AS GOD”, emptied himself and came as man, died and was raised again and established as King in his father's Kingdom (for a specified period) can it be summized that he was “Raised to a LOWER position” than that which he left because now he is in a lesser position as being “NOT AS GOD but only an Heir to God”.
For Jesus to be “RAISED to a Higher position” he must have been in a lesser position… He was raised to a HIGHER position OVER HIS BRETHREN…Who are his Brethren…certainly not his EARTHLY Brethren (His Brothers) nor the Disciples because he left them as their Master (I believe, although he also called them Brothers but maybe this was looking to the future).
So, again, over which BRETHREN was he raised? and was he “IN THE FORM OF GOD” after he was Raised from the Dead and is he “In the Form of God” now?
Quote (JustAskin @ July 23 2010,11:51) Mike, As far as I see it “Form” simply means “Spirit”.
Jesus was as a “Spirit Being” like God is a Spirit Being.
If it was anything more complicated then John was in the wrong for not explaining it.
Hi JA,It was Paul that wrote Phillipians, not John.
And I agree with your understanding it meant he was spirit, then became man.
The rest of your post is what I was trying to avoid on this thread. We have all the extra stuff going on in the “Pre-existent” thread. This is supposed to be a way to break down the various beliefs scripture by scripture.
I want to keep this thread ONLY about whether or not you think this one passage talks of Jesus' pre-existence, and why.
peace and love,
mikeMike,
'What you think about preExisting' not pointed at JustAskin, I hope!
Ok about Paul/John (sos' for that – it is 2:17 am in UK – i'm off work and been sleeping most of the day…)
The “Form of God” part is crucial to the understanding and I have asked this a number of time only to find pointless, frivolous, misunderstood posts passed back.
There is nothing “MAGICAL” about the statement. Paul was simply stating that Jesus did not simply come into being as a man born of Mary but had being existing in the “Form of God”, “A Spirit” but some have taken the opportunity to try to claim that Jesus WAS GOD, or WAS IN THE NATURE of GOD, then tried justifying themselves with claims of “Jesus was omnipotent, Jesus was this, that or whatever” but not actually making any sense. Why? Simples… because they were making things up!
Tie everything together – Before – during – and after… Jesus in Heaven, Jesus on Earth, Jesus back in Heaven…
VISUALISE the situation – it doesn't work – What did I ask: How is Jesus now only “an Heir to God” if he were previously “In the Form of God” (As GOD) is this then not a LESSER position?
I see in another thread there is a debate about how many it takes to commit Truth. If the majority say “Yeah” then it is True but if even ONE says not then it is not.
Remind everyone of the little boy who exposed the fraud in the “Emperor's clothes” saga!
But then, all the angels of heaven held to the truth until ONE, Satan, said otherwise.
So who, the Majority or the Minority – Judge each on it's own merit.
Mike………..Does God the Father have a (FORM) i think not, He is formless, He is pure Spirit, Jesus had that Spirit in Him so he did (image) or reflect GOD'S Nature to us, by means of the Spirit (IN) Him, What that chapter says is that Jesus having this Nature (IN) him at the time of his earthly existence did not try or think to rob GOD by trying to make himself equal to him, even though he had this same spirit nature of GOD indwelling him , he still took on the nature of a servant and humbled himself . Now you are assuming He had this nature as a preexisting Being , but you are forcing the text to say that, because it does not (specifically) say or indicates that, and preexistence was not even Paul's Point he was driving at either there. Read the context and that should be obvious to you. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (JustAskin @ July 23 2010,12:45) There is nothing “MAGICAL” about the statement. Paul was simply stating that Jesus did not simply come into being as a man born of Mary but had being existing in the “Form of God”, “A Spirit”
JA,I agree 100%.
mike
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2010,12:50) Hi MB,
Micaiah was in the minority
and right.[1Ki22]
Hi Nick,As were some single prophets of God in the midst of many false prophets.
I didn't post about minority or majority.
JA and Nick, come on – you guys are moderators. Please help me to keep this simple little thread on topic of Phil 2.
thanks,
mikeWe three things disoriented are?
Instead of agreeing we stand way off, far.
something something something
Something something something…
I can't remember the rest, har har!Ah good! Gene has come to play!
It's hard to answer your points about this passage in that other muddled up thread.
You said:
Quote Does God the Father have a (FORM) i think not, He is formless, He is pure Spirit,
So God exists in a spirit “form” or “nature”, right? It is saying that Jesus existed in that same “form” or “nature” before emptying himself to come in flesh.You said:
Quote What that chapter says is that Jesus having this Nature (IN) him at the time of his earthly existence did not try or think to rob GOD by trying to make himself equal to him,
So in your thinking, Jesus, a mere man, could have possibly BEEN equal to God if he wanted to, but he decided not to?You said:
Quote Now you are assuming He had this nature as a preexisting Being , but you are forcing the text to say that, because it does not (specifically) say or indicates that,
Sure it does say that. There is a timeline here Gene. He was existing in the form of God and THEN emptied himself and became as a man. What exactly did he empty himself of to come as flesh?You said:
Quote Read the context and that should be obvious to you. IMO Oh, I understand the context alright. Jesus had this great place and position but gave it all up for the glory of his God. We should emulate that behavior. Like the rich guy that went away from Jesus all sad because he was rich and Jesus told him to give it all to the poor and follow him. That is a parallel of what Jesus did. He gave all his riches away and became “nothing” to follow his God's will and to bring glory to his God's name.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 23 2010,10:49) Hi All, This thread is ONLY for discussing whether or not Phillipians 2 implies Jesus pre-existed.
Please don't post your opinions on the matter as a whole, but limit them ONLY to your understanding of Phil 2.
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.I say it's clear evidence of Jesus' pre-existence. What say you all?
mike
No, this section of scripture does not imply at all that Jesus Christ preexisted.What, pray tell, would lead anyone to that conclusion?
Is that he was found in the form of God? I was found in the form of my parents, I was not found in the form of a lizard. My parents were immigrants from Lithuania. They esteemed their culture. But now they were in the USA. I was in a position to esteem the Lithuanian culture more than the USA. I choose to be an American more than a Lithuanian. I enjoy the fact that I have a Lithuanian background, but I am an American.
Jesus Christ could have lived like a spoiled brat, seeing that he is the only begotten son of God, but for him,loving God, by keeping His commandments was his choice. He chose the life of a servant to God. He did not exalt himself, he humbled himself to serve God and therefore humanity. The context of these verses is an exhortation for us to serve God. Jesus Christ chose to serve God, so should we. Paul, likewise, says I had all the religious credentials any one would want, yet when I learned of Jesus Christ, those credentials became dung, compared to what Christ is to me. The subject is service to God, which Jesus Christ most vividly illustrated.
There is nothing in those verses or in the context that would suggest preexistence.
Who were JC's parents? God and Mary. Therefore it follows that he would be found in the form of God.
Gene,
The King decide to build a ship and layed out his plan.Builders were set to work to build this great ship and it was admirably done especially by one ('Jesus') who had project managed it perfectly according to the very WORD of the king (He was then appointed as Admiral).
The ship was named (HMS Earth) and a Captain (Adam) was appointed.
After the ship was set sail with its crew the captain screwed up and passed the screwedupness onto all the crew.
The ship got into into a titanicly problematic state – had to be rescued but who ever it was would have to die cos they would have to let everyone else get off (Take on their sin) and go down with the ship – there was no other way due to the manner of the saving.
The king dispatched the only suitable person, the Ship building Project manager himself, his Admiral (Jesus) to do the deed knowing that He could raise him to life with the best physician (The Holy Spirit) – The Admiral trusted that this would be so.
(Jesus) removed (Emptied himself of) his lush manicured red and black silk and lace admirals outfit and let go his 'royal' standingness (Spirit) and got into a dour, drab sailors outfit (Flesh) and got down to work…
you get the rest….
Barley,
Have I not asked you to think with a Spiritual mind – not a Fleshly one. What gives that you continue the same way as before?
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