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t8,
In this case you keep claiming s “came in the flesh” which you are cutting from another passage and pasting into Philippians 2: 1-11 to support your interpretation. You do not show enough respect to your follow posters to explain that choice or others you chose to make.
All human being come in the flesh and Jesus will return in the flesh, for he is still a human being in heaven, just as Paul claims in one of his letter to Timothy. Paul speaks of being naked without the body and that can only mean that his human soul will not be clothed in flesh.
You claim that the Christ was made into flesh at the same he came into flesh. The words are contradictory unless you choose to use the first “was made/became” to be was given the characteristics/attributes of flesh. In that case you literally disagree with me in whether the word is literally the word or it is a title of the Christ; a title that is never literally applied to the Christ in Scripture though it is in Trinitarian doctrine.
In a like manner the angels are not claimed to have the bodily form of God. Instead God is sometimes pictured as having the bodily form of humanity. Likewise, we are told there are some angels that come in the bodily form of humanity. So the claim that Jesus has the bodily form of that he like every other human being bears the bodily form of God. Of course that claim because God has no bodily form but instead is present wherever there is existence for we exist in him. That is why Scripture claims he is invisible. On the other angels are either 1) hidden or 2) seen.
Do I understand your doctrine correctly because what I hear is nonsense based on presumptions and speculations based on the traditions of humanity.
In this case you keep claiming s “came in the flesh” (1) which you are cutting from another passage and pasting into Philippians 2: 1-11 to support your interpretation.
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All human being come in the flesh (2) and Jesus will return in the flesh, …Hi Kerwin,
1) I quoted this, because you will likely do the same in an attempt to answer point #2…
2) Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?
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God bless
Ed JHi KW,
2 Cor 5
For indeed while we are in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on WILL NOT BE FOUND NAKED. For indeed while we are in this tent we groan, being burdened, because WE DO NOT WANT TO BE FOUND UNCLOTHED.
The meaning is the opposite of what you claim.
Ps 49.14
Paul will have a body, not a flesh one but a new indestructible one.
To all….A body must have form and substance or it is no a body. A spirit has neither form or substance therefore is not a body of any kind IMO . We will have therefore a resurrected body. Resurrected from the state of being corrupted in the grave. “For we hope for the resurrection that will witness resurrection of our bodies.” Notice it say a resurrection of “our bodies” There is no spirit bodies, spirits live “in” bodies, as clearly shown in scriptures. A spritual body is a physical body made and resurrected by the sprit of God which can live forever being spritually regenerated.
Paul never said we would have spirit bodies, but he said “spritual body” meaning a spritual generated physical body, which we receive at the resurrection or changed at the return of Jesus if we are still alive. Jesus’ body never saw corruption because he never sinned and he is still alive with that same body and will return with it and rule this earth as our king.
God said the soul that sins “it” shall parish we all have sinned and our souls (body + spirit) will no longer exist after death, a new body must be prepared for us by the spirit of God at our resurrection or changed if we are still alive at CHRISTS JESUS return, this sinful body must be replaced by a new one, Jesus’ body did not have to be replaced because he never sinned, so his body never saw corruption in the grave as we must. His same body was revived and he still has it to this day and will for ever glorified as it may be, it’s still the same body. God’s word remains true only those body souls who sinned parish. Jesus never sinned so his body never parishes. IMO
Peace and love to you all and yours………gene
Nick,
You are going past point where he is naked to where he is clothed in a indestructible body.
One removes the old cloths and is naked and puts on new clothes that they are not found naked.
In short the naked part of a human comes in the part that is the body that they not be found naked.
The spirit also comes in the flesh so I do not object to your interpretation of John’s words though I think it is not the primary intention of his words. I instead am convinced that both your preferred interpretation and mine are correct.
Nick,
Yes, for it is only the dead that are naked. There will be a resurrection for them but the rest will be changed.
Tigger,
Form’ may be used to translate morphe, but it also must be understood that it is restricted to the outward appearance of something, not to its essence.
That is incorrect as neither a servant or God has an outward form. In fact the NT only three times one of which is as you say the appearance of the face. The one I want to point of form of a servant and the evidence is clear that God’s servants come in many forms as for he had an as serve him as a messenger to Balaam and a great white swallowed a prophet and delivered him up to his destination.
The claim you repeat depends on the use of morph not being of the inward form in Philippians 2 when clearly it is.
In addition morphósis a derivative of morph is used in Romans 2:20 as the complete picture of knowledge and 1 Timothy 3:5 as the sum of the parts of godliness. Neither godliness or knowledge has outward forms.
So consider form of a servant in the same sense that godliness and knowledge each has a form.
It is a difficult language for us to understand because it is more dependent on both written and unwritten context and perhaps other reasons.
I am having issues with my sound system but that one is a strange one. Thank you for looking into it.
Ed,
There is not Scripture that states otherwise. Instead we are told Jesus has a flesh and bone body just before he ascended to heaven and as I said there is no mention of any change after that. We also told he is the human being that mediates between God and humanity in heaven. It is also the Son of humanity that returns is the sky; the same way he ascended. That would include being flesh and bone.
I was going off a change in John’s words that puzzles experts. It is translated in the AV of the KJV but John uses the present tense in 2 John 1:7 just like it is also used in Matthew 24:26:64 for the phrase “coming in the clouds”. It is perfect tense in 1 John 4:3 uses perfect tense. It seems to be ambiguous though I favor the idea that John is making two different but related points instead of rephrasing the same one. On the other hand the translators of the AV of KJV favored the opposite point of view.
Nick….How do you get I said he will be different then us, I never said that? Scripture says the resurrection will redeem Our BODIES, not redeem our spirits because spirits go back to God who gave it in he first place and does not need to be redeemed because it remains even after death, the only thing that parishes by being corrupted in the grave is our BODIES, and that is the ONLY THING THAT NEEDS TO BE REDEEMED, by a resurrection. Jesus never sinned so he was allowed to retain his original body, just as scripture says, “for you will not suffer your holy one to see corruption, he was speaking of his complete soul, (body and spirit) .
If you do not believe in a resurrection of “our” bodies then why a resurrection at all, seeming the only thing that died was the body? Jesus said clearly he was not a spirit after he was resurrected and showed it was a body that was resurrected from the grave, not a spirit. Jesus still has his same resurrected body because it never saw corruption and he assented with it and will return with it also, glorified as it may be.
“Now if the spirit of him that raised Christ Jesus from the dead dwell in you he (God) will also raise, what?, your mortal (dead) “BODY”.”
Now tell us again what dies when we die is it our bodies or our spirits, or both that need to be resurrected. Your theology says it’s just the spirit, but scriptures disagree with you on this Nick. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……..gene
Hi GB,
The redemption of our bodies may not mean what you assume.
This mortal must put on immortality.
Hi GB,
Mortal does not men dead but subject to death.
Jesus was raised in his mortal body to fulfil the sign of Jonah .
This proved he was the promised messiah, the Son of God.
John says we do not know what we will be like but we will be like to him.
You should not go around saying you do know because that opposes scripture.
Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom. Neither is it imperishable.
Hi,
That should read flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.
We will be alike to the Angels in some ways, but there are mysteries.
Tigger wrote:
“’Form’ may be used to translate morphe, but it also must be understood that it is restricted to the outward appearance of something, not to its essence.” Kerwin: “That is incorrect as neither a servant or God has an outward form.”……………………
As even many trinitarian Bible scholars admit:
“Morphe is instanced from Homer onwards and means form in the sense of outward appearance.” – The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Zondervan, p. 705, vol. 1.
Thayer agrees that morphe is
“the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance” – Thayer’s Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 418, Baker Book House. [Also see Young’s Analytical Concordance]
Liddell and Scott’s An Intermediate Greek–English Lexicon, p. 519, Oxford University Press, 1994 printing, tells us that morphe can mean “form, fashion, appearance” but does not include a meaning for “nature” or “essence.” It also shows that if one truly intends the meaning of “being, essence, nature of a thing” it is defined by the Greek word ousia (p. 579) or phusis (p. 876) not morphe.
The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (abridged in one volume), Eerdmans, 1985, says “In general morphe in all its nuances represents what may be seen by the senses and not what is mentally apprehended.” – p. 608. It also tells us that when “nature” is intended by Paul, he uses physis (phusis). E.g., Ro. 11:21, 24; Gal. 2:15;4:8. – p. 1286.
The highly-esteemed BAGD also defines morphe as “form, outward appearance, shape.” – p. 530.
When even many Trinitarian scholars admit the above, it seems unlikely that the Trinitarian ‘proof’ of others is true.
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