Paul, james, peter and jude are convicted

Participant

Hi BD,
You certainly show us that man cannot serve two masters.

But why study our holy books just to trample them?

July 13, 2009 at 2:04 am#137396

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2009,13:51)

Hi BD,
You certainly show us that man cannot serve two masters.

But why study our holy books just to trample them?

I don't trample anything. But yes, two Masters is against the scriptures.

I only worship God Almighty.

July 13, 2009 at 2:21 am#137402

Participant

Hi BD,
Does He know you are trying to do so?
Would it not help your cause if you stopped judging his beloved servants?

July 13, 2009 at 3:36 pm#137420

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 12 2009,21:53)

Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,21:22)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 12 2009,21:03)

Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,20:44)

bodhitharta said:

Quote

When God uses olam it means as Far as He can see and that would mean without end.

Wrong! The word “olam” is used in reference to Christ's rule over the house of Jacob. But Paul said “then comes the end when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father.”

You are blatantly denying that Sarah asked Abraham to cast out Ishmael and God told Abraham to do what Sarah said and he did it. You blatantly deny that God called Isaac Abraham's “ONLY son” after that. You blatantly deny that God said that He was the God of Isaac (not Ishmael).

thinker

Why does the scripture say that God was with Ishmael?

In-fact if God is not the God of Ishmael then why didn't He let Hagar and Ishmael die in the desert? God helped them and once again promised blessings to Ishmael.

BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

BTW, So you don't believe that God is the Everlasting God?

The same word olam is used in reference to God also.

God promised no covenant blessings to Ishmael. Show me that Ishmael is an heir of salvation. He was NOT an heir of salvation.

You ignored my point that the kingdom came to an end. Yet the word “olam” was used to speak of its duration. Are you going to answer or not? I believe that God is everlasting but the word “olam” does not prove it.

thinker

Genesis 21:16-18 (New King James Version)
16 Then she went and sat down across from him at a distance of about a bowshot; for she said to herself, “Let me not see the death of the boy.” So she sat opposite him, and lifted her voice and wept.
17 And God heard the voice of the lad. Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, “What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18 Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation.”

Genesis 21

12 But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. 13 Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.”

19 Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water, and gave the lad a drink. 20 So God was with the lad; and he grew and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. 21 He dwelt in the Wilderness of Paran; and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt.

God was with him after they were “cast out” God does not cast people out of a covenant because they have to leave a place. The proof is the scripture says that God was with him.

Allah was with him the same Allah that blessed Isaac.

Exodus 22: (New King James Version)

22 “You shall not afflict any widow or fatherless child. 23 If you afflict them in any way, and they cry at all to Me, I will surely hear their cry;

Deuteronomy 10:17-19 (New King James Version)
17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. 18 He administers justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the stranger, giving him food and clothing. 19 Therefore love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 27: (New King James Version)

19 ‘Cursed is the one who perverts the justice due the stranger, the fatherless, and widow.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

Psalm 10: (New King James Version)

14 But You have seen, for You observe trouble and grief,
To repay it by Your hand.
The helpless commits himself to You;
You are the helper of the fatherless.

Psalm 68:4-6 (New King James Version)

4 Sing to God, sing praises to His name;
Extol Him who rides on the clouds,[a]
By His name YAH,
And rejoice before Him.

5 A father of the fatherless, a defender of widows,
Is God in His holy habitation.

Hosea 14:2-4 (New King James Version)
2 Take words with you,
And return to the LORD.
Say to Him,

“ Take away all iniquity;
Receive us graciously,
For we will offer the sacrifices[a] of our lips.
3 Assyria shall not save us,
We will not ride on horses,
Nor will we say anymore to the work of our hands, ‘You are our gods.’
For in You the fatherless finds mercy.”

It seems to me that I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you do not know God at all.

bd,

All you have proved is that you know how to wrench the Scriptures out of their context. Not one of the passages you cited above say that God gave covenant blessings to Ishmael. Paul did not see it your way. He said that only Isaac was an heir (Gal. 4). He would know his own Scriptures better than you. Again, you have proven nothing.

thinker

July 13, 2009 at 4:33 pm#137426

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,03:36)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 12 2009,21:53)

Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,21:22)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 12 2009,21:03)

Quote (thethinker @ July 12 2009,20:44)

bodhitharta said:

Quote

When God uses olam it means as Far as He can see and that would mean without end.

Wrong! The word “olam” is used in reference to Christ's rule over the house of Jacob. But Paul said “then comes the end when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father.”

thinker

Why does the scripture say that God was with Ishmael?

In-fact if God is not the God of Ishmael then why didn't He let Hagar and Ishmael die in the desert? God helped them and once again promised blessings to Ishmael.

BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

BTW, So you don't believe that God is the Everlasting God?

The same word olam is used in reference to God also.

God promised no covenant blessings to Ishmael. Show me that Ishmael is an heir of salvation. He was NOT an heir of salvation.

thinker

Genesis 21

God was with him after they were “cast out” God does not cast people out of a covenant because they have to leave a place. The proof is the scripture says that God was with him.

Allah was with him the same Allah that blessed Isaac.

Exodus 22: (New King James Version)

22 “You shall not afflict any widow or fatherless child. 23 If you afflict them in any way, and they cry at all to Me, I will surely hear their cry;

Deuteronomy 27: (New King James Version)

19 ‘Cursed is the one who perverts the justice due the stranger, the fatherless, and widow.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

Psalm 10: (New King James Version)

14 But You have seen, for You observe trouble and grief,
To repay it by Your hand.
The helpless commits himself to You;
You are the helper of the fatherless.

Psalm 68:4-6 (New King James Version)

Hosea 14:2-4 (New King James Version)
2 Take words with you,
And return to the LORD.
Say to Him,

It seems to me that I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you do not know God at all.

bd,

thinker

So what you are saying is that when the scriptures say that God was with Ishmael it doesn't mean that God is the God of Ishmael?

What was God then to him just a buddy shooting the breeze with him? Your logic is really off and nonsensical.

Let me get this straight when the Bible says that God was with Jesus, you say it means that Jesus is God. But when the Bible says God was with Ishmael, it means that God rejected Ishmael, is that what you are saying because I want everyone here to witness how you think.

July 13, 2009 at 6:40 pm#137432

Participant

Hi BD,
God is close to everyone[Acts 17]
But the wrath of God remains on most.[Jn3]

July 13, 2009 at 9:15 pm#137468

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 14 2009,06:40)

Hi BD,
God is close to everyone[Acts 17]
But the wrath of God remains on most.[Jn3]

The scripture says that God was with Ishmael. If God was “with” Ishmael it means God was for Ishmael.

Are you believing like thinker saying that God was not with Ishmael even though the scriptures say otherwise?

July 13, 2009 at 9:20 pm#137470

Participant

bodhitharta said:

Quote

So what you are saying is that when the scriptures say that God was with Ishmael it doesn't mean that God is the God of Ishmael?

What was God then to him just a buddy shooting the breeze with him? Your logic is really off and nonsensical.

Ishmael became an archer. Big whoop. Isaac became a patriarch of God's covenantal people. Now you tell me if God was Ishmael's God.

thinker

post script: Abraham asked God if ishmael could be the heir and God said “No.” He said that Sarah's son would be the heir. But God made Ishmael a great nation because Abraham love him. Not because God was Ishmael's God. (Gen. 17:19,20)

thinker

July 13, 2009 at 9:20 pm#137471

Participant

Hi BD,
Are you hiding under the cloak of Ishmael?
Does that make you feel secure?

July 13, 2009 at 9:42 pm#137484

942767

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ July 11 2009,11:05)

Paladin said:

Quote

Ishmael was in fact in covenant with God.

When he was circumcised, it was becasue he was in covenant relation with Jehovah, God of Abraham. This covenant covered all males who were his seed, or males in his house.

Even in the Exodus from Egypt, PRIOR to the lawgiving of Moses, God established that servants were to be circumcised to be in covenant – “And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: 44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.” [Exo 12:43-45]

Ishmael was in circuncision covenant with God, but it was not the same law covenant that was passed down through Isaac, and Jacob.

Ishmael WAS in covenant relationship with God. He was later cast out of covenant relationship. His circumcision was therefore meaningless. Sarah said to Abraham, “Cast out the bondwoman and her son.” God interjected and said, “Do what Sarah says.” Abraham responded by giving the boy to Hagar and sending them both away. Abraham gave the boy away and sent both the boy and his mother away. He disowned Ishmael by God's own order. After this God treated Ishmael as if he never existed. God said, “Offer up Isaac your ONLY son.”

You guys are re-writing history.

thinker

Hi thethinker:

“Cast out the bondwomand and her son” is an allegory pertaining to the two covenants. By works of the Law shall no man be saved.

Ishamael was blessed by God to become a great nation, but the scripture states:

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Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

The gospel is to be preached to every creature BD including all Arabs. God is calling whomsoever will come to be reconciled to him through the provision that he has made, and there is no other way to be saved.

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Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

July 13, 2009 at 9:55 pm#137488

Participant

Marty,
It is allegorical for the chosen in Isaac. Abraham asked God to make Ishmael the heir and God replied saying “NO.” (Gen. 17:19,20)

thinker

July 13, 2009 at 10:04 pm#137490

942767

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,09:55)

Marty,
It is allegorical for the chosen in Isaac. Abraham asked God to make Ishmael the heir and God replied saying “NO.” (Gen. 17:19,20)

thinker

Hi thethinker:

The following quote from the book of Galatians:

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21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Love in Christ,
Marty

July 13, 2009 at 10:11 pm#137493

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ July 14 2009,09:20)

bodhitharta said:

Quote

So what you are saying is that when the scriptures say that God was with Ishmael it doesn't mean that God is the God of Ishmael?

What was God then to him just a buddy shooting the breeze with him? Your logic is really off and nonsensical.

Ishmael became an archer. Big whoop. Isaac became a patriarch of God's covenantal people. Now you tell me if God was Ishmael's God.

thinker

The scripture says that God was with him and now his descendents have received the Final revelation.

The scripture says this

Matthew 19
30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Deuteronomy 21
15 “If a man has two wives, one loved and the other unloved, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the unloved, and if the firstborn son is of her who is unloved, 16 then it shall be, on the day he bequeaths his possessions to his sons, that he must not bestow firstborn status on the son of the loved wife in preference to the son of the unloved, the true firstborn. 17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.

Matthew 20
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle,[a] and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’
8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”[c]

God is never unjust and now the decendents of Ishmael have received the Final Revelation “The Quran” for all mankind

July 13, 2009 at 10:17 pm#137498

942767

Participant

Hi BD:

The following scriptures may help your understanding:

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Rom 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9:9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

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Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

And relative to Anti-Christ:

Quote

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Love in Christ,
Marty

July 13, 2009 at 10:19 pm#137501