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This verse:
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
This verse doesn’t say that the child shall be “made” a god, it says that his name shall be called the mighty God.
Jesus is called God in the OT and the NT. Never is it said that he was “made” a god.
The Messiah is not a vessel for God, Nick. He is the eternal Son of God and only eternal Son of God, to be given the same honor and praise as God, His Father. A mere vessel does not get the same honor as the potter. Jesus was not a mere vessel or puppet. Jesus is to get and does get the same honor and praise as God His Father.
Lu, wrong, there are many scriptures that shows JESUS IS A servant, a pure human being,
Gen3:15…and I (God) will put enmity between you and the women, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head! And you shall bruise his heel.
LU, Tell us where do you see like GOD or a GOD, IN ANY OF THIS. Or perhaps you don’t know who this is talking about.
Deu 18:15… The LORD thy God will raise up unto you a “prophet” FROM THE MIDST OF YOU, OF (THY) BRETHERN, like UNTO ME; unto him you shall hearken;….verse 18…I will raise them up a “prophet from among their brethern, like unto (YOU), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I command him. Verse 19…And it shall come to pass that whosoever will not hearken unto (MY WORDS) which he shall speak (IN MY NAME), I will require it of him.
Now whose words, and where will he come from ?, ĹÙ, if you truly believe scriptures, it should be obivious JESUS would come from a decedent of ISRAEL, A (MAN) like Moses.
So who’s words was that PROPHECIED, (MAN) prophet like Moses speaking, was it (HIS) words or GOD’S WORDS?
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
LU,
A few things,
Show in OT where Jesus is CALLED Jehovah?
Jesus I SAID IS NEVER CALLED JEHOVAH. Jesus is called a god, from a WORD that is used for Jehovah as he is the one true God, AND it is also USED to represent other gods, as well as mighty men.
Mighty men are not true gods because they get their power through Jehovah, the ONE TRUE GOD.
This is why Jehovah the ONE TRUE GOD calls Moses a god.
ALSO look at the passage again LU of Isaiah 9:6,
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
When the prophet spoke it was a PROPHECY of a human born of the tribe of Judah who would come to be called for being known as a wonderful councilor, mighty man, everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, because in OT we are in fact TOLD that Jehovah would take the son of man and MAKE him into a righteous judge, we are told in fact in the OT that Jehovah would PLACE His Spirit upon this man and he would bring peace through that anointing.
PLEASE EXPLAIN the below passage LU and how it fits into your belief,
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
So Jehovah is the ONE TRUE GOD and there is NO ONE ELSE. This Jehovah made the earth and made man.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
THE PROPHECY in regards to a MAN,
13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
LU I suggest you APPLY Isaiah’s words with Isaiah’s words!!
Hi Ed J,
Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?
The one who hath ascending up into heaven or descended?..is not the son here Ed J, but the father.
Hi Jodi,
Saying that God descends and ascends is NO PROOF that Proverbs 30:4 is not talking about the “Spirit of Christ”
“but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise” (John 5:19)____________
God bless
Ed JHi Ed J,
If you could take a look again,
Who hath ascended, who gathered, who bound the waters, who established all the ends of the earth, what is HIS NAME…..and what is his son’s name.
It could be said like this also, WHAT is HIS NAME who hath ascended, who gathered, who bound the waters, who established all the ends of the earth? and what is his son’s name?
You are telling me Ed J, that it should be read and answered as, what is his name (Jesus) and what is his son’s name (_?_). Can you fill in the blank for me?
No! It is saying, what is his name (Jehovah) and what is his son’s name (Jesus).
ALSO,
It does NOT go like this, Who hath ascended, who gathered, who bound the waters, who established all the ends of the earth, what is his name and what is his Father’s name.
Ed J, the passage is saying What is the person’s name who hath ascended, and then it asks what is THAT person’s son’s name.
Do we have that straightened out?
Just in case you weren’t aware of all the passages where Jehovah says He comes down and visits man, I had added those in for you in my prior post.
Also consider,
Isaiah 41:2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. 3 He pursued them, and passed safely; even by the way that he had not gone with his feet. 4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. 5 The isles saw it, and feared; the ends of the earth were afraid, drew near, and came. 6 They helped every one his neighbour; and every one said to his brother, Be of good courage. 7 So the carpenter encouraged the goldsmith, and he that smootheth with the hammer him that smote the anvil, saying, It is ready for the sodering: and he fastened it with nails, that it should not be moved. 8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. 9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. 10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
Jesus did not establish the ends of the earth Jehovah did, and Jehovah chose Jesus, a servant from Israel and gave the nations to him, nations which Jehovah established.
Hi Jodi, oh yea? What do you do with this verse:
(He wasn’t anywhere before “according to you” ???)“What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” (John 6:62)
____________
God bless
Ed JHi Ed J,
So you are saying that we do not in fact have Proverbs 30 straightened out?
You can’t admit that the passage is clearly speaking that it is the Father who is ascending in this particular passage?
Yes Jesus ascended from where he was before, but this passage is not speaking of Jesus ascending or descending, and we know from ample other scriptures that the LORD does in fact comes down and visit, and if he comes down He certainly ascends and returns to His abode.
I will discuss John 6 in the pre-existence thread okay Ed J, want to keep this topic about OT only.
Hi Ed,
The anointed man Jesus made plain that he was a son of Adam(man)
But verses about the ascending and descending relate to the Spirit that filled him from the Jordan.
Scripture is spiritual and does not serve the logical expectations of men.
What do you do with this verse:
“What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” (John 6:62)
Hi Ed,
But verses about the ascending and descending relate to the Spirit that filled him from the Jordan.
Hi Nick
Now you claim the Son of man is the “Holy Spirit”
Then how do you explain this verse:
“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:
but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him,
neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” (Matt 12:32)Clearly your words are in the wrong
____________
God bless
Ed JHi Jodi,
Saying that God descends and ascends is NO PROOF that Proverbs 30:4 is not talking about the “Spirit of Christ”
“What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” (John 6:62)
Hi Ed J,
(1)”Yes Jesus ascended from where he was before…”
(2)So you are saying that we do not in fact have Proverbs 30 straightened out?
Hi Jodi,
1) Well, at least you don’t disagree with the Scripture I produced
to support you faulty ideas, like Nick just did! (see last post)2) Correct – I suggest it goes like this…
Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven (see John 20:17),
or descended (see Micah 5:2)? (Spirit of Christ)
who hath gathered the wind in his fists (God)?
who hath bound the waters in a garment (God) ?
who hath established all the ends of the earth (God)?
what is his (God’s) name (JEHOVAH),
and what is his (God’s) son’s name (Jesus),
if thou canst tell?____________
God bless
Ed JTo all, Jesus said, and this is eternal life, that they might know “YOU”, (THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD), and Jesus the anointed, whom (YOU) have sent.
What part of (ONLY) do you people not understand?
Thou shall have (NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME), you shall make (NO) “IMAGE” of me in heaven above or earth beneath.
What part of (NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME) do you people not understand.
Now take it from there and see if all your words can fit, those simple scriptures, if not then you are wrong. It’s just that simple. Why try to change scriptures to say something else? If our words don’t “ALWAYS” conform to those “SIMPLE” scriptures, then we are WRONG. IT’S JUST THAT SIMPLE.
There is only One GOD, hear ‘O’ Isreal “the LORD (YEHWEH) OUR GOD IS “ONE” LORD (YEHWEH ) not two or three, scracmbled up mixes, JUST “ONE”.
Everyone else that the ONE God gives HIS SPIRIT TO, is a Servant of that “ONE” GOD. Wrether it is Moses, the seventy elders, Joshua, Calab, Jesus, the Saints of the most high, it all “ONE’ and the “SAME” SPIRIT, that God may be “in” all and “through” all, it’s Just that simple.
Peace and love to you all and yours. …..gene
To All… sorry for posting from the NEW TESTEMENT again, but to me both say the same thing. Confusion comes when people try to make them different. While there is somethings different, but not about GOD. JUST the covenants are different. The old testement says over and over there is only (ONE) GOD. GOD SAYS “CLEARLY”, “there is (NO) God besides me, I KNOW NOT ANY”.
BUT some hear say they know better then our God does, about other existing God’s. They deny his very own words, Trying to make God out to be a liar, like they are. There is Just “ONE” GOD, NO OTHER GOD’S, exactly as GOD HIMSELF SAID, and that GOD is “NOT” the “MAN” Jesus.
All who worship Jesus as a God are denying his flesh existence they are ANTICHRIST’S.
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
Here are a couple of OT passages with a couple of NT passages for clarity.
Isaiah 59:16
And He (Jehovah) saw that there was no man, And was astonished that there was no one to intercede; Then His own arm brought salvation to Him, And His righteousness upheld Him.
Jehovah’s OWN ARM (the only begotten Son of God) brought salvation to Him. Jehovah’s own arm is not a mere man. Jehovah’s OWN ARM (the only begotten Son of God) had to become a man because there WAS NO MAN who could bring about salvation.
John 12:36While you have light, believe in the light, that you may be the children of light. These things spoke Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, Lord, who has believed our report? and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40He has blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.
Jeremiah 32:17
Ah Lord Jehovah! behold, thou hast made the heavens and the earth by thy great power and by thine outstretched arm; there is nothing too hard for thee,
Hebrews 1:8
8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”e
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”f
Jehovah has ALWAYS had His ARM. The Arm of Jehovah , His OWN ARM is as eternal as Jehovah is.
God bless! LU
Hi LU,
You think the ARM OF GOD operates without the Spirit and the power of God?
The finger of God is the Spirit of God but the arm is not the arm of the Father?
Jodi
you asked:
PLEASE EXPLAIN the below passage LU and how it fits into your belief,
Consider the only begotten Son of God who was begotten before creation and the Firstborn of all creation, as the “ARM of Jehovah” who was the exact representation of the character of His Father. They are two in number, the same in essence, and one in unity. Names reflect character. Both Father and Son are the same in character so seeing what can seem like two Jehovahs in the Bible should be understood because the name “Jehovah” reflects the character of God. Abraham talked and ate with Jehovah which was not the Father. The Son will be called “Jehovah our Righteousness.”
Hi Ed J,
You provided,
“Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven (see John 20:17),
or descended (see Micah 5:2)? (Spirit of Christ)
who hath gathered the wind in his fists (God)?
who hath bound the waters in a garment (God) ?
who hath established all the ends of the earth (God)?
what is his (God’s) name (JEHOVAH),
and what is his (God’s) son’s name (Jesus),
if thou canst tell?”All the “who hath” that are given are all applied to ONE person and they are asking for that one person’s NAME, and then it is asked what is that person’s son’s name. It does not say what are THEIR NAMES and we are to apply some of the “who hath” to one of them, and some of the “who hath” to the other.
Knowing that the LORD speaks in many many scriptures about coming down to earth, should make it all the more easier to know the NAME of the person that ALL the “who hath” applies to. I would say if though canst tell who the name of this person is that all of the “who hath” applies to I would tell them to start by reading all those passages about the person who comes down to earth, and then they should be able to figure it out pretty darn easily.
Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven
or descended (see multiple OT scriptures about God)
who hath gathered the wind in his fists (God)?
who hath bound the waters in a garment (God) ?
who hath established all the ends of the earth (God)?
what is his name (JEHOVAH),
and what is his son’s name (Jesus),
if thou canst tell?Hi LU,
Here is the passage I asked for you to explain how it fits your understanding,
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
So Jehovah is the ONE TRUE GOD and there is NO ONE ELSE. This Jehovah made the earth and made man.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
THE PROPHECY in regards to a MAN,
13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
You said in response, “Consider the only begotten Son of God who was begotten before creation and the Firstborn of all creation, as the “ARM of Jehovah” who was the exact representation of the character of His Father. They are two in number, the same in essence, and one in unity. Names reflect character. Both Father and Son are the same in character so seeing what can seem like two Jehovahs in the Bible should be understood because the name “Jehovah” reflects the character of God. Abraham talked and ate with Jehovah which was not the Father. The Son will be called “Jehovah our Righteousness.”
You are not making any sense to me, “seeing what can seem like two Jehovah’s in the bible” I don’t see anywhere two Jehovah’s, JUST ONE. You cannot produce a scripture where Jehovah is speaking to Jehovah can you? You cannot find a scripture where Jehovah is represented as two persons can you? You cannot find a scripture where Jehovah can be identified as the Father, and in another place the Son is Jehovah identified as the son, can you?
What you can find several times is Jehovah speaking of a future MAN that He would anoint with His Spirit and then with that anointing this MAN could speak the words of God, and perform the miracles of God, being the arm of God. What you find is Jehovah saying that He is ONE and there is NO ONE else and in that SAME passage He speaks of a MAN chosen from the people to fulfill His purpose and plan that He had since the beginning.
What we DO HAVE is Jehovah saying that He would take a SON OF MAN and make Him into His firstborn Son. What you DO NOT HAVE EVER in the OT is Jehovah speaking of a firstborn son already existing.
Yes the LORD sends messengers in His place, and they come in His Holy Name. As already given to you it is NOT Jesus alone that comes in the Father’s name likewise other people do and so does an entire city. You need to throw that argument out the window LU, Jesus came in his Father’s name but he was not the ONLY ONE to do so, do you want to tell me that other people and a city are Jehovah as well, because by your reasoning it seems you would have to.
The ARM of the LORD is revealed LU NOT as a pre-existing son.
Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
The LORD’s Arm is the power of His Spirit of which Jesus had upon his anointing.
Moses likewise was the arm of the LORD.
Deuteronomy 7:8 Thou shalt not be afraid of them: but shalt well remember what the LORD thy God did unto Pharaoh, and unto all Egypt; 19 The great temptations which thine eyes saw, and the signs, and the wonders, and the mighty hand, and the stretched out arm, whereby the LORD thy God brought thee out: so shall the LORD thy God do unto all the people of whom thou art afraid.
Exodus 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
The ARM of the LORD represents His work done through His Spirit, of which the LORD anoints men with that Spirit making them able to fulfill the LORD’s work.
Nowhere is there a scripture that says Jesus pre-existed as the Spirit of God.
God’s ARM is HIS POWERS that He can ANOINT MEN WITH in order to fulfill His will.
Jodi…another excellent post, sis. I hope everyone here truly reads it and benefits by it, it is the truth.
Peace and love to you and yours. ….gene
Jodi,
I disagree with you on practically everything you write. It is not my desire to argue with you. I have answered your many questions more than once yet you keep asking the same things. I’m sorry that I haven’t been able to help you. If I think of something or come across scripture for your thread then I will post but I am not going to argue with you about the scripture. I don’t believe that you can find a church to attend that teaches what you teach and commentaries don’t agree with you from what I read, I haven’t found your teaching on any youtube debates, the early church fathers don’t agree with you but you have Gene and maybe that is good enough for you. I find a tremendous amount of support from the early church fathers, the commentaries, I have a church that teaches what I believe in the important matters and so I am fine with what I believe and at peace. I do wish you well.
May God bless you,
LU
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