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Kathi and Mike,
When Jesus said about Judas, “one of you is devil”, was he saying:
1) That Judas was the Devil (Satan).
2) That Judas was a devil (excluding Satan)
3) That Judas had the characteristics or nature of the Devil
4) Another explanationWhat is your choice?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 24 2013,23:09) Kathi and Mike, When Jesus said about Judas, “one of you is devil”, was he saying:
1) That Judas was the Devil (Satan).
2) That Judas was a devil (excluding Satan)
3) That Judas had the characteristics or nature of the Devil
4) Another explanationWhat is your choice?
t8,I assume that you are referring to John 6:70
Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”Devil in that verse is an adjective: slanderous, accusing falsely.
Strong's 1228
diabolos: slanderous, accusing falsely
Original Word: διάβολος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: diabolos
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ab'-ol-os)
Short Definition: slanderous, the Slanderer, the Devil
Definition: (adj. used often as a noun), slanderous; with the article: the Slanderer (par excellence), the Devil.In the translation above, as in most translations, the word is used as a noun and I think it conveys more of a description of someone who is devil-like, imo.
So, I'll choose #4.
4) Judas was devil-like.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 24 2013,23:00) No I didn't miss that.
But I saw the pattern and you did not.Most High God + the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son + the Church
answers to:
Jesus Christ, + our God and Saviour; + the Church
And all the other mentions follow the pattern but do not include the Church, i.e., God and Jesus.
Sure it does mention Jesus first and if Ignatius did mean to say that Jesus is our theos, then when Jesus said ye are theos, he would surely have meant it in the same way, but not to describe the Almighty God. Again, if he did, then he is contradicting his own teaching and would be double minded and thus not an authority. However, I believe it is clear that he believed that there is one God the Father, and Jesus Christ his son. As he testifies here:
“Most High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son”
And so he likely uses theos not in the sense that we assign it to the Father. I think that if this is not the case, then he is contradicting himself.
So neither view supports you but supports the truth that the Father is the true God and that theos can still be used positively of others as scripture testifies and concordances confirm.
If it said:
Jesus Christ , AND our God and Savior;then you would be correct but the 'and' is not there.
The words are:
Jesus Christ, our God and Savior;There is no repeated pattern, sorry.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 24 2013,23:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2013,17:47) Ignatius in other writings calls the Son, the eternal Word. Do you believe that the Son was the eternal Word, t8?
Kathi, I am not sure what sense he was saying this because I would have to see the context. But for now, ask yourself, “do you have eternal life?”.Quote Chapter VIII.—Caution against false doctrines. Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Christ Jesus. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence,676 and who in all things pleased Him that sent Him.
Quote (abe @ Mar. 25 2013,13:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2013,09:32) Quote (abe @ Mar. 22 2013,18:52) Hi Mike, Is the Spirit of God the same as the Holy Spirit?
Yes.
Hi Mike,Gal.4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Spirit of His SON. Can you explain?
Peace brother..
Abe,
Maybe there is something that we are missing here. “The Spirit of His Son”…. MAYBE…… Man has His own spirit, correct. So, maybe… Jesus' Spirit was the Holy Spirit!?So the flesh = The Man.
The Spirit of Jesus = The Holy Spirit.Hmmmmmm.
Okay wrong thread for this.
But what do you think?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2013,18:56) So, I'll choose #4.
4) Judas was devil-like.
Yes you are right. Judas was devil-like.But, apologies. I made a mistake with option 3.
It should have read,3) That Judas had the character or nature of the Devil
I was trying to convey that he had some of the Devil's qualities in that option. It was not my intention to say that option 3 was characteristic because I think that even though it is linked to the word character, it has a strong physical meaning which is not my intention.
So you choose the corrected option 3 because the 'devil-like' you are referring to is not devil-like in appearance, but in character or quality. I am assuming this to be the case. Let me know if it is not.
Mike what about you? Please bear in mind that option 3) is now:
3) That Judas had the character, quality, or nature of the Devil.
Kathi, I don't have access to he Greek Text of Ignatius, and I likely do not have the time to dissect his text even if I had.
However, I have already covered both sides of the coin in a previous post and neither is saying that Jesus is the Most High God.
And I have further proof which you have obviously overlooked in your zeal to prove you are the truth in such matters.
Take a look at the Ignatius text you quoted again.
Quote Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who formed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit,820 worthy of being deemed holy,821 and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, and is possessed of the Spirit, which I also salute in the name of Almighty God, and of Jesus Christ His Son: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments, who are filled inseparably with all the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, abundance of happiness unblameably, in God, even the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Can you see your huge oversight? No. Look at the first sentence.Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son;
Is this not we say and why you oppose us?
Enough said. Case closed because you ignore a huge glaring plank and concentrate on a speck that even if it was written as Jesus only is not even proof that Jesus is the Most High God.
In your zeal to revenge myself with the rebukes I have handed out to you, God in his wisdom has allowed you to post the truth of which you are offering as evidence against me, but in reality supports me. This oversight of yours was possible because you are so emotionally attached to the idea that you are right, that you cannot see the obvious anymore, but concentrate on gnats that seem easy to manipulate in your view.
If you were batting for the truth Kathi, you would not be fixated on the idea that you are right at all costs.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2013,10:09) Kathi and Mike, When Jesus said about Judas, “one of you is devil”, was he saying:
1) That Judas was the Devil (Satan).
2) That Judas was a devil (excluding Satan)
3) That Judas had the characteristics or nature of the Devil
4) Another explanationWhat is your choice?
T8,Judas sold himself to Satan and so was owned(possessed) by him.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 25 2013,13:02) Quote (abe @ Mar. 25 2013,13:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2013,09:32) Quote (abe @ Mar. 22 2013,18:52) Hi Mike, Is the Spirit of God the same as the Holy Spirit?
Yes.
Hi Mike,Gal.4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Spirit of His SON. Can you explain?
Peace brother..
Abe,
Maybe there is something that we are missing here. “The Spirit of His Son”…. MAYBE…… Man has His own spirit, correct. So, maybe… Jesus' Spirit was the Holy Spirit!?So the flesh = The Man.
The Spirit of Jesus = The Holy Spirit.Hmmmmmm.
Okay wrong thread for this.
But what do you think?
2beesee,Jesus had both his own and God's which is why he stated “not as I will but as you will”. God's Spirit is later called by Jesus' name. I can think of two different reasons why to do that.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 25 2013,05:44) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2013,02:49) T, My parable is not false.
When the Spirit speaks through a person that person speaks, jest as was the case of the Prophets.
When the Spirit speaks Jehovah speaks via it, since he dwells in believers by his Spirit.
In some cases a person that is without the Spirit acts like one with the Spirit.
We can judge a person's fruit but not their final destination.
Knot all are prophets ,and we are not in Christ times neither
T,Those that believe in the current times are greater than the Prophets as they have Jesus Christ to mediate for them and the Spirit living in them.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2013,19:43) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 25 2013,05:44) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2013,02:49) T, My parable is not false.
When the Spirit speaks through a person that person speaks, jest as was the case of the Prophets.
When the Spirit speaks Jehovah speaks via it, since he dwells in believers by his Spirit.
In some cases a person that is without the Spirit acts like one with the Spirit.
We can judge a person's fruit but not their final destination.
Knot all are prophets ,and we are not in Christ times neither
T,Those that believe in the current times are greater than the Prophets as they have Jesus Christ to mediate for them and the Spirit living in them.
KBelieving and having the spirit living in them(?) ,so that Christ is mediating for them seems very vague in deed ,
Any addition to that
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2013,03:03) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2013,18:56) So, I'll choose #4.
4) Judas was devil-like.
Yes you are right. Judas was devil-like.But, apologies. I made a mistake with option 3.
It should have read,3) That Judas had the character or nature of the Devil
I was trying to convey that he had some of the Devil's qualities in that option. It was not my intention to say that option 3 was characteristic because I think that even though it is linked to the word character, it has a strong physical meaning which is not my intention.
So you choose the corrected option 3 because the 'devil-like' you are referring to is not devil-like in appearance, but in character or quality. I am assuming this to be the case. Let me know if it is not.
Mike what about you? Please bear in mind that option 3) is now:
3) That Judas had the character, quality, or nature of the Devil.
t8,
Not to be picky but what you word as:“3) That Judas had the character, quality, or nature of the Devil.”
I would reword as:
3) That Judas had a similar character, quality, or nature of the Devil.I say that because if Judas had THE character, [the] quality, or [the] nature of the devil, he would not have felt any remorse afterwards.
Where is this all leading?
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 25 2013,06:28) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2013,19:43) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 25 2013,05:44) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2013,02:49) T, My parable is not false.
When the Spirit speaks through a person that person speaks, jest as was the case of the Prophets.
When the Spirit speaks Jehovah speaks via it, since he dwells in believers by his Spirit.
In some cases a person that is without the Spirit acts like one with the Spirit.
We can judge a person's fruit but not their final destination.
Knot all are prophets ,and we are not in Christ times neither
T,Those that believe in the current times are greater than the Prophets as they have Jesus Christ to mediate for them and the Spirit living in them.
KBelieving and having the spirit living in them(?) ,so that Christ is mediating for them seems very vague in deed ,
Any addition to that
Hi T,When the Spirit speaks through a person that person speaks, jest as was the case of the Prophets.
When the Spirit speaks Jehovah speaks via it, since he dwells in believers by his Spirit.
WHY is this vague?
Those that believe in the current times are greater than the Prophets as they have Jesus Christ to mediate for them and the Spirit living in them.
Rom.8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for [our] adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
FIRSTFRUITS are our counselors.
Peace brother.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2013,04:39) Kathi, I don't have access to he Greek Text of Ignatius, and I likely do not have the time to dissect his text even if I had. However, I have already covered both sides of the coin in a previous post and neither is saying that Jesus is the Most High God.
And I have further proof which you have obviously overlooked in your zeal to prove you are the truth in such matters.
Take a look at the Ignatius text you quoted again.
Quote Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who formed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit,820 worthy of being deemed holy,821 and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, and is possessed of the Spirit, which I also salute in the name of Almighty God, and of Jesus Christ His Son: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments, who are filled inseparably with all the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, abundance of happiness unblameably, in God, even the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Can you see your huge oversight? No. Look at the first sentence.Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son;
Is this not we say and why you oppose us?
Enough said. Case closed because you ignore a huge glaring plank and concentrate on a speck that even if it was written as Jesus only is not even proof that Jesus is the Most High God.
In your zeal to revenge myself with the rebukes I have handed out to you, God in his wisdom has allowed you to post the truth of which you are offering as evidence against me, but in reality supports me. This oversight of yours was possible because you are so emotionally attached to the idea that you are right, that you cannot see the obvious anymore, but concentrate on gnats that seem easy to manipulate in your view.
If you were batting for the truth Kathi, you would not be fixated on the idea that you are right at all costs.
t8,
You are truly missing the point. Ignatius was a disciple of the writer of John 1:1. His thoughts should help clear up whether or not the second theos mentioned in John 1:1c is likely a second identity who is understood to be as our God also or not.Read this again and answer the question that follows, please.
Quote
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans
Shorter and Longer VersionsIgnatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the region of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy,819 and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God.
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who formed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit,820 worthy of being deemed holy,821 and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, and is possessed of the Spirit, which I also salute in the name of Almighty God, and of Jesus Christ His Son: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments, who are filled inseparably with all the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, abundance of happiness unblameably, in God, even the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
According to the words in the quote box, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans”, which do you think is the most correct answer:
#1 Jesus is NOT identified as our God in any way.
#2 ONLY Jesus IS identified as our God.
#3 ONLY the Father is identified as our God.
#4 The Father IS identified as our God, the Son IS identified as our God.LU,
The Father is defined as almighty god and most high god. He also called god without the modifier once, see note 1.
Jesus is called our god twice, see note 2.
A human king of kings is called god.
Note 1: If this is translated from ancient Greek then translators may have omitted “the” from before god.
Note 2: If this is translated from Ancient Greek then the word order may be controversial.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 26 2013,08:29) 3) That Judas had a similar character, quality, or nature of the Devil.
Okay cool. Being picky is okay if you want to be exact.Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2013,02:38) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 25 2013,13:02) Quote (abe @ Mar. 25 2013,13:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2013,09:32) Quote (abe @ Mar. 22 2013,18:52) Hi Mike, Is the Spirit of God the same as the Holy Spirit?
Yes.
Hi Mike,Gal.4:6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Spirit of His SON. Can you explain?
Peace brother..
Abe,
Maybe there is something that we are missing here. “The Spirit of His Son”…. MAYBE…… Man has His own spirit, correct. So, maybe… Jesus' Spirit was the Holy Spirit!?So the flesh = The Man.
The Spirit of Jesus = The Holy Spirit.Hmmmmmm.
Okay wrong thread for this.
But what do you think?
2beesee,Jesus had both his own and God's which is why he stated “not as I will but as you will”. God's Spirit is later called by Jesus' name. I can think of two different reasons why to do that.
Hi Kerwin, I will take this to the other thread, okay.Quote (abe @ Mar. 26 2013,01:04) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 25 2013,06:28) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2013,19:43) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 25 2013,05:44) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2013,02:49) T, My parable is not false.
When the Spirit speaks through a person that person speaks, jest as was the case of the Prophets.
When the Spirit speaks Jehovah speaks via it, since he dwells in believers by his Spirit.
In some cases a person that is without the Spirit acts like one with the Spirit.
We can judge a person's fruit but not their final destination.
Knot all are prophets ,and we are not in Christ times neither
T,Those that believe in the current times are greater than the Prophets as they have Jesus Christ to mediate for them and the Spirit living in them.
KBelieving and having the spirit living in them(?) ,so that Christ is mediating for them seems very vague in deed ,
Any addition to that
Hi T,When the Spirit speaks through a person that person speaks, jest as was the case of the Prophets.
When the Spirit speaks Jehovah speaks via it, since he dwells in believers by his Spirit.
WHY is this vague?
Those that believe in the current times are greater than the Prophets as they have Jesus Christ to mediate for them and the Spirit living in them.
Rom.8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for [our] adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
FIRSTFRUITS are our counselors.
Peace brother.
abedid you ever read the scriptures about true and false prophets ???if you did ,then are you comparing them to the believers in Christ ,and I am not talking about the apostles, but all the others that is ,???
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 26 2013,09:49) t8,
You are truly missing the point. Ignatius was a disciple of the writer of John 1:1. His thoughts should help clear up whether or not the second theos mentioned in John 1:1c is likely a second identity who is understood to be as our God also or not.
Kathi, I have not missed the point.Because if he begins that section with:
Most High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son;
It then stands to reason that all that is to follow will not contradict this but support it. Knowing that “theos” has a wide range of uses, it is also logical that he would not use “theos” as applied to Jesus in a way to contradict his opening line.
If however, he does apply “theos” inappropriately or in a way that contradicts his opening line, then he is not a worthy teacher.
Neither case helps your view. Both are detrimental to the case you are making. Thus, quoting this text to support your view had been counterproductive for you.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 25 2013,14:28) Quote (abe @ Mar. 26 2013,01:04) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 25 2013,06:28) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2013,19:43) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 25 2013,05:44) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2013,02:49) T, My parable is not false.
When the Spirit speaks through a person that person speaks, jest as was the case of the Prophets.
When the Spirit speaks Jehovah speaks via it, since he dwells in believers by his Spirit.
In some cases a person that is without the Spirit acts like one with the Spirit.
We can judge a person's fruit but not their final destination.
Knot all are prophets ,and we are not in Christ times neither
T,Those that believe in the current times are greater than the Prophets as they have Jesus Christ to mediate for them and the Spirit living in them.
KBelieving and having the spirit living in them(?) ,so that Christ is mediating for them seems very vague in deed ,
Any addition to that
Hi T,When the Spirit speaks through a person that person speaks, jest as was the case of the Prophets.
When the Spirit speaks Jehovah speaks via it, since he dwells in believers by his Spirit.
WHY is this vague?
Those that believe in the current times are greater than the Prophets as they have Jesus Christ to mediate for them and the Spirit living in them.
Rom.8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for [our] adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
FIRSTFRUITS are our counselors.
Peace brother.
abedid you ever read the scriptures about true and false prophets ???if you did ,then are you comparing them to the believers in Christ ,and I am not talking about the apostles, but all the others that is ,???
Hi T,(quote)
did you ever read the scriptures about true and false prophets ???if you did ,then are you comparing them to the believers in Christ ,and I am not talking about the apostles, but all the others that is ,???I am sorry, but I don't understand your question?
Peace brother…
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