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I was raised Baptist. However, I never really got where they were seeing the trinity in scripture. It always seemed clear to me that God literally sent His Son. Never did I see it that God exists in three separate “beings.”
This is not a debate about if the trinity is true or not!!! My point is….I love the church environment. I love hearing, as well as reading the word of God. I love the fellowship. I love the singing of hymns. As I search and search for a church, I can not find one that does not believe in the trinity. I look at those religions that do not believe in the trinity; yet they have their own problems (JW, Mormons, Dawn bible students, Christian Scientist, etc).
Is there a church for me? Is there a church that does not believe in the trinity, believes that Jesus rose in the flesh, that you must repent and ask for salvation through Christ? I know that I do not need a “building”. If such a church does not exist, I will continue to do a home bible study. However, I do not want to go and sit in a church in which I disagree with their doctrine. As it has been said 90% true of anything is 100% false!!
I thank everyone here that takes the time to read and/or comment on my post. God is Great!!!
Hi JB, welcome.
You are not alone if you worship God in spirit and in truth. God will not leave you nor forsake you.
I'm in the same boat, jb2u.
I agree with most of the JWs understanding of scripture – but I believe that they, like the Pharisees, add too many of their own man-made rules to the scriptures.
The Unitarians believe Jesus was truly the Son of God (not God Himself, or a part of God), but they don't believe Jesus existed with God before all things were created through him. They believe his life began when he was born of Mary.
I'm sorry, but I don't have an answer for you. I have been Bible studying at home for about four years now, because of this dilemma.
I don't even know how to go about finding someone in my area to baptize me in Jesus' name, without the underlying implications that Jesus is God Almighty, the Son.
I don't suppose we're the only ones with this problem. I'm open for suggestions as well.
peace,
mikeWelcome jb2u,
I advise you to stay in a church that believes in the Nicene Creed. Do you agree with the Nicene Creed? I believe some trinitarians agree that God sent His literal Son. I believe in a literal Son and believe that He was within the Father eternally until He was begotten from the Father before creation. I believe that is a common belief even among the early church. Trinitarians do not say that they can even explain this doctrine but the Nicene Creed is a common agreement among Protestant churches and I do not find anything wrong with it.
You have to admit that there is a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit and there is some type of oneness. If you go to a Protestant church you will share a belief with most in an existence and dependency on the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit for creation and salvation.
No Protestant church is perfect but they that agree on the Nicene Creed will believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Do you believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Do you agree with the Nicene Creed? Here it is as the early edition:
I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.Remember that 'Catholic' church is used in a general sense to include Christian churches in general, not specifically the Roman Catholic Church.
I hope you enjoy your stay and that you will find HN a safe place to give and receive input to challenge you and sharpen you as you study God's Word.
Blessings!
I have more to say
I agree with you, JB that we do need to mix in with a group of other believers, otherwise we become isolated, and we spend our time on FORUMS which is not good for us, IMO.
The world is full of people, and in amongst those people are BELIEVERS. How to find a group of believers who are welcoming and kind and non-judgmental, who can help and guide us and teach us what we need to know without putting any pressure on us to conform to their own beliefs, is what we need to find. A place where we can feel comfortable, a place where we WANT to go every Sunday (or Saturday).
Sometimes, I have found that trinity or non trinity has little effect on the atmosphere. Often times, even if they do NOt believe in the Trinity,there are other issues.
Personally I have found my chosen church, but even then there are things that i am not comfortable with.
I thought that perhaps following the Scripture that says “where two or three are gathered, there am I in their midst” was the way to go. It did work, for a while. But if things don't work out then you are back to square one and all alone.
So I don't know.
We are all in this together!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 12 2013,14:35) I don't even know how to go about finding someone in my area to baptize me in Jesus' name, without the underlying implications that Jesus is God Almighty, the Son. Good one Mike
I mean about Baptism.Thank you all for the comments.
2besee – I agree with you about Scripture saying “where two or three are gathered, there am I in their midst” In fact, I am of the belief that we no longer NEED a church. I believe that Jesus made it so that we could have a direct link and relationship with our GOD. That being said, I know I don't need the church. I can worship GOD where ever I go. I can talk to GOD where ever I am, and He hears me. I am just looking for fellowship. I am not comfortable listening to a doctrine that I do not believe. Additionally, I believe I can discern between doctrine that supports my beliefs or not, but my children have yet to develop their beliefs; and so, I do not want their growing minds corrupted. Does that make sense?
Lightenup – I'd first ask which Nicene Creed you believe, as it has changed? It appears by what you have posted that you believe in the second one. No, I'd say I disagree with the Nicene Creed. I put my faith in the inspired Bible and not in the beliefs of man. I in no way support a belief that the Son of God is God. I do not even want to get into the Holy Spirit as God. Like I said, this is not about an argument for or against the trinity. I am just wondering if anyone found a church that believes a non-trinitarian doctrine, but still believes that Jesus was resurrected in the flesh, and that Jesus is the only way to salvation.
Mike – Yes, it seems we are in the same boat. I believe that there has to be a nondenominational church that believes in what the Bible actually teaches. Until I find them or the Lord comes back for me, I will keep studying the Bible at home.
Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 12 2013,14:13) I was raised Baptist. However, I never really got where they were seeing the trinity in scripture. It always seemed clear to me that God literally sent His Son. Never did I see it that God exists in three separate “beings.” This is not a debate about if the trinity is true or not!!! My point is….I love the church environment. I love hearing, as well as reading the word of God. I love the fellowship. I love the singing of hymns. As I search and search for a church, I can not find one that does not believe in the trinity. I look at those religions that do not believe in the trinity; yet they have their own problems (JW, Mormons, Dawn bible students, Christian Scientist, etc).
Is there a church for me? Is there a church that does not believe in the trinity, believes that Jesus rose in the flesh, that you must repent and ask for salvation through Christ? I know that I do not need a “building”. If such a church does not exist, I will continue to do a home bible study. However, I do not want to go and sit in a church in which I disagree with their doctrine. As it has been said 90% true of anything is 100% false!!
I thank everyone here that takes the time to read and/or comment on my post. God is Great!!!
jb2u, the Church you are looking for is the Body of Christ. It is the only Church made up of the sons of God.I am not playing games when I say this. The Body of Christ can be found in all kinds of places and not just denominations. My advice is to find like-minded believers and fellowship when you can. If you cannot, then make disciples like Paul and fellowship with them.
In saying that, I believe you can still have genuine fellowship with those who believe in the Trinity doctrine, so long as they believe that Jesus is the son of God. The people I would avoid are those who teach and are certain about the Trinity Doctrine because they are teaching men to break the first commandment. You will find that most Believers do not understand the Trinity anyway and speak of it rarely, while they will readily admit that Jesus is the son of God.
I also believe that a genuine Believer once shown the scriptures on this would change their mind because scripture is clear that for us, there is one God the Father and he sent his son into the world. This process could take time though.
I pray that you will be able to exercise wisdom regarding this.
This reminds me of the (arguably) greatest physicist of all time, Sir Isaac Newton. Much of his ground breaking work was kept from the public and released some 40 years later, when he believed the time was right. He was also a staunch Believer and he did not believe God was a Trinity, rather that Jesus was the son of God. He never chose to reveal his belief and conviction publicly for had he done that, he would have faced prison. He also believed that they were not ready to have this revealed to them at that time.
With myself, God told me to not reveal this to everyone as they are not ready and it might destroy what faith some already have. But he allowed me to write and share on the Web because the very nature of the Web was search and it is revealed to those who seek, for it is they who will find.
BTW, jb2u, please note that not all who talk in these forums are of like mind.
There are Trinitarians and others like Lightenup, who has her own spin on the Trinity, which is better described as the Binity. Beware of their leaven. Many opportunists come here looking for disciples to follow them, after all this is a public forum.
I believe if your heart is true, then you will see these people for what they are. However, they are useful because if there is any weakness in your doctrine or faith, they will expose it and this is a good thing because it forces us to change and move toward excellence.
Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 13 2013,02:43) Thank you all for the comments. 2besee – I agree with you about Scripture saying “where two or three are gathered, there am I in their midst” In fact, I am of the belief that we no longer NEED a church. I believe that Jesus made it so that we could have a direct link and relationship with our GOD. That being said, I know I don't need the church. I can worship GOD where ever I go. I can talk to GOD where ever I am, and He hears me. I am just looking for fellowship. I am not comfortable listening to a doctrine that I do not believe. Additionally, I believe I can discern between doctrine that supports my beliefs or not, but my children have yet to develop their beliefs; and so, I do not want their growing minds corrupted. Does that make sense?
Lightenup – I'd first ask which Nicene Creed you believe, as it has changed? It appears by what you have posted that you believe in the second one. No, I'd say I disagree with the Nicene Creed. I put my faith in the inspired Bible and not in the beliefs of man. I in no way support a belief that the Son of God is God. I do not even want to get into the Holy Spirit as God. Like I said, this is not about an argument for or against the trinity. I am just wondering if anyone found a church that believes a non-trinitarian doctrine, but still believes that Jesus was resurrected in the flesh, and that Jesus is the only way to salvation.
Mike – Yes, it seems we are in the same boat. I believe that there has to be a nondenominational church that believes in what the Bible actually teaches. Until I find them or the Lord comes back for me, I will keep studying the Bible at home.
Hi jb2u,How long have you been a christian for?
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2013,17:04) Hi jb2u, How long have you been a christian for?
Ed,What are you ending your sentence in a preposition for?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 13 2013,10:29) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 12 2013,17:04) Hi jb2u, How long have you been a christian for?
Ed,What are you ending your sentence in a preposition for?
Hi Mike,Is that incorrect English? If it is, sorry.
T8's on the war path again, so I may be gone. (Link)
But you know how to reach me.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgThank you terraricca, t8, and Ed J.
I'd say that I have been a Christian my “whole life,” at least since the age of accountability. I was saved and then baptized when I was 14 in my Baptist Church.
So, I'd say that I have always been a Christian. I am 38 now, by the way.
Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 12 2013,09:43) Additionally, I believe I can discern between doctrine that supports my beliefs or not, but my children have yet to develop their beliefs; and so, I do not want their growing minds corrupted. Does that make sense?
You'd be surprised how easily the truth of the scriptures comes to children, jb.My 11 year old son's mother takes him to a very nice church, with a pastor that is so powerful and entertaining. This guy has a great gift for public speaking – one that I wish I had. He keeps the congregations' attention effortlessly – and brilliantly teaches the messages of scripture.
BUT………. it is a non-denominational church that teaches the Trinity. And while the “Jesus is God Almighty” thing doesn't come up all the time, the pastor does occasionally do a 4 or 5 part lesson on that subject.
But here's the thing: When the pastor mentions the Trinity, or how Jesus is God, my son and his young friends ask me to explain how such a thing can be. They have been asking me questions for 5 years now – which means that ever since they were 6 years old, they already knew in their heart that it doesn't make sense for the Son OF God to BE God.
I love it that my son goes to this church every Sunday, because there are so many other things he learns about God and the scriptures – valuable lessons that DON'T rely on a Trinity teaching.
And when the Trinity teaching does occasionally come up, my son will tell me what the pastor taught – because it didn't sound logical to him – and we will together read the truth of the matter from scriptures themselves.
jb, this was a really long-winded way of telling you not to keep your children from church, or from a knowledge of the scriptures – just because you're afraid their minds will be corrupted. After all, kids don't readily accept the Trinity Doctrine on their own. That nonsense has to be hammered and hammered into their heads over the course of many years.
All you need to do is be aware that your church will, on occasion, teach the Trinity. When it happens, simply reason with your children. When my six year old group brought it up to me the first time by asking how Jesus could be God if he is the Son of God, all I had to do is ask them, “Does that really make sense to you?” THEY did the rest of the talking – each of them telling me how odd and illogical such a teaching was. Then we looked up some scriptures together, so they could see the truth with their own eyes.
Now they go to that church, and learn lots of great scriptural messages from this wonderful speaker – and just ignore the Trinity claims when they are made.
Kids are smart, jb. It will take years of you doing nothing at all before they slowly come to accept the crazy claim that the Son of God is God. Just don't let that happen.
peace,
mikeJb2u………I have had your problem for about 30 years, I had a friend who is now dead, and we would get together and discuss things in the bible together all the time and even had others we know that would come over once a week and join in our discussions , it was quite enjoyable. But let me tell you this if you think you will find a church that you can except for preaching the truth of scripture that has any attachment with the Trinity Doctrine or the Doctrine of Preexistent of Jesus before his berth on this earth , it will be a very difficult task if at all possible.
I have tried going to different churches with these doctrines as there basic teachings and they only produce a controversy in yourself. Most people just go to a church not even knowing they are being mislead are deceived IMO. The Unitarians are the closest to what I think you will believe and find agreeable. Another good teacher is Dr. Anthony Buzzard you might check him out.
Jb2u……..This site may be your church as you get to know people , but be prepared for a lot of controversy , but as the old saying goes ” Iron sharpen Iron, and it does get a little salty and testy at
time here , but I think we all do care and respect each other. You can call this the church of misfits and have fun and Learn at the same time. Join and tell us what you think brother. Peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Hi Gene,
Do you mean Dr. Anthony Buzzard?
OK, I see you fixed it now.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgjb2u,
That was the original Nicene Creed that I posted. Also, don't believe what t8 says about my beliefs. I do not believe in a binity. He gives others the wrong impression of me constantly and seems like he has a spirit of the accuser of the brethren. Beware.Also, you cannot escape the truth that God was with God in the beginning and that is speaking of the Son of God.
Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 13 2013,04:43) Thank you all for the comments. 2besee – I agree with you about Scripture saying “where two or three are gathered, there am I in their midst” In fact, I am of the belief that we no longer NEED a church. I believe that Jesus made it so that we could have a direct link and relationship with our GOD. That being said, I know I don't need the church. I can worship GOD where ever I go. I can talk to GOD where ever I am, and He hears me. I am just looking for fellowship. I am not comfortable listening to a doctrine that I do not believe. Additionally, I believe I can discern between doctrine that supports my beliefs or not, but my children have yet to develop their beliefs; and so, I do not want their growing minds corrupted. Does that make sense?
Lightenup – I'd first ask which Nicene Creed you believe, as it has changed? It appears by what you have posted that you believe in the second one. No, I'd say I disagree with the Nicene Creed. I put my faith in the inspired Bible and not in the beliefs of man. I in no way support a belief that the Son of God is God. I do not even want to get into the Holy Spirit as God. Like I said, this is not about an argument for or against the trinity. I am just wondering if anyone found a church that believes a non-trinitarian doctrine, but still believes that Jesus was resurrected in the flesh, and that Jesus is the only way to salvation.
Mike – Yes, it seems we are in the same boat. I believe that there has to be a nondenominational church that believes in what the Bible actually teaches. Until I find them or the Lord comes back for me, I will keep studying the Bible at home.
Hi JB,
Well said.I think that no matter what we decide, we have to make sure that we do not turn into those type of people who search alone and after many years come up with what they think is absolute truth. but clearly they have become a bit delusional (in their time alone), because no matter what anyone shows them, they will not see that they are clearly in error. They will even neglect the clear scriptures that show them to be in error.
I am a big believer in “where two or three are gathered” but even then, we have to make sure that we are not misleading them or that they are not misleading us. We have to be aware of that, but we also have to put the well-being of the other before our own. This is when we may be tested, and it is when we can say the wrong thing and regret it. Where two or three are gathered, there needs to be love and concern and patience. Jesus NEEDS TO BE THERE among them, with the peace that He gives.
So much to say, but I will leave it at that for now.
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