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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:46) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:30) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:25) Isn't turning the other cheek an act of defiance against the Romans? Because a back-handed slap was not done with the left hand, it forced the person doing the slapping to use an open hand, in effect a demand by the person being slapped to be treated as an equal.
Stuart
STUI dont see how loving your enemys supports your explanation of turning the other cheek, do you?
WJ
It doesn't.Stuart
STUCorrect. So Jesus was speaking the truth and you are not!
WJ
No, Jesus was telling people to rebel against the Romans. You are assuming he was saying something else, then saying that means this interpretation is wrong.Christianity is in part the art of circular logic, I grant you.
Stuart
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:37) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:23) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:17) Which of the several writers who contributed to the 'writing of Moses' are we discussing here? The Moses who described his own death?
Stuart
STUYou make my point. Your unbelief does not allow for the possibility that the God of Moses is powerful enough to show Moses the events surrounding his own death.
After all he wrote Gen 1:1 didnt he?
WJ
I don't know who wrote Gen 1:1. I don't think you can be sure about it. There are at least 5 distinct writing styles to choose from, and depending on your choice of sholarship, either four distinct sources or many fragements by anonymous writers.It would indeed be blind faith to believe in a single divine-inspired author, and I would suggest gullible as well.
Stuart
STUCan you show me some evidence of your claim. For you seem to speak with certainty that Moses didnt write them yet at the same time doubt that Moses did!
Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:28) It would indeed be blind faith to believe in a single divine-inspired author, and I would suggest gullible as well. Not blind, but faith born of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
WJ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah#Academic_analysishttp://www.bluethread.com/whowrotetorah.htm
Like I said, choose your scholarship. No one I can find who knows anything about it believes the traditional view.
If your faith comes from the so-called word of god, to be found in the bible, then your only argument is the circular logic of believing the torah is right because it says so in the torah.
Not even the torah means torah when it says torah!
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,21:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:46) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:30) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:25) Isn't turning the other cheek an act of defiance against the Romans? Because a back-handed slap was not done with the left hand, it forced the person doing the slapping to use an open hand, in effect a demand by the person being slapped to be treated as an equal.
Stuart
STUI dont see how loving your enemys supports your explanation of turning the other cheek, do you?
WJ
It doesn't.Stuart
STUCorrect. So Jesus was speaking the truth and you are not!
WJ
No, Jesus was telling people to rebel against the Romans. You are assuming he was saying something else, then saying that means this interpretation is wrong.Christianity is in part the art of circular logic, I grant you.
Stuart
STUWhere is your evidence then?
I at least show you scriptures from the most reliable source ever written!
WJ
Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,21:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:37) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,12:23) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:17) Which of the several writers who contributed to the 'writing of Moses' are we discussing here? The Moses who described his own death?
Stuart
STUYou make my point. Your unbelief does not allow for the possibility that the God of Moses is powerful enough to show Moses the events surrounding his own death.
After all he wrote Gen 1:1 didnt he?
WJ
I don't know who wrote Gen 1:1. I don't think you can be sure about it. There are at least 5 distinct writing styles to choose from, and depending on your choice of sholarship, either four distinct sources or many fragements by anonymous writers.It would indeed be blind faith to believe in a single divine-inspired author, and I would suggest gullible as well.
Stuart
STUCan you show me some evidence of your claim. For you seem to speak with certainty that Moses didnt write them yet at the same time doubt that Moses did!
Quote (Stu @ July 20 2009,20:28) It would indeed be blind faith to believe in a single divine-inspired author, and I would suggest gullible as well. Not blind, but faith born of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
WJ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah#Academic_analysishttp://www.bluethread.com/whowrotetorah.htm
Like I said, choose your scholarship. No one I can find who knows anything about it believes the traditional view.
If your faith comes from the so-called word of god, to be found in the bible, then your only argument is the circular logic of believing the torah is right because it says so in the torah.
Not even the torah means torah when it says torah!
Stuart
STUMy faith comes to me from both the written word and the spoken word.
I do not expect you to understand.
I have chosen my scholarship! Sorry it doesnt agree with your source!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,07:15) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 20 2009,16:34) My mistake. I did, in fact, misunderstand part of your answer.
You appear to be saying that believing Moses is a prerequisite to believing Jesus. Fair enough.
My two questions still stand, with the added twist: Why would anyone who “believes Moses” trust the NT words of Jesus, when they clearly seem to contradict on certain points?
In other words, how does a belief in Moses help anyone believe in the NT? There are plenty of Jews who would attest to the contrary, so it's clearly not automatic.
What specifically in the writings of Moses compels one to believe the NT? Give me one example!
Great volley, but the ball is back in your court.
WITI have answered you.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 20 2009,16:34) What specifically in the writings of Moses compels one to believe the NT? Give me one example! The witness of the Holy Spirit, Jesus own words and the Apostles who quoted many of Moses writings! I believe them by faith.
As far as your questions about Jesus disagreeing with Moses, that is the way you see it.
Jesus in no way said Moses writings were invalid or contradicted Moses. Jesus simply introduced the New Covenant and said he came to fulfill the law.
Now instead of Eye for Eye it is turn the other cheek and love those who persecute you!
WJ
I must be having a slow day, because I can't see how this:Quote The witness of the Holy Spirit, Jesus own words and the Apostles who quoted many of Moses writings! I believe them by faith. is an answer to this:
Quote What specifically in the writings of Moses compels one to believe the NT? Give me one example! To me, your answer looks like a complete non-answer to the actual question that I raised.
In answer to my other questions, you wrote:
Quote Jesus in no way said Moses writings were invalid or contradicted Moses. Then you wrote:
Quote Now instead of Eye for Eye it is turn the other cheek and love those who persecute you! How ironic!
Just for the record, here are the two passages in question.
Deuteronomy 19:21: Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Matthew 5:38-39: “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Anybody else see a contradiction?
WJ
You are welcome to your self-imposed slavery to mythology, but do not complain when the next crackpot comes along with his book of spells and expects you to respect it. By rejecting evidence as an arbiter you have no case against anyone else's nonsense.
Stuart
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 20 2009,22:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,07:15) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 20 2009,16:34) My mistake. I did, in fact, misunderstand part of your answer.
You appear to be saying that believing Moses is a prerequisite to believing Jesus. Fair enough.
My two questions still stand, with the added twist: Why would anyone who “believes Moses” trust the NT words of Jesus, when they clearly seem to contradict on certain points?
In other words, how does a belief in Moses help anyone believe in the NT? There are plenty of Jews who would attest to the contrary, so it's clearly not automatic.
What specifically in the writings of Moses compels one to believe the NT? Give me one example!
Great volley, but the ball is back in your court.
WITI have answered you.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 20 2009,16:34) What specifically in the writings of Moses compels one to believe the NT? Give me one example! The witness of the Holy Spirit, Jesus own words and the Apostles who quoted many of Moses writings! I believe them by faith.
As far as your questions about Jesus disagreeing with Moses, that is the way you see it.
Jesus in no way said Moses writings were invalid or contradicted Moses. Jesus simply introduced the New Covenant and said he came to fulfill the law.
Now instead of Eye for Eye it is turn the other cheek and love those who persecute you!
WJ
I must be having a slow day, because I can't see how this:Quote The witness of the Holy Spirit, Jesus own words and the Apostles who quoted many of Moses writings! I believe them by faith. is an answer to this:
Quote What specifically in the writings of Moses compels one to believe the NT? Give me one example! To me, your answer looks like a complete non-answer to the actual question that I raised.
In answer to my other questions, you wrote:
Quote Jesus in no way said Moses writings were invalid or contradicted Moses. Then you wrote:
Quote Now instead of Eye for Eye it is turn the other cheek and love those who persecute you! How ironic!
Just for the record, here are the two passages in question.
Deuteronomy 19:21: Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Matthew 5:38-39: “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Anybody else see a contradiction?
Hi WITQuote (WhatIsTrue @ July 20 2009,22:58) To me, your answer looks like a complete non-answer to the actual question that I raised.
Sorry you are displeased. But that is all the answer you are going to get from me.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 20 2009,22:58) The witness of the Holy Spirit, Jesus own words and the Apostles who quoted many of Moses writings! I believe them by faith. Why? Because I choose not to have discourse about scriptures with someone who does not believe them (all of them).
You may ask why? Here is your answer…
I have had discourse with you and others like you before, and it only ended up going no where and was a waste of my time and theirs, simply because they have their minds made up that the scriptures are corrupt. That is their right.
In past experience I have realized that no matter what, those who have taken that position are only interested in casting doubt and unbelief on the scriptures, not to mention that it is engaging with someone who does not play by the same rules of debate.
For instance, If I show you unambiguous scriptural proof of something that you do not believe, then you would just claim corrupt.
For example when I quoted John 14:6 your response was…
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 20 2009,14:55) So, is it fair to say that there is no compelling evidence that Jesus said the things that you quoted?
See what I mean?So therefore I have resolved not to engage in heated debate with someone who is full of doubt over the written word of God and who has made up their minds.
Just so you know, I do not really care what you will call me or what you will say about it.
You see WIT, I am not looking in the writings of Moses to see what compels me to believe the NT, nor visa versa, that is what unbelievers and antagonist do. So have at it.
But I hope that you find your answers for WIT!
Blessings WJ
WJ
Why did you ask for evidence concerning the multiple authorship of the torah?
It appears from you answer to WIT that only you can give proof for your own beliefs but when others show you their evidence your faith just trumps everthing.
Are you seven years old?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,05:29) WJ Why did you ask for evidence concerning the multiple authorship of the torah?
It appears from you answer to WIT that only you can give proof for your own beliefs but when others show you their evidence your faith just trumps everthing.
Are you seven years old?
Stuart
Hi STUBecause as far as I am concerned your evidence is not evidence.
I thought I made that clear!
But continue on with your insults.
LOL, and you assume I am the child!
WJ
Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,05:29) WJ Why did you ask for evidence concerning the multiple authorship of the torah?
It appears from you answer to WIT that only you can give proof for your own beliefs but when others show you their evidence your faith just trumps everthing.
Are you seven years old?
Stuart
Hi STUBTW, Faith always trumps unbelief!
WJ
WorshippingJesus,
Let's review.
In response to TimVI's question, “What makes you so positive that you are right and they are wrong?“, you wrote (in part) the following:
Quote I think Jesus own words sets the record straight. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6
But then one might say, “that is if that is the words of Jesus”.
Which brings us back to the foundation of the Christian doctrine…
We walk by faith.
This seemed to me like you were saying that believing that Jesus really said the words attributed to him in John 14:6 is a matter of faith, not evidence. So, then I innocently asked, “So, is it fair to say that there is no compelling evidence that Jesus said the things that you quoted?“
Your response:
Quote The answer is “I” nor Jesus himself can convince you or anyone that his words are true if you do not believe Moses writings, in fact Jesus said if they do not believe the words of Moses they would not believe if someone was raised from the dead to tell them. Luke 16:29-31 This appeared to me to be an appeal to Moses as a witness for Christ. In fact, v29 reads (in part), “They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.” So, stipulating that whatever Moses says is true, I innocently asked, “Can you give me one example of the evidence in the writings of Moses that support the idea that the NT is authentic and that the recorded words of Jesus within the NT are accurate?“
Your response: Same as above, plus … .
Quote No proof, only a confession of faith! This is why we have the Spirit of Truth to guide and lead us into all truth! At which point, I should have reiterated my earlier question, “So, is it fair to say that there is no compelling evidence that Jesus said the things that you quoted?” But, I didn't, so I lose brownie points for not being sufficiently astute.
After going around the mulberry bush a few times, you finally say:
Quote You see WIT, I am not looking in the writings of Moses to see what compels me to believe the NT, nor visa versa, that is what unbelievers and antagonist do. Which, again, seems highly ironic, given that you were the one who brought up Moses in the first place, and that your attitude seems to contradict the spirit of Luke 16:29.
I can think of only one fitting way to end this exchange:
2 Timothy 4:2: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
I guess that you weren't willing to suffer my questions for very long.
I didn't think that asking for one example was a very tall order, but evidently, it was.WIT
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 21 2009,14:43) This seemed to me like you were saying that believing that Jesus really said the words attributed to him in John 14:6 is a matter of faith, not evidence. So, then I innocently asked, “So, is it fair to say that there is no compelling evidence that Jesus said the things that you quoted?”
So it seemed to you, but you are wrong.My statement was about faith because I knew that no matter what scripture I quote to “antagonist” against the scriptures, I have to defend it by faith, because they do not believe it is evidence!
However if I take a scripture like John 14:6 and quote it to a believer in the inspired scriptures then it would be taken “as evidence” that Jesus is the “Only Way” to God and all other ways are false by Jesus own words.
So I anticipated a response in the unbelievers thread and lo and behold I was right!
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 21 2009,14:43) I guess that you weren't willing to suffer my questions for very long. I didn't think that asking for one example was a very tall order, but evidently, it was.
But my answer should have been enough! But instead you want to go down the road of unbelief and critisism of the Holy Scriptures, and not because you are truly interested in an answer from me, but only to make your own point, IMO.So you are right I am not willing to suffer the unbelief of someone who has made their mind up about the scriptures!
Maybe t8 should block this thread from believers because I do not belong here!
BTW, Why would you quote from scriptures that you believe are corrupt?
Later, and hope you find WIT!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,03:37) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,05:29) WJ Why did you ask for evidence concerning the multiple authorship of the torah?
It appears from you answer to WIT that only you can give proof for your own beliefs but when others show you their evidence your faith just trumps everthing.
Are you seven years old?
Stuart
Hi STUBTW, Faith always trumps unbelief!
WJ
But that was not the point I made. You are claiming that your faith trumps real physical evidence. If you apply that without discrimination then you get suicide bombings and murders of medical staff.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,15:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,03:37) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,05:29) WJ Why did you ask for evidence concerning the multiple authorship of the torah?
It appears from you answer to WIT that only you can give proof for your own beliefs but when others show you their evidence your faith just trumps everthing.
Are you seven years old?
Stuart
Hi STUBTW, Faith always trumps unbelief!
WJ
But that was not the point I made. You are claiming that your faith trumps real physical evidence. If you apply that without discrimination then you get suicide bombings and murders of medical staff.Stuart
Hi STUThe funny thing is one has to still believe the evidence.
You have not presented any evidence that the Torah was not written by Moses, but only what you believe is physical evidence!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,08:06) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,15:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,03:37) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,05:29) WJ Why did you ask for evidence concerning the multiple authorship of the torah?
It appears from you answer to WIT that only you can give proof for your own beliefs but when others show you their evidence your faith just trumps everthing.
Are you seven years old?
Stuart
Hi STUBTW, Faith always trumps unbelief!
WJ
But that was not the point I made. You are claiming that your faith trumps real physical evidence. If you apply that without discrimination then you get suicide bombings and murders of medical staff.Stuart
Hi STUThe funny thing is one has to still believe the evidence.
You have not presented any evidence that the Torah was not written by Moses, but only what you believe is physical evidence!
WJ
It is not possible to prove a negative. It is not me claiming the torah was written by Moses, it is you making that claim so you have the burden of proof of that positive statement. The textual evidence is against there being just one author, but you make your assertion anyway, without evidence. Anyway, what do you care about evidence? Whatever I say, your faith 'wins' doesn't it? You have the perfect answer to every question, that of the seven year old.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,16:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,08:06) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,15:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,03:37) Quote (Stu @ July 21 2009,05:29) WJ Why did you ask for evidence concerning the multiple authorship of the torah?
It appears from you answer to WIT that only you can give proof for your own beliefs but when others show you their evidence your faith just trumps everthing.
Are you seven years old?
Stuart
Hi STUBTW, Faith always trumps unbelief!
WJ
But that was not the point I made. You are claiming that your faith trumps real physical evidence. If you apply that without discrimination then you get suicide bombings and murders of medical staff.Stuart
Hi STUThe funny thing is one has to still believe the evidence.
You have not presented any evidence that the Torah was not written by Moses, but only what you believe is physical evidence!
WJ
It is not possible to prove a negative. It is not me claiming the torah was written by Moses, it is you making that claim so you have the burden of proof of that positive statement. The textual evidence is against there being just one author, but you make your assertion anyway, without evidence. Anyway, what do you care about evidence? Whatever I say, your faith 'wins' doesn't it? You have the perfect answer to every question, that of the seven year old.Stuart
Hi STUHow Ironic that you “believe” everything you are saying!
So continue on with your insults!
LOL, and you are still claiming that I am the child?
WJ!
WorshippingJesus wrote:
Quote However if I take a scripture like John 14:6 and quote it to a believer in the inspired scriptures then it would be taken “as evidence” that Jesus is the “Only Way” to God and all other ways are false by Jesus own words. I think that this sums up the misunderstanding perfectly. You are attempting to provide evidence for someone who is already a believer, not for someone who is searching for Truth in general. I think that this is generally called “preaching to the choir.”
As you astutely point out:
Quote Maybe t8 should block this thread from believers because I do not belong here! Except, you should exercise self-control and simply ban yourself, as your answers aren't useful for those who are genuinely searching but who also may not be sure about the scriptures. You should leave the apologetics to believers who are prepared to defend their faith to non-believers and others with unanswered questions.
For the record, I am open to going wherever the evidence leads me. So, if you had provided any, I would have considered it, (along with the many fence-sitters who read a thread like this but don't post).
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