No one could answer him

This topic is empty.

Viewing 20 posts - 101 through 120 (of 272 total)

←1 2 3…567…12 13 14 →

Author
Posts

August 29, 2013 at 3:59 am#356458

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Colter @ Aug. 29 2013,04:05)

The default setting is always the same, any new truth, expanded truth, is always met with fear, threats of demonic influence, devils and such. Frightened people such as these go so far as to murder.

On the other-hand, lies are to be avoided too.

When truth is revealed it will be met with lies to counter it.

Sometime those who believe lies think a bad reaction means they are scared. When in actual fact, it is just a snub because they have seen the true light, and the counterfeit one is of no interest to them.

August 29, 2013 at 10:28 am#356469

Spock

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 29 2013,14:59)

Quote (Colter @ Aug. 29 2013,04:05)

The default setting is always the same, any new truth, expanded truth, is always met with fear, threats of demonic influence, devils and such. Frightened people such as these go so far as to murder.

On the other-hand, lies are to be avoided too.

When truth is revealed it will be met with lies to counter it.

Later Discussion at the Camp

(1916.1) 176:3.1 As they gathered about the campfire, some twenty of them, Thomas asked: “Since you are to return to finish the work of the kingdom, what should be our attitude while you are away on the Father’s business?” As Jesus looked them over by the firelight, he answered:

(1916.2) 176:3.2 “And even you, Thomas, fail to comprehend what I have been saying. Have I not all this time taught you that your connection with the kingdom is spiritual and individual, wholly a matter of personal experience in the spirit by the faith-realization that you are a son of God? What more shall I say? The downfall of nations, the crash of empires, the destruction of the unbelieving Jews, the end of an age, even the end of the world, what have these things to do with one who believes this gospel, and who has hid his life in the surety of the eternal kingdom? You who are God-knowing and gospel-believing have already received the assurances of eternal life. Since your lives have been lived in the spirit and for the Father, nothing can be of serious concern to you. Kingdom builders, the accredited citizens of the heavenly worlds, are not to be disturbed by temporal upheavals or perturbed by terrestrial cataclysms. What does it matter to you who believe this gospel of the kingdom if nations overturn, the age ends, or all things visible crash, since you know that your life is the gift of the Son, and that it is eternally secure in the Father? Having lived the temporal life by faith and having yielded the fruits of the spirit as the righteousness of loving service for your fellows, you can confidently look forward to the next step in the eternal career with the same survival faith that has carried you through your first and earthly adventure in sonship with God.

(1916.3) 176:3.3 “Each generation of believers should carry on their work, in view of the possible return of the Son of Man, exactly as each individual believer carries forward his lifework in view of inevitable and ever-impending natural death. When you have by faith once established yourself as a son of God, nothing else matters as regards the surety of survival. But make no mistake! this survival faith is a living faith, and it increasingly manifests the fruits of that divine spirit which first inspired it in the human heart. That you have once accepted sonship in the heavenly kingdom will not save you in the face of the knowing and persistent rejection of those truths which have to do with the progressive spiritual fruit-bearing of the sons of God in the flesh. You who have been with me in the Father’s business on earth can even now desert the kingdom if you find that you love not the way of the Father’s service for mankind.

(1916.4) 176:3.4 “As individuals, and as a generation of believers, hear me while I speak a parable: There was a certain great man who, before starting out on a long journey to another country, called all his trusted servants before him and delivered into their hands all his goods. To one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one. And so on down through the entire group of honored stewards, to each he intrusted his goods according to their several abilities; and then he set out on his journey. When their lord had departed, his servants set themselves at work to gain profits from the wealth intrusted to them. Immediately he who had received five talents began to trade with them and very soon had made a profit of another five talents. In like manner he who had received two talents soon had gained two more. And so did all of these servants make gains for their master except him who received but one talent. He went away by himself and dug a hole in the earth where he hid his lord’s money. Presently the lord of those servants unexpectedly returned and called upon his stewards for a reckoning. And when they had all been called before their master, he who had received the five talents came forward with the money which had been intrusted to him and brought five additional talents, saying, ‘Lord, you gave me five talents to invest, and I am glad to present five other talents as my gain.’ And then his lord said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful servant, you have been faithful over a few things; I will now set you as steward over many; enter forthwith into the joy of your lord.’ And then he who had received the two talents came forward, saying: ‘Lord, you delivered into my hands two talents; behold, I have gained these other two talents.’ And his lord then said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful steward; you also have been faithful over a few things, and I will now set you over many; enter you into the joy of your lord.’ And then there came to the accounting he who had received the one talent. This servant came forward, saying, ‘Lord, I knew you and realized that you were a shrewd man in that you expected gains where you had not personally labored; therefore was I afraid to risk aught of that which was intrusted to me. I safely hid your talent in the earth; here it is; you now have what belongs to you.’ But his lord answered: ‘You are an indolent and slothful steward. By your own words you confess that you knew I would require of you an accounting with reasonable profit, such as your diligent fellow servants have this day rendered. Knowing this, you ought, therefore, to have at least put my money into the hands of the bankers that on my return I might have received my own with interest.’ And then to the chief steward this lord said: ‘Take away this one talent from this unprofitable servant and give it to him who has the ten talents.’*

(1917.1) 176:3.5 “To every one who has, more shall be given, and he shall have abundance; but from him who has not, even that which he has shall be taken away. You cannot stand still in the affairs of the eternal kingdom. My Father requires all his children to grow in grace and in a knowledge of the truth. You who know these truths must yield the increase of the fruits of the spirit and manifest a growing devotion to the unselfish service of your fellow servants. And remember that, inasmuch as you minister to one of the least of my brethren, you have done this service to me.

(1917.2) 176:3.6 “And so should you go about the work of the Father’s business, now and henceforth, even forevermore. Carry on until I come. In faithfulness do that which is intrusted to you, and thereby shall you be ready for the reckoning call of death. And having thus lived for the glory of the Father and the satisfaction of the Son, you shall enter with joy and exceedingly great pleasure into the eternal service of the everlasting kingdom.”

(1917.3) 176:3.7 Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service. You are not given truth to crystallize into settled, safe, and honored forms. Your revelation of truth must be so enhanced
by passing through your personal experience that new beauty and actual spiritual gains will be disclosed to all who behold your spiritual fruits and in consequence thereof are led to glorify the Father who is in heaven. Only those faithful servants who thus grow in the knowledge of the truth, and who thereby develop the capacity for divine appreciation of spiritual realities, can ever hope to “enter fully into the joy of their Lord.” What a sorry sight for successive generations of the professed followers of Jesus to say, regarding their stewardship of divine truth: “Here, Master, is the truth you committed to us a hundred or a thousand years ago. We have lost nothing; we have faithfully preserved all you gave us; we have allowed no changes to be made in that which you taught us; here is the truth you gave us.” But such a plea concerning spiritual indolence will not justify the barren steward of truth in the presence of the Master. In accordance with the truth committed to your hands will the Master of truth require a reckoning.

(1918.1) 176:3.8 In the next world you will be asked to give an account of the endowments and stewardships of this world. Whether inherent talents are few or many, a just and merciful reckoning must be faced. If endowments are used only in selfish pursuits and no thought is bestowed upon the higher duty of obtaining increased yield of the fruits of the spirit, as they are manifested in the ever-expanding service of men and the worship of God, such selfish stewards must accept the consequences of their deliberate choosing.

(1918.2) 176:3.9 And how much like all selfish mortals was this unfaithful servant with the one talent in that he blamed his slothfulness directly upon his lord. How prone is man, when he is confronted with the failures of his own making, to put the blame upon others, oftentimes upon those who least deserve it!

(1918.3) 176:3.10 Said Jesus that night as they went to their rest: “Freely have you received; therefore freely should you give of the truth of heaven, and in the giving will this truth multiply and show forth the increasing light of saving grace, even as you minister it.” UB 1955

Colter

August 29, 2013 at 3:16 pm#356486

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 29 2013,13:17)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 27 2013,23:24)

scripture does not say they made the blood

Please Concede:

10 Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake.

11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:

12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake.

Please concede that MEN do NOT have the power to turn wooden staffs into living snakes.

20 Moses and Aaron did just as the Lord had commanded. He raised his staff in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials and struck the water of the Nile, and all the water was changed into blood.

21 The fish in the Nile died, and the river smelled so bad that the Egyptians could not drink its water. Blood was everywhere in Egypt.

22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts……..

Please concede that MEN can NOT make water turn into blood.

6 So Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt, and the frogs came up and covered the land.

7 But the magicians did the same things by their secret arts; they also made frogs come up on the land of Egypt.

Please concede that MEN do NOT have the power to produce frogs out of thin air.

Asana, are MEN capable of doing THE SAME THINGS Jehovah did in the three examples above? YES or NO?

Will you concede that “they did the SAME THINGS” does NOT equate to “they did ILLUSIONS that LOOKED LIKE they were doing the same things”? YES or NO?

Will you concede that ONLY supernatural forces are capable of doing these kinds of things? YES or NO?

Will you concede that there was a REASON Jehovah not only punished the beasts and people of Egypt, but ALSO brought judgment against the GODS OF EGYPT? YES or NO?

You are simply in denial, man. If I get more of the same denial crap from you tomorrow, I will move on to Job.

What I can see here is your argument is if something supernatural occurs it is because of a “god” so any spirit that can do anything you cannot is a god to you?

strangely you do not understand how the term “gods” most always refer to idols. Genesis 35:4
So they gave Jacob all the foreign gods they had and the rings in their ears, and Jacob buried them under the oak at Shechem.

are these real gods?

You see when you tend to have a polytheistic mind it becomesdifficult to even understand what GOD is. Once you understand what GOD actually is you will clearly see that there is no other “God” nor any other being worthy to be called such.

Deuteronomy 4:28
There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.

So I am glad that we have come to agree what you think a god is but this is why I asked everyone about Monotheism versus Polytheism. My view is Monotheistic your view is still Polytheistic although you do focus mainly on one or two gods.

This info helps conversations

August 31, 2013 at 4:31 pm#356560

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 29 2013,09:16)

What I can see here is your argument is if something supernatural occurs it is because of a “god” so any spirit that can do anything you cannot is a god to you?

EXACTLY! And that is because I'VE accepted the BIBLICAL understanding of el/theos/god.

Read Webster's definition once again:

Any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature.

Do you understand that THIS is the BIBLICAL definition of “god”?

And yes, sometimes men simply carved idols out of wood, metal, or stone, and attributed great powers to those inanimate images they made. But even those were never called “false gods” in scripture. They were called “no gods at all”.

BUT……………….

Other times, the man-made images were made to be earthly representations OF a real supernatural being. Take the example where Aaron was coerced into making the golden calf. The Israelites made the calf to REPRESENT the supernatural being who DID lead them out of Egypt. Surely they didn't believe that a god they just made today was the god who led them out of Egypt months ago. It was a REPRESENTATION OF a very real supernatural being who did very real signs and wonders to lead them out of captivity. (Of course they got it wrong, but the calf itself wasn't the “god”, Asana. The calf was the REPRESENTATION OF the god who saved them.)

So are idols real gods? Of course not. But were they sometimes the earthly REPRESENTATIONS OF real supernatural beings? Absolutely!

The Asherah pole is another example. The wooden pole itself was not a god, but the earthly image used to worship a real supernatural being.

Asana, the difference between us is this:

1 Kings 11:33
I will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molek the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in obedience to me…….

I read these words of Jehovah, and have no reason whatsoever to assume He is talking about “false gods”……… because never in any scripture are they CALLED “false gods”.

YOU, on the other hand, read these words and have PERSONAL reasons to ASSUME Jehovah is talking about “false gods” – even though it is never stated in scripture that they ARE “false gods”.

I've put those PERSONAL reasons behind me. I've come to read and understand the scriptures just as they were written – without adding in our 21st century understanding of “god”.

Which brings me (AGAIN) to this query to which NOBODY on this site ever responds:

If you DISAGREE with the Webster's definition of “god” that I posted above (a definition that PERFECTLY aligns with all of the scriptures), then PLEASE post for us YOUR OWN personal definition of “god”.

Asana, what is YOUR definition of “god”?

August 31, 2013 at 4:50 pm#356562

mikeboll64

Blocked

Now on to Job. Here is that Webster's definition again:

Any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature.

And here are some excerpts from Job:

1:12
The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

Asana, in WHOSE power was everything Job had?

1:15 the Sabeans attacked and made off with them……..

1:16 The fire of God fell from the heavens and burned up the sheep and the servants………

1:17 The Chaldeans formed three raiding parties and swept down on your camels and made off with them.

1:19 …..a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house.

2:6 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”

2:7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head.

Through all of these things, Job was in the power of Satan. And Satan, by his own power, controlled Sabeans, Chaldeans, fire from heaven (thought by many to refer to lightning), mighty winds, and even the physiology of Job himself.

Do these signs and wonders match perfectly with the Webster's definition of “god” that I posted above? YES or NO?

2 Kings 1:6
Thus saith the LORD, Is it not because there is not a God in Israel, that thou sendest to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron?

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers…….

Here we have Satan being called a god by both Paul, and Jehovah Himself.

So the only real question is:

Who are YOU to tell me that Satan is NOT a god when he matches perfectly the BIBLICAL definition of “god” that I posted above, and is actually CALLED a god (never a “false god”) by both Paul and Jehovah?

Please tell me, because I really want to know.

August 31, 2013 at 6:47 pm#356577

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2013,11:31)

The wooden pole itself was not a god, but the earthly image used to worship a real supernatural being.

Really?

Well where was the supernatural powers of this so-called supernatural being (Asherah) when Elijah destroyed 400 of her “false prophets”? 1 Kings 18:18

Elijah simply laughed at there so-called gods that must have been asleep!

I don't have the time right now but will be back to continue answering your foolish assertions in my other thread later!

August 31, 2013 at 7:05 pm#356583

mikeboll64

Blocked

That's fine, Keith. I will let the scriptures themselves teach you in the other thread – when you have the time.

I'm in no hurry, because these scriptures aren't going anywhere.

September 2, 2013 at 1:40 am#356666

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2013,03:31)

Quote

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 29 2013,09:16)

What I can see here is your argument is if something supernatural occurs it is because of a “god” so any spirit that can do anything you cannot is a god to you?

EXACTLY! And that is because I'VE accepted the BIBLICAL understanding of el/theos/god.

Well, thank you. This is what I have been saying it is polytheistic thought

Quote

Read Webster's definition once again:

Any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature.

Do you understand that THIS is the BIBLICAL definition of “god”?

A biblical definition of God is not the internal exegesis of what the Bible is explaining God to be.

if a person believes this:

capitalized: the supreme or ultimate reality: as

a: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe

This is Monotheism

If a person believes in this below as god:

2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically: one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality

3: a person or thing of supreme value

4: a powerful ruler

It certainly is Polytheistic if not applied to definition 1. So if you do not believe more than one being fits definition 1 all other beings could not qualify

Quote

BUT……………….

So are idols real gods? Of course not. But were they sometimes the earthly REPRESENTATIONS OF real supernatural beings? Absolutely!

The Polytheistic Base is where you keep faltering, just tell me which one of these gods Created the Heavens and Earth?

Quote

The Asherah pole is another example. The wooden pole itself was not a god, but the earthly image used to worship a real supernatural being.

supernatural beings cannot qualify as th Creator of The Heavens and the Earth.

Quote

Asana, the difference between us is this:

I read these words of Jehovah, and have no reason whatsoever to assume He is talking about “false gods”……… because never in any scripture are they CALLED “false gods”.

YOU, on the other hand, read these words and have PERSONAL reasons to ASSUME Jehovah is talking about “false gods” – even though it is never stated in scripture that they ARE “false gods”.

If Jesus says the God he worships is THE ONLY TRUE GOD and GOD HIMSELF says there is NO OTHER god should I pretend not to understand what “No other god” means?

Quote

I've put those PERSONAL reasons behind me. I've come to read and understand the scriptures just as they were written – without adding in our 21st century understanding of “god”.

If you read them as written you clearly see from the BEGINNING tha GOD ALMIGHTY was and is THE ONLY GOD and the journey of humanity has been to learn to stop worshipping all the creations of God and become God Conscious.

Quote

Which brings me (AGAIN) to this query to which NOBODY on this site ever responds:

Asana, what is YOUR definition of “god”?

First question is, was the being created/can the being be destroyed? if yes it is not “God”

Second is the being subject to the rule or will of another? if so it is not “God”

“Say: He is Allah,
The One and Only.
“Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
“He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him.”

So is there any being that you have mentioned that meets that criteria?

September 2, 2013 at 4:46 pm#356698

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 01 2013,19:40)

The Polytheistic Base is where you keep faltering, just tell me which one of these gods Created the Heavens and Earth?

Only Jehovah, who is the God OF gods, created the heavens and the earth.

Which brings us to the crux of the misunderstanding:

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 01 2013,19:40)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

Asana, what is YOUR definition of “god”?

First question is, was the being created/can the being be destroyed? if yes it is not “God”

Second is the being subject to the rule or will of another? if so it is not “God”

Let's see if YOUR definition of “god” is the BIBLICAL definition of “god”…………

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods………

Your definition: Jehovah is a being who was not created and who cannot be destroyed and who is not subject to the will of another and who is HIGHER THAN the OTHER beings who were not created and who cannot be destroyed and who are not subject to the will of another.

DOES YOUR DEFINITION ACTUALLY FIT THE SCRIPTURE ABOVE, ASANA? YES OR NO?

My definition: Jehovah is a being conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature and who is HIGHER THAN the OTHER beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature.

DOES MY DEFINITION ACTUALLY FIT THE SCRIPTURE ABOVE, ASANA? YES OR NO?

Now, we can go through each and every scripture where Jehovah and other gods are mentioned, and MY definition will ALWAYS align perfectly. YOUR definition will NEVER align with the scriptural words, Asana.

In order for “el/theos/god” to mean a being who was not created and who cannot be destroyed and who is not subject to the will of another, it must mean also mean that when “el/theos/god” is used of Molech, Dagon, Ashtoreth, Chemosh, the gods of Egypt, etc, etc, etc.

But we both know that it clearly DOESN'T mean that when used of Molech, Dagon, Ashtoreth, Chemosh, or the gods of Egypt, right?

On the other hand, the Webster's definition I posted fits every single scripture.

Asana, it is the norm today to think that the word “god” refers only to the one being who created all things, and who is higher than all other beings, and who does not follow the will of anyone else. But that is NOT what the words “el” and “theos” meant in scripture.

So I can, according to every scripture, say these words:

My own God Jehovah is the ONLY being conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature, who also created all things, and who is also higher than all the other beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature.

I can say those words and place Jehovah ABOVE all the other gods (even going as far as to emphatically say He is the only TRUE god, because he is so much HIGHER THAN the OTHER gods) – without ever going AGAINST scripture and claiming that He is literally the ONLY being conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature.

And all anyone has to do to learn that Jehovah is not literally the ONLY being conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature in scripture is read the Bible for about 5 minutes.

I await your response to the Job post I made.

September 2, 2013 at 8:17 pm#356716

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 03 2013,03:46)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 01 2013,19:40)

The Polytheistic Base is where you keep faltering, just tell me which one of these gods Created the Heavens and Earth?

Only Jehovah, who is the God OF gods, created the heavens and the earth.

Which brings us to the crux of the misunderstanding:

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 01 2013,19:40)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

Asana, what is YOUR definition of “god”?

First question is, was the being created/can the being be destroyed? if yes it is not “God”

Second is the being subject to the rule or will of another? if so it is not “God”

Let's see if YOUR definition of “god” is the BIBLICAL definition of “god”…………

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods………

DOES YOUR DEFINITION ACTUALLY FIT THE SCRIPTURE ABOVE, ASANA? YES OR NO?

DOES MY DEFINITION ACTUALLY FIT THE SCRIPTURE ABOVE, ASANA? YES OR NO?

But we both know that it clearly DOESN'T mean that when used of Molech, Dagon, Ashtoreth, Chemosh, or the gods of Egypt, right?

On the other hand, the Webster's definition I posted fits every single scripture.

So I can, according to every scripture, say these words:

I await your response to the Job post I made.

I completely understand that you smply are not comprehending what I am saying and you are wrong most people think of God in the way you do. This is why Christians will often say things like “the Islamic God”.

I understand why you say “gods” but you don't understand why I say there ar no gods but “GOD”

so this will stop you in your tracks completely. there are no creator gods but ONE CREATOR GOD. Do you agree or disagree?

Genesis 1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth

Also please explain to me what other beings have special powers over the lives of others without the express permission of THE CREATOR. Satan was given permission and instruction pertaining to Job.

Also yourdefinition is not really accurate if you believ tha Jehovah can render any of these “gods” powerless or destroy them

September 3, 2013 at 1:10 am#356746

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 02 2013,14:17)

so this will stop you in your tracks completely. there are no creator gods but ONE CREATOR GOD. Do you agree or disagree?

I repeat from my last post: Only Jehovah, who is the God OF gods, created the heavens and the earth.

But ask yourself this…………. if “god”, in and of itself, already MEANS “creator” – why do YOU have to distinguish Jehovah from the OTHER gods by pointing out that He is the only “CREATOR god”?

See Asana? THAT is how the scriptures also work. The word “el” doesn't distinguish Jehovah as the “most high”, or the “creator god”, or the “only true god”.

Words like “most high”, “creator” and “only true” must be used of Jehovah for the very reason that “el”, in and of itself, DOESN'T say any of these things.

So YOU have come up with a mental definition of “god” that includes not being created, and not doing the will of anyone else. But those stipulations were NEVER a part of the Hebrew word “el”, or the Greek word “theos”………… or even the English word “god”.

So once you LOSE your own invented stipulations, you'll see that there are indeed MANY “elohim/theos/gods”, and because of this, the writers of scripture used words like “most high”, “creator”, and “only true” to DISTINGUISH Jehovah FROM the other gods.

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 02 2013,14:17)

Also please explain to me what other beings have special powers over the lives of others without the express permission of THE CREATOR.

Absolutely NONE of them. Don't you remember me quoting what Jesus said to Pilate about him having no power at all if not given from above? All these “points” you are making right now are “points” that I've already discussed in earlier posts.

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 02 2013,14:17)

Satan was given permission and instruction pertaining to Job.

Absolutely! Scripturally speaking, the god Satan was given permission by his own God, the God of gods and Most High God Jehovah, to have his way with Job……. up to a point.

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 02 2013,14:17)

Also yourdefinition is not really accurate if you believ tha Jehovah can render any of these “gods” powerless or destroy them

Why? Please explain.

Also, I really would like you to acknowledge that YOUR definition was a complete failure in Deuteronomy 10:17……. and that MY definition worked perfectly.

September 3, 2013 at 1:45 am#356750

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 03 2013,12:10)

Quote

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 02 2013,14:17)

so this will stop you in your tracks completely. there are no creator gods but ONE CREATOR GOD. Do you agree or disagree?

I repeat from my last post: Only Jehovah, who is the God OF gods, created the heavens and the earth.

No, it is your only understanding in Islam there is no such misunderstading ALLAH can only be used in one way annever plural so there is never such confusion. I also believe that this confusion was not present in the beginning. Adam didn't ask “which god” because the very question of “gods” happened with Satan making them believe such a thing.

Quote

See Asana? THAT is how the scriptures also work. The word “el” doesn't distinguish Jehovah as the “most high”, or the “creator god”, or the “only true god”.

Notice the word Jehovah was not even known at all until Moses which was the height of polytheism

Quote

Words like “most high”, “creator” and “only true” must be used of Jehovah for the very reason that “el”, in and of itself, DOESN'T say any of these things.

The distinction is only needed for the polytheistic mind when the mind converts to Monotheistic thought the distinction drops.

Quote

Actually it is the other way around there was ALWAYS ONE GOD the idea of additional gods could not have always been therefore your mind has come up with the mental definition.God CLEARLY says:

Isaiah 45:5
I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

and those who grasp th Monotheistic mind agree:

Deuteronomy 4:39
Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

It's like you can read that and simply discard it and it's only because you cannot grasp it.

Imagine God right in front of you saying:

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

What would you say, “yes there are” ?

Quote

No, that's not wht they were doing they were clarifying that there are no other gods but you don't believe consider that even in the Quran the use ofthe word gods is still used but the understanding that there are no such reality is present alongside the thought:

And We took the Children of Israel across the sea; then they came upon a people intent in devotion to [some] idols of theirs. They said, “O Moses, make for us a god just as they have gods.” He said, “Indeed, you are a people behaving ignorantly.

( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #138)

Say, [O Muhammad], “If there had been with Him [other] gods, as they say, then they [each] would have sought to the Owner of the Throne a way.”

( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #42)

Say, “Invoke those you have claimed [as gods] besides Him, for they do not possess the [ability for] removal of adversity from you or [for its] transfer [to someone else].”

( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #56)

Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah, they both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allah, Lord of the Throne, above what they describe.

( سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #22)

Quote

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 02 2013,14:17)

Also please explain to me what other beings have special powers over the lives of others without the express permission of THE CREATOR.

Then they are not gods, a God does not need permission go read your own definition again

Quote

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 02 2013,14:17)

Satan was given permission and instruction pertaining to Job.

Absolutely! Scripturally speaking, the god Satan was given permission by his own God, the God of gods and Most High God Jehovah, to have his way with Job……. up to a point.

bodhitharta,Sep. wrote:

Also yourdefinition is not really accurate if you believ tha Jehovah can render any of these “gods” powerless or destroy them

Why? Please explain.

Quote

Go to your defi
nition God is Immortal cannot be destroyed

[Quote]Also, I really would like you to acknowledge that YOUR definition was a complete failure in Deuteronomy 10:17……. and that MY definition worked perfectly.

Please note that in Deuteronomy 10:17 the person is speaking to the polytheistic crowd who were already set on worshipping gods so yes in tht context my definition would have to fail because the polytheistic definition itself is a failure, with that in mind and my concession you would then have to conceed that only thedefinition I gave would fit here:

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

So either you believe that God is outright lying here or you accept that the reality of people worshiping things as God does not “make them gods” it only shows “they reference things” as gods.

Polytheism to Monotheism is the Jump your mind has to make otherwise you are in the same boat as colter where the disintegration of the Sovereign right of God to be Worshipped alone becomes tantamount to sin.

p.s. I know what Iam saying is difficult and it took me a while to make the jump as well but once done you will understand many more things much easier not only biblical things all things

September 5, 2013 at 2:05 am#356880

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 02 2013,19:45)

No, it is your only understanding in Islam there is no such misunderstading ALLAH can only be used in one way annever plural so there is never such confusion.

First of all, YOU quoted something from the Quran that had Allah referring to HIMSELF as “WE”, remember?

Secondly, “Allah” isn't the NAME of our creator, but the Arabic word for “god”. It means the same thing as the Hebrew word “el”. The difference is that the “al” at the beginning of “Allah” represents the definite article, so it literally means “THE god”. And “THE god” is not the personal NAME of our creator. His NAME is YHWH.

Thirdly, I don't claim that there is more than one JEHOVAH, Asana. There is indeed only one JEHOVAH spoken of in scripture (although His representatives were sometimes addressed as “YHWH” – even though they weren't really YHWH Himself).

So there is ONE Jehovah, and He is the god OF other gods. He is the MOST HIGH god – which in itself insists that there must be less high gods for Him to be higher than.

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 02 2013,19:45)

Adam didn't ask “which god” because the very question of “gods” happened with Satan making them believe such a thing.

The idea that Adam didn't KNOW about the existence of the other gods who were in Jehovah's heavenly counsel until he and Eve became LIKE those other gods (Gen 3:5 and 3:22) doesn't mean those other gods didn't exist.

Nor does the fact that they are not mentioned until Gen 3:5 prove that Adam didn't know about them.

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 02 2013,19:45)

Notice the word Jehovah was not even known at all until Moses………

That may be correct, depending on which way you understand Exodus 6:3. Many believe it should be translated as “Did I not make myself known to them as YHWH?” instead of “I did not make myself known to them as YHWH.”

And there are good arguments both ways. For one, why would Moses then have to ask the name of who was sending him, if it should have been common knowledge?

But on the other hand, Moses quoted Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and a slew of others as directly calling Him “YHWH”………. long before Moses was told the name.

But let's assume that Moses IS the first human who knew the personal name YHWH. Do you know what the Israel story is all about?

Deuteronomy 32:8 NET ©
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided up humankind, he set the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of the heavenly assembly.

The underlined part is, in Hebrew, “the sons of God”. And here is commentary from NET Bible:

For the MT יִשְׂרָאֵל בְּנֵי (bÿney yisra’el, “sons of Israel”) a Qumran fragment has “sons of God,” while the LXX reads ἀγγέλων θεοῦ (angelwn qeou, “angels of God”), presupposing בְּנֵי אֵל (bÿney ’el) or בְּנֵי אֵלִים (beney ’elim).

“Sons of God” is undoubtedly the original reading; the MT and LXX have each interpreted it differently. MT assumes that the expression “sons of God” refers to Israel (cf. Hos. 1:10), while LXX has assumed that the phrase refers to the angelic heavenly assembly (Pss 29:1; 89:6; cf. as well Ps 82). The phrase is also attested in Ugaritic, where it refers to the high god El’s divine assembly. According to the latter view, which is reflected in the translation, the Lord delegated jurisdiction over the nations to his angelic host (cf. Dan. 10:13-21), while reserving for himself Israel, over whom he rules directly.

Jehovah had appointed other spirit beings, His sons, over the various nations. The Prince of Persia in Daniel represents one of these sons of God – the one who was appointed over the Persian Kingdom.

Psalm 82 speaks about how Jehovah assembled with these other gods in heaven, and rendered judgment against them for screwing their assignments up so badly.

And from Moses on, the whole of scripture is about how Jehovah, the MOST HIGH God, finally had enough and chose one nation out of all the earth to rule directly as their God.

So these other nations had always had their own gods, Asana. That's the way Jehovah Himself had set it up, when he “set the boundaries of the peoples, according to the number of sons of God”.

It was only after these other gods ruled improperly that Jehovah Himself stepped in, and took for Himself a nation of His own.

That's why in Psalm 82, after listing all the things they had done badly, Jehovah says, “I have called you gods, but you will die like men”.

I'll get to the rest of your “points” soon.

September 5, 2013 at 4:49 am#356894

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2013,13:05)