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TO ALL,
The Jehovah's Witnesees and the Christadelphians deny that God appeared to men in the old testament. The “proof text” they offer is a partial quote from John 1:18 which in the KJV says,
“No man has SEEN God at any time.”
The problem with their interpretation is that the word “horao” (to see) in John 1:18 means “to discern mentally” and has nothing to do with physical sight. Please refer to Strong's# 3708. The first definition Strong gives is “to discern clearly physical or mental.”
Now the adversaries insist that John must have meant that no man had ever seen God with his bodily organ called the eye. But this commentary has no contextual basis.
Here is John's statement in its entirety and not just a partial quote:
“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has EXPLAINED Him.”
John's use of the Greek word “exegesis” (explained) defines what he meant by the word “horao.” John clearly meant that no man had DISCERNED God mentally at any time before Christ appeared and explained Him.
John meant that no man had seen God with the mind's eye before Christ came.
This is the whole context of Christ's becoming flesh in John 1. Christ is called the “WORD” because He speaks to the mind. Then He is called the “true LIGHT” because he illuminates the mind.
The adversaries pit scripture against scripture. Jacob wrestled with God and then called the place “Peniel” because “I have seen God face to face.”
KJ
Jack,
Stop trying to re-write the scriptures. Jehovah Himself said that no man can see God's face and live.
JK>………..John also said no man has seen God at (ANY) time, YOU simply can not see SPIRIT brother.
peace and love
Jack,
Jesus is not God Almighty, but His Son. The sooner you accept this scriptural FACT, the better of you'll be.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2012,03:17) Jack, Stop trying to re-write the scriptures. Jehovah Himself said that no man can see God's face and live.
Mike,Actually you're wrong. In Deuteronomy 5 God recounted that the elders and priests of israel came to Mt. Sinai to see God and they said, “
“We have seen this day that God speaks with man and he still lives.”
This is God's account of what the people said. Then God said to Moses, “The people speak what is right.”
I have researched this issue and have found that God was NOT making a statement of fact when he said that no man could see Him and live. He was stating the case as they thought.
God showed Moses his hind parts because Moses thought that he could not see God and live. I can imagine God shaking His head saying to Moses, “Okay, no man can see me and live so I will show you my hind parts.”
Again, the elders and priests went up to see God and God spoke to them face to face. Then they said, “We have seen this day that God speaks to man and he still lives.” Now they're convinced. So God replies saying, “The people are speaking what is right.”
God came to Jacob and Jacob named the place “Peniel” because “I have seen God face to face.”
Your God is unapproachable Mike but mine is not.
Jack
Jack, your scripture is talking about HEARING God, not seeing Him. So I don't know why you posted it.
Jacob wrestled with an angel of Jehovah – one of His vice regents who were often called “God” or “Jehovah”.
Jehovah Himself told Moses, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” (Ex 33:20)
Yet many people saw the face of Jesus, right? And John 1:18 speaks of one who came to explain God, not one who came to explain himself.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 28 2012,13:01) Your God is unapproachable Mike but mine is not.
Jack, my God has a Son that He sent as a sacrificial lamb to die for us. Your God has a multiple personality disorder.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 29 2012,13:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2012,03:17) Jack, Stop trying to re-write the scriptures. Jehovah Himself said that no man can see God's face and live.
Mike,Actually you're wrong. In Deuteronomy 5 God recounted that the elders and priests of israel came to Mt. Sinai to see God and they said, “
“We have seen this day that God speaks with man and he still lives.”
This is God's account of what the people said. Then God said to Moses, “The people speak what is right.”
I have researched this issue and have found that God was NOT making a statement of fact when he said that no man could see Him and live. He was stating the case as they thought.
God showed Moses his hind parts because Moses thought that he could not see God and live. I can imagine God shaking His head saying to Moses, “Okay, no man can see me and live so I will show you my hind parts.”
Again, the elders and priests went up to see God and God spoke to them face to face. Then they said, “We have seen this day that God speaks to man and he still lives.” Now they're convinced. So God replies saying, “The people are speaking what is right.”
God came to Jacob and Jacob named the place “Peniel” because “I have seen God face to face.”
Your God is unapproachable Mike but mine is not.
Jack
KOO J5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said to them, Hear, Israel, the ordinances and judgments, all that I speak in your ears this day, and ye shall learn them, and observe to do them. 2 The Lord your God made a covenant with you in Choreb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with your fathers, but with you: ye are all here alive this day. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face in the mountain out of the midst of the fire. 5 And I stood between the Lord and you at that time to report to you the words of the Lord, (because ye were afraid before the fire, and ye went not up to the mountain) saying, 6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
you are telling untrue stories ,but wen you do not like the truth it is normal you have to invent yours,
so show scriptures chapters and verses,?
?Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2012,06:41) Jack, your scripture is talking about HEARING God, not seeing Him. So I don't know why you posted it. Jacob wrestled with an angel of Jehovah – one of His vice regents who were often called “God” or “Jehovah”.
Jehovah Himself told Moses, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” (Ex 33:20)
Yet many people saw the face of Jesus, right? And John 1:18 speaks of one who came to explain God, not one who came to explain himself.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 28 2012,13:01) Your God is unapproachable Mike but mine is not.
Jack, my God has a Son that He sent as a sacrificial lamb to die for us. Your God has a multiple personality disorder.
You're playing games with words. They went to SEE God and He spoke to them. Verse 4 says that God talked with them “face to face.” Interpret any way you want it don't matter. The expression “face to face” requires that there was a DIRECT ENCOUNTER which means that God did indeed appear to men in the old testament.If God did not meet with Moses face to face, then why did Moses have to put a veil over his face to hide the glory of God?
Mike said:
Quote Jehovah Himself told Moses, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” (Ex 33:20)
the expression “face to face” means no less than a DIRECT ENCOUNTER. God showed Moses His back parts. Was this a DIRECT ENCOUNTER with God or not? If so, then God appeared to Moses in some kind of form.Give it up Mike! Jacob saw God “face to face.” In the least this means that Jacob had a DIRECT ENCOUNTER of some kind with God. He wrestled with God. God took a form so Jacob could have a DIRECT ENCOUNTER with Him. God appeared to Jacob.
Geez man!
Hi Kj:
Jesus meant by the following statement:
“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has EXPLAINED Him
Quote Jhn 14:7 ¶ If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Quote 1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Love in Christ,
MartyTO ALL,
The following CANNOT be refuted but only denied.
The people forgot God, the Rock who fathered them out of Egypt:
“But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked;
You grew fat, you grew thick,
You are obese!
[bThen he forsook God who made him,
And scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation.[/b]
16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods;
With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God,
To gods they did not know,
To new gods, new arrivals
That your fathers did not fear.
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you” Deut. 32:15-18.Christ was the living (spiritual) Rock that went with them:
“For they drank of that spiritual Rock that went with them, and that Rock was the Christ“. 1 Cor. 10:4
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 29 2012,20:30) TO ALL, The following CANNOT be refuted but only denied.
The people forgot God, the Rock who fathered them out of Egypt:
“But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked;
You grew fat, you grew thick,
You are obese!
[bThen he forsook God who made him,
And scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation.[/b]
16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods;
With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God,
To gods they did not know,
To new gods, new arrivals
That your fathers did not fear.
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you” Deut. 32:15-18.Christ was the living (spiritual) Rock that went with them:
“For they drank of that spiritual Rock that went with them, and that Rock was the Christ“. 1 Cor. 10:4
KJ
allHEB 8:5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “SEE,” He says, “THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.”
HEB 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Pierre
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 29 2012,13:30) TO ALL, The following CANNOT be refuted but only denied.
The people forgot God, the Rock who fathered them out of Egypt:
“But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked;
You grew fat, you grew thick,
You are obese!
[bThen he forsook God who made him,
And scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation.[/b]
16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods;
With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God,
To gods they did not know,
To new gods, new arrivals
That your fathers did not fear.
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you” Deut. 32:15-18.Christ was the living (spiritual) Rock that went with them:
“For they drank of that spiritual Rock that went with them, and that Rock was the Christ“. 1 Cor. 10:4
KJ
Hi Jack:Christ means “the anointed one”. Is God who Fathered you “the anointed one”?
The point being made by these scriptures is that the Word of God was spoken to those who He delivered out of Egypt through Moses. The “spiritual rock” that they drank is “the Word of God”. They were given “the ten commandments” through Moses.
Jesus said that the came to fulfill the law, and God has spoken His Word to us in these last days by Son, His Christ or His anointed one.
Quote Hbr 3:16 ¶ For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. Hbr 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hbr 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 28 2012,17:27) You're playing games with words. They went to SEE God and He spoke to them. Verse 4 says that God talked with them “face to face.”
Deuteronomy 4:15
You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire.Enough said?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 28 2012,20:30) 18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you” Deut. 32:15-18.[/color]Christ was the living (spiritual) Rock that went with them:
“For they drank of that spiritual Rock that went with them, and that Rock was the Christ“. 1 Cor. 10:4
God is called “rock”. So is Jesus. So is Peter (whose Jesus-given name actually MEANS “rock”).As for 1 Cor 10, there are two ways we can see it, and neither of them work out well for you, Jack.
1. Paul says the Israelites were baptized into Moses in the wilderness, and Moses was also one of God's many christs. So you don't even know if Paul was referring to Moses as the rock from which the Israelites drank, or if it was Jesus.
2. If it WAS Jesus, then that only proves that Jesus was the ANGEL OF GOD that Jehovah sent before the Israelites.
So Jack, you can argue until you're blue in the face that Jesus was the “rock” from 1 Cor 10:4 if you want to – but it will only prove that Jesus was not God Himself, but the ANGEL that God sent.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2012,21:11) Christ means “the anointed one”. Is God who Fathered you “the anointed one”?
Marty,I ask about this all the time. It seems odd to me that the name of Jack's God would be “Jesus, the anointed one OF God”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2012,00:29) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 28 2012,20:30) 18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you” Deut. 32:15-18.[/color]Christ was the living (spiritual) Rock that went with them:
“For they drank of that spiritual Rock that went with them, and that Rock was the Christ“. 1 Cor. 10:4
God is called “rock”. So is Jesus. So is Peter (whose Jesus-given name actually MEANS “rock”).As for 1 Cor 10, there are two ways we can see it, and neither of them work out well for you, Jack.
1. Paul says the Israelites were baptized into Moses in the wilderness, and Moses was also one of God's many christs. So you don't even know if Paul was referring to Moses as the rock from which the Israelites drank, or if it was Jesus.
2. If it WAS Jesus, then that only proves that Jesus was the ANGEL OF GOD that Jehovah sent before the Israelites.
So Jack, you can argue until you're blue in the face that Jesus was the “rock” from 1 Cor 10:4 if you want to – but it will only prove that Jesus was not God Himself, but the ANGEL that God sent.
Paul said that the “Rock” that went with them was the Christ. Peter did not go with them.The “Rock” that gave birth to them and the “Rock” that went with them was one and the same.
Give it up Mike!
Stephen:
“This Moses, whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge?’—this man God sent as both ruler and redeemer by the hand of the Messenger who appeared to him in the bush. Acts 7:35 ESV
Jude:
Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
Give it up Mike!
Jack
Like I said Jack,
Even if you INSIST that Jesus was the rock in the wilderness, it only proves that Jesus was the ANGEL OF GOD that God sent ahead of the Israelites.
Btw, which verse are you quoting in Jude?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 31 2012,17:46) “This Moses, whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge?’—this man God sent as both ruler and redeemer by the hand of the Messenger who appeared to him in the bush. Acts 7:35 ESV
I see. Since we know that God only has ONE angel, the one in the bush MUST HAVE BEEN the one that went before the Israelites, right?
TO ALL,
The Netbible which Mike trusts:
NET Bible Commentary on Jude 5: ” The reading *Ihsou'” (Ihsous, “Jesus”) is deemed too hard by several scholars, since it involves the notion of Jesus acting in the early history of the nation Israel. However, not only does this reading enjoy strong support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 vg et alii), but the plethora of variants demonstrate that scribes were uncomfortable with it, for they typically exchanged kuvrio” (kurios, “Lord”) or qeov” (qeos, “God”) for *Ihsou'” (though Ì72 has the intriguing reading qeoV” Cristov” [qeos Cristos, “God Christ”] for *Ihsou'”). As difficult as the reading *Ihsou'” is, in light of v. 4 and in light of the progress of revelation (Jude being one of the last books in the NT to be composed), it is wholly appropriate.
KJ
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