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bodhitharta said to TC27:
Quote Christ must offend you as well because he never believed in a trinity. In all his teachings never once did he say anyone or anything else was God except his Father, but I guess many know more about Christ than Christ himself, right? There is a grave and terrible evil that doesn't believe the words of Jesus because of the doctrines of devil and men.
bd,
You cannot know what Jesus said or did not say because the Quran says that the Scriptures were tampered with. You just don't get it.thinker
Bodhitharta said:
Quote Christ must offend you as well because he never believed in a trinity. In all his teachings never once did he say anyone or anything else was God except his Father, but I guess many know more about Christ than Christ himself, right? When I said you offended me it was not because you are not a trinitarian. It was because you said I was worse than an atheist. I am sorry but believing in the Quran over the Bible is one of the most awful things I can think of. Oh and Jesus was a trinitarian. Sorry.
TC27
Everyone,
The word trinity is man-made, yes. However that does not mean that the doctrine behind it is false. Just because you cannot find the word “trinity” in the Bible does not mean that it does not exist.
TC27
Quote (942767 @ June 30 2009,09:44) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ June 29 2009,09:32) Nick, Yes, that verse says that God reconciled the world to himslef in Christ. Yes, I will agree that God was in Christ. However Scripture blatantly says in Titus 2:13 “while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God AND Savior, Jesus Christ.” This verse clearly recognized Christ as being God. Just because God was in Christ, does not mean that Christ isn't God.
TC27
Hi:So, then are there two Gods? Jesus is God in the following sense:
Quote Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, The scripture also states that:
Quote 1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Quote Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Quote 1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Quote Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
We have been over this before. God is called Lord and so is Jesus. Are there two Lords? You have worn out your argument. Can you come up with an original one?thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2009,10:56) Hi CB,
You quote scripture as if it is the ultimate truth yet preach a trinity not taught anywhere in it??Is that consistent?
Hi Nick
Micah 2:7
O thou that art named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of the LORD straitened? are these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly?John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Psalm 68:11
The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.Mathew 4:3-7
And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mark 3:29, 35
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God,…
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,…
1 John 5:11, 20
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: …
Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Quote (Christian Biker @ June 30 2009,07:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2009,10:56) Hi CB,
You quote scripture as if it is the ultimate truth yet preach a trinity not taught anywhere in it??Is that consistent?
Hi Nick
Micah 2:7
O thou that art named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of the LORD straitened? are these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly?John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Psalm 68:11
The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.Mathew 4:3-7
And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mark 3:29, 35
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God,…
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,…
1 John 5:11, 20
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: …
Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
CB,AMEN!
TC27
Quote (thethinker @ June 30 2009,19:19) bodhitharta said to TC27: Quote Christ must offend you as well because he never believed in a trinity. In all his teachings never once did he say anyone or anything else was God except his Father, but I guess many know more about Christ than Christ himself, right? There is a grave and terrible evil that doesn't believe the words of Jesus because of the doctrines of devil and men.
bd,
You cannot know what Jesus said or did not say because the Quran says that the Scriptures were tampered with. You just don't get it.thinker
You are trying to make excuses because you do not want to address what I am saying but the fact is if you do not think the bible has been tampered with then you don't believe your own bible.Also, if you don't believe it was tampered with then whatever I prove within it must be true to you. Trying to discredit me doesn't help your cause it simply shows how weak it is.
All though it was tampered with, God even protected it enough to not even mention the words TRINITY, TRIUNE and other words that would have been almost impossible to discredit if they were allowed to get them in there and yet you think it is the most important thing of all to tell people and God does not even let it get in there once.
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 01 2009,00:31) Bodhitharta said: Quote Christ must offend you as well because he never believed in a trinity. In all his teachings never once did he say anyone or anything else was God except his Father, but I guess many know more about Christ than Christ himself, right? When I said you offended me it was not because you are not a trinitarian. It was because you said I was worse than an atheist. I am sorry but believing in the Quran over the Bible is one of the most awful things I can think of. Oh and Jesus was a trinitarian. Sorry.
TC27
The Quran and the Bible are the words of God it is not a matter of one over the other it is a matter of a cohesive whole. Shouldn't God let us know when others have changed His words or use them to oppress others?Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 01 2009,00:31) Bodhitharta said: Quote Christ must offend you as well because he never believed in a trinity. In all his teachings never once did he say anyone or anything else was God except his Father, but I guess many know more about Christ than Christ himself, right? When I said you offended me it was not because you are not a trinitarian. It was because you said I was worse than an atheist. I am sorry but believing in the Quran over the Bible is one of the most awful things I can think of. Oh and Jesus was a trinitarian. Sorry.
TC27
Hi TC,
Was he?.
Yet he never mentioned such beliefs.
If fact he said he was rather the Son of God.If he never said such things how can you say this or are you just assuming he thought he really was part of a triumvirate and not the Son of God?
Nick,
Here is your problem, you cannot see the fact that Jesus forgave sins as a sign of him being God. Only God had the right to do such things and you know it. So if Jesus had the authority to forgive sins he HAD to be God because only God had that authority.
TC27
Hi TC,
So when Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to his disciples in Jn 20 he was making them God too?Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 01 2009,07:25) Nick, Here is your problem, you cannot see the fact that Jesus forgave sins as a sign of him being God. Only God had the right to do such things and you know it. So if Jesus had the authority to forgive sins he HAD to be God because only God had that authority.
TC27
I would just explain that we all have the ability to forgive sins but that is not really your angle so the best explanation is to simply say God anointed Jesus to act in this manner he did not do it on his own.You do not think that you can forgive sins? Then why does Jesus tell you that you can't be forgiven of your sins unless you forgive?
Matthew 6:14-16 (King James Version)
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Now when you forgive men are you being God?
Jesus was teaching them that you can have forgiveness and love and compassion at any time and not just when you offer a sacrifice at the temple.
Nick,
Nope, but could someone who wasn't God give permission to others to forgive sins?
Also, if you notice in that chapter in verse 22 it says:
“And when he had said this, he breathed into them and said unto them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'”
If Jesus was not God where did he get the Holy Spirit. So are you trying to say that God AND the Holy Spirit were in Jesus? Jesus seems to be pretty possessed by your logic. But since God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one, that verse makes a whole lot more sense.
TC27
Hi TC,
So you acknowledge the weakness of that argument and change tack.
Now giving authority makes you God?God gave Jesus the mission of reconciliation and that was role passed on by Jesus to his disciples and so on.
God is the head of Christ and Christ the head of man….
Nick,
Jesus never needed to be given authority to forgive sins. It was already his. However, the disciples had to be given permission by Jesus in order to do so. Now do you see the difference? Also you did not answer my other point about the Holy Spirit. You keep evading me.
TC27
Hi TC,
Scripture says he was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power.[Acts 10.38]
It says there too that God was with him but you think that verse is untrue?Quote (thethinker @ July 01 2009,02:58) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2009,09:44) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ June 29 2009,09:32) Nick, Yes, that verse says that God reconciled the world to himslef in Christ. Yes, I will agree that God was in Christ. However Scripture blatantly says in Titus 2:13 “while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God AND Savior, Jesus Christ.” This verse clearly recognized Christ as being God. Just because God was in Christ, does not mean that Christ isn't God.
TC27
Hi:So, then are there two Gods? Jesus is God in the following sense:
Quote Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, The scripture also states that:
Quote 1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Quote Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Quote 1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Quote Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
We have been over this before. God is called Lord and so is Jesus. Are there two Lords? You have worn out your argument. Can you come up with an original one?thinker
Hi thethinker:There is “One LORD”. Jesus is Lord. What I have presented is scripture, and this is probably why you don't like it.
There is only “One God”, and there is no such thing as “God in three persons”.
And the severity of teaching the doctrine of “trinity” is that some jews and muslims will not confess Jesus as Lord because they believe that by doing so, they will be violating the commandment that states: “Thou shalt no other Gods besides Me”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ June 30 2009,02:19) Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,04:38) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ June 29 2009,08:59) Hello everyone! I am new to this site, and I have been reading the conversation about whethor or not Christ is God. I will say this. To deny that Christ is God, is to deny Christianity. There are many places in Scripture that specifically show us that Christ and the Father are one. To deny this is to deny Christ's true identity.
Example # 1:
Isaiah 60:16 states: “You will drink the milk of nations and be nursed at royal breasts. Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”
Titus 1:4 states: “To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”
~The key word in these two verses is “Savior.” In the Isaiah verse, God the Almighty is being referred to as Savior. However, Jesus Christ is called Savior in the Titus verse. How then can there be two saviors if there is only one God. This can only mean that Jesus is God because the Bible would otherwise contradict itself. Jesus is God existing in a different person to fulfill a different purpose.
Example # 2:
Genesis 49:24 states: “But his bow remains steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel.”
John 10: 11, 16 states : “I [Jesus] am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.”
~ They key word in these passages is “shepherd.” In the John verse, Jesus clearly states that he is the good shepherd and that there is to be only ONE shepherd. However, we see that God is referred to as the Shepherd in Genesis. Either the Bible is lying when it says that there is to be one shepherd, or Jesus is God.Example #3:
Exodus 3:14 states: “God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM.' This is what you are to say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.' “
John 8:58 states:” 'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' “
~ Here we see the key words being “I AM.” God calls himself by the same name in Genesis, that Jesus calls himself in John. Also, if Jesus was fully man and not God at all, how could he possibly have existed before the time of Abraham? The verse in John clearly states that he existed BEFORE the time of Abraham which can only mean he is God because a man would not live that long, especially since we know the human birth of Jesus took place long after the death of Abraham. Jesus existed outside of the human body in which he came to Earth.
These are just a few examples that I pulled together, and there are MANY more in Scripture that support the true identity of Christ, which is God.
TC27
Hello TC27;So while aknowledging “Christ” you ignor what the name means?
Christ means “anointed.” Jesus was the anointed prophet of God, raised from among his brethren.
Two things trinitarians ignore completely.
God anoints men.
God is not anointed.
Paladin,You say that God only anoints men. Correct. Trinitarians do not deny that Christ was fully man. He was fully God AND fully man. So your point does not change anything.
TC27
He cannot be fully man, who is mortal, and fully God who is immortal. It is a contradiction.He is called the seed of Woman, [Gen 3:15]
seed of Abraham, [Gal 3:16]
seed of David, [Rom 1:3]
he is NOT called seed of God.Saints ARE called seed of God.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the logos [word] of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his [sperma] seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Saints are not God. They are children of God, begotten by the logos of God.
The saints are fully man, and fully seed of God. That doesn't make us God.
To say that Christ is God is to deny that the Father is the only true God; denies God is greater than the son, which Jesus affirms; denies that Jesus was a form of God, which is affirmed by Paul [Phil 2:6]; denies Jesus emptied himself and demands that equality with God Jesus did not think was his by right of plunder [Phil 2:6].
bodhitharta said:
Quote All though it was tampered with, God even protected it enough to not even mention the words TRINITY, TRIUNE and other words that would have been almost impossible to discredit if they were allowed to get them in there and yet you think it is the most important thing of all to tell people and God does not even let it get in there once. bd,
You said that Paul used guile and decit and even bragged about it. Therefore, you cannot appeal to Paul. You say that God protected it enough not to mention the words “trinity” or “triune.” How do you know? If the Scriptures were tampered with as you say then maybe the words “trinity” and “triune” were in the Bible but were removed by biased people. Can't you see that your reasoning is circular? You can't say the Bible was protected from certain words. For if it was tampered with then the words you mention may have been in the Bible and then deleted.You cannot invoke “proof texts” for your beliefs from a document which you say has been tampered with. It's that simple. If the Bible has been tampered with the whole document must be trashed!
thinker
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