Newbie has a question about trinitarianism

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,01:06)

Quote (942767 @ July 08 2009,09:44) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2009,17:00) Quote (942767 @ July 07 2009,13:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2009,10:41) Hi BD, Similarity to the words of scripture in another book give no validity to that book do they? Hi Nick: Obviously, somebody read the bible, and took of theirs and put them together to form a new revelation. Love in Christ, Mart Bibles were not printed at large at that time and literacy was not wide spread especially literacy in diverse languages. Also what would make it so hard for God to send Gabriel down with the Quran for the people at that time? Chritianity was steeped in the trinity doctrine and killing anyone who protested it. Jesus was a prophet and God made sure that there was no way to be confused about that. Jesus said no one knows the time of his return not even him but only The Father. However Jesus was convinced it would be in his generation: Matthew 16:27-28 (King James Version) 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. The fact is everyone of that day is dead and he did not return if you say he is God you would have to say that God was wrong or God lied. If he was simply a man and a prophet then what he said was true “he didn't know” Hi BD: Could you be that you are misunderstanding what Jesus meant by saying that “some would not taste death till they saw him coming in his kingdom. He was raised from the dead, and when he was to ascend to his position at the right hand of God our Father, he said, “all power over heaven and earth has been given unto me…”.  It sounds to me that he was at that time in his kingdom. Also from the book of Hebrews: Quote 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, I wouldn't mind being wrong but the fact is that verse 27 says clearly: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. That of course has not happened, but that does not mean that Jesus was lying because he already said he did not know, however it would certainly exclude him from being God. WJ and thinker will not be able to handle this truth so they most likely will attack me, but I would love to hear the response to this fact. Jesus said in verse 28 regarding verse 27: 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Hi BD

The fact is Marty is right, you have misunderstood Jesus words.

Jesus also said…

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Jn 11:26

The believer who has been born again “has eternal life”!

Now some will still taste the death of their bodies while their Spirits/souls go to be with Jesus, for Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor 5:6, 8)

But that doesn't have to be the rest of the story. When Jesus rose from the dead (he re-entered his body), many rose from their graves also!

The Bible tells us that if all the things that Jesus did were to be written the world could not contain the books.

I believe that some that were with him and believed in him did not die but like Enoch was not for Jesus took them!

So no, it wasn’t that Jesus didn't know, that is your own logic.

If Jesus didn't know then it would be a contradiction to these scriptures…

“All things have been committed to me by my Father“. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” Luke 10:22

The Father loves the Son and “has placed everything in his hands“. John 3:35

For the Father loveth the Son, “and sheweth him all things that himself doeth“: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. John 5:20

“[/b]Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands[/b]“, and that he was come from God, and went to God; John 13:3

“All that belongs to the Father is mine“. That is why I said “the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you“. John 16:15

In light of Phil 2 where Jesus being in very nature God emptied himself and came in the likeness of sinful flesh and being found in fashion as a man he humbled himself even as a child and grew in the grace and knowledge of the Father and eventually received back all that he had left, and the scriptures above means everything that he had shared with the Father before the foundation of the world, and finally received the previous glory that he had shared with the Father from before the beginning.

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,01:06)

The fact is everyone of that day is dead and he did not return if you say he is God you would have to say that God was wrong or God lied.

This is a total misconception of what death is scripturally. Death is simply the absence of the Spirit from the Body which takes place when the body gives out.

James said…

”AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD”, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26

The Bible says that Jesus went to the center of the earth for three days and three nights like Jonah in the belly of the fish.

Jonah was alive, and so was Jesus in Spirit. We are Spirit beings who live in a flesh temple called the Temple of God.

Paul says…

Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building fr
om God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. “Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling”, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 2 Cor 5:1-3

Then Paul says…
Therefore we are always confident and know “THAT AS LONG AS WE ARE AT HOME IN THE BODY WE ARE AWAY FROM THE LORD.2 Cor 5:6

So what does all this mean? It means that the Word that Was with God and was God was Tabernacled among us (John 1:1, 14, 18), and we beheld his glory, and the Word which was the Spirit of Jesus that lived in that human Body in fashion as a man, did not die, but went to the center of the earth (Hades) for three days and three nights.

Now let it be known to anti-trinitarians that the argument that God didn’t die is a fallacy for Jesus body gave up the ghost and his Spirit which is and was Eternal could never die.

All scriptures make sense when you see Jesus for who he really is.

In light of this, this scripture becomes crystal clear…

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.* Be shepherds of the church of God, “which he bought with his own blood“. Acts 20:28

Blessings WJ

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,18:42)

I believe that some that were with him and believed in him did not die but like Enoch was not for Jesus took them!

Interesting concept!!! Very possible, indeed!

Hmmm. Thanks, Keith. I've never thought of this before.

Off to bed, goodnight.
Mandy

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,18:42)

This is a total misconception of what death is scripturally. Death is simply the absence of the Spirit from the Body which takes place when the body gives out. James said… ”AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD”, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26 The Bible says that Jesus went to the center of the earth for three days and three nights like Jonah in the belly of the fish. Jonah was alive, and so was Jesus in Spirit. We are Spirit beings who live in a flesh temple called the Temple of God. Paul says… Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. “Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling”, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 2 Cor 5:1-3 Then Paul says… Therefore we are always confident and know “THAT AS LONG AS WE ARE AT HOME IN THE BODY WE ARE AWAY FROM THE LORD.2 Cor 5:6 So what does all this mean? It means that the Word that Was with God and was God was Tabernacled among us (John 1:1, 14, 18), and we beheld his glory, and the Word which was the Spirit of Jesus that lived in that human Body in fashion as a man, did not die, but went to the center of the earth (Hades) for three days and three nights. Now let it be known to anti-trinitarians that the argument that God didn’t die is a fallacy for Jesus body gave up the ghost and his Spirit which is and was Eternal could never die. All scriptures make sense when you see Jesus for who he really is. Blessings WJ

WJ,

I love you so I must be blunt to really assist you with understanding all this.

You stated “death is simply the absense of the spirit from the body which takes place when the body gives out.” Now that we have “Your” definition lets see if it works, okay?

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death(the absence of the spirit from the body), till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

now 27 says:

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

This has not occured and everyone who would have been standing there would be “absent of the spirit from the body” today, right?

as I said before

You will not be able to handle this truth so you will attack me, but you are going to have to close your eyes and avoid being honest or you are going to have to admit that according to your own definition that I have provided correct information.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,18:42) This is a total misconception of what death is scripturally. Death is simply the absence of the Spirit from the Body which takes place when the body gives out. James said… ”AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD”, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26 The Bible says that Jesus went to the center of the earth for three days and three nights like Jonah in the belly of the fish. Jonah was alive, and so was Jesus in Spirit. We are Spirit beings who live in a flesh temple called the Temple of God. Paul says… Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. “Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling”, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 2 Cor 5:1-3 Then Paul says… Therefore we are always confident and know “THAT AS LONG AS WE ARE AT HOME IN THE BODY WE ARE AWAY FROM THE LORD.2 Cor 5:6 So what does all this mean? It means that the Word that Was with God and was God was Tabernacled among us (John 1:1, 14, 18), and we beheld his glory, and the Word which was the Spirit of Jesus that lived in that human Body in fashion as a man, did not die, but went to the center of the earth (Hades) for three days and three nights. Now let it be known to anti-trinitarians that the argument that God didn’t die is a fallacy for Jesus body gave up the ghost and his Spirit which is and was Eternal could never die. All scriptures make sense when you see Jesus for who he really is. Blessings WJ WJ, I love you so I must be blunt to really assist you with understanding all this. You stated “death is simply the absense of the spirit from the body which takes place when the body gives out.” Now that we have “Your” definition lets see if it works, okay? 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death(the absence of the spirit from the body), till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. now 27 says: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. This has not occured and everyone who would have been standing there would be “absent of the spirit from the body” today, right? as I said before You will not be able to handle this truth so you will attack me, but you are going to have to close your eyes and avoid being honest or you are going to have to admit that according to your own definition that I have provided correct information.

Hi BD

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:59)

This has not occured and everyone who would have been standing there would be “absent of the spirit from the body” today, right?

Does the scripture you quote say “everyone who would have been standing there”? Why do you misquote the scripture?

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:59)

You will not be able to handle this truth so you will attack me, but you are going to have to close your eyes and avoid being honest or you are going to have to admit that according to your own definition that I have provided correct information.

Where have I attacked you? Is disagreeing with you an attack?

I showed you what scriptures say death is…

”AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD”, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26

Do you believe every one that ever lived on this planet experienced a natural death?

If you do then what about Enoch and Elijah?

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
There is another scriptural definition of death.
Let the dead bury the dead
Abraham is yet alive.

Real death is absence of the fountain of eternal life and real life is possession of it.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,19:14)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2009,18:42) This is a total misconception of what death is scripturally. Death is simply the absence of the Spirit from the Body which takes place when the body gives out. James said… ”AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD”, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26 The Bible says that Jesus went to the center of the earth for three days and three nights like Jonah in the belly of the fish. Jonah was alive, and so was Jesus in Spirit. We are Spirit beings who live in a flesh temple called the Temple of God. Paul says… Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. “Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling”, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 2 Cor 5:1-3 Then Paul says… Therefore we are always confident and know “THAT AS LONG AS WE ARE AT HOME IN THE BODY WE ARE AWAY FROM THE LORD.2 Cor 5:6 So what does all this mean? It means that the Word that Was with God and was God was Tabernacled among us (John 1:1, 14, 18), and we beheld his glory, and the Word which was the Spirit of Jesus that lived in that human Body in fashion as a man, did not die, but went to the center of the earth (Hades) for three days and three nights. Now let it be known to anti-trinitarians that the argument that God didn’t die is a fallacy for Jesus body gave up the ghost and his Spirit which is and was Eternal could never die. All scriptures make sense when you see Jesus for who he really is. Blessings WJ WJ, I love you so I must be blunt to really assist you with understanding all this. You stated “death is simply the absense of the spirit from the body which takes place when the body gives out.” Now that we have “Your” definition lets see if it works, okay? 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death(the absence of the spirit from the body), till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. now 27 says: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. This has not occured and everyone who would have been standing there would be “absent of the spirit from the body” today, right? as I said before You will not be able to handle this truth so you will attack me, but you are going to have to close your eyes and avoid being honest or you are going to have to admit that according to your own definition that I have provided correct information. Hi BD Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:59) This has not occured and everyone who would have been standing there would be “absent of the spirit from the body” today, right? Does the scripture you quote say “everyone who would have been standing there”? Why do you misquote the scripture? Quote (bodhitharta @ July 08 2009,02:59) You will not be able to handle this truth so you will attack me, but you are going to have to close your eyes and avoid being honest or you are going to have to admit that according to your own definition that I have provided correct information. Where have I attacked you? Is disagreeing with you an attack? I showed you what scriptures say death is… ”AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD”, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26 Do you believe every one that ever lived on this planet experienced a natural death? If you do then what about Enoch and Elijah? WJ

I didn't say you did attack me, what I said was the only options you have are agreeing that I have provided correct information or attacking me.

Now, I said that there was no one living from that time and that event has not happened, would you agree?

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death(the absence of the spirit from the body), till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

would it be safe to say that everyone from that generation has tasted death?

Matthew 24:33-35 (King James Version)

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled

Would it be fair to say that, that generation has passed? and all those things have not been fulfilled have they?

Matthew 24 (King James Version)
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

has that happened? That generation has long passed many generations ago.

Ecclesiastes 1:3-5 (King James Version)

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

Is this correct information?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,19:55)

Hi BD, There is another scriptural definition of death. Let the dead bury the dead Abraham is yet alive.  Real death is absence of the fountain of eternal life and real life is possession of it.

Yes, but that was not the context of the scriptures I was discussing with WJ.

[KangarooJack]

bodhitharta said:

Quote

Now, I said that there was no one living from that time and that event has not happened, would you agree? 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death(the absence of the spirit from the body), till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. would it be safe to say that everyone from that generation has tasted death? Matthew 24:33-35 (King James Version) 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled Would it be fair to say that, that generation has passed? and all those things have not been fulfilled have they?

bd,
Jesus returned in AD70. That generation did NOT pass away till all was fulfilled like Jesus said.

Let's take up this subject in the Bible Prophecy forum.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Jesus said men should come to him to receive of the Spirit, the fountain of life[jn7]
But you feel he needs correction from your master?

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2009,12:41)

Hi TT, That is not clear scriptural teaching. God sent his Son and anointed him with His Spirit and that Spirit led him.  Do you have any scriptural teaching that says God is three and not one after all? If not why do you risk the wrath of God teaching it?

Nick,

The Bible never said that God was three, it says that He is one. However, trinitarians do not claim that God is three. We claim that he is one God existing in three persons. I do not see how this can become so complicated. One referrs to entity, one entity with three parts.

TC27

[NickHassan]

Hi TCD,
Some say three parts.
But why not just believe Jesus and believe in his God?

Jn14.
Jn20

Trinity is a nonbiblical speculative teaching.
We are to pull down speculations

[TrinitarianCalvinist27]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,13:28)

Hi TCD, Some say three parts. But why not just believe Jesus and believe in his God?   Jn14. Jn20 Trinity is a nonbiblical speculative teaching. We are to pull down speculations

Nick,

EXACTLY!
John chapter 20 tells us in verse 28 that Jesus is God.

Quote

28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

An yes, in this passage Jesus does call the Father his God. However, you forget that at the time when he was man, he was subjected to the Father because in his flesh and blood he was lesser. BUT HE WAS LATER EXALTED. The verses you give are valid only for a certain time. There is a chronology here that you keep forgetting. It is a story. You cannot just pick verses out and pull them out of context.

TC27

[NickHassan]

Hi tC,
A common misconception. God was in him.
When they saw him they saw God too[jn14]

He told MM in jn 20 he was going to his and our God but his words fall on deafened ears.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ July 09 2009,06:37)

bodhitharta said: Quote Now, I said that there was no one living from that time and that event has not happened, would you agree? 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death(the absence of the spirit from the body), till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. would it be safe to say that everyone from that generation has tasted death? Matthew 24:33-35 (King James Version) 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled Would it be fair to say that, that generation has passed? and all those things have not been fulfilled have they? bd, Jesus returned in AD70. That generation did NOT pass away till all was fulfilled like Jesus said. Let's take up this subject in the Bible Prophecy forum. thinker

How could Jesus have returned in 70 AD when none of those signs occured at all don't you think people would have remembered Jesus coming in the clouds with the Holy Angels and everyone getting judged according to their works? Not even WJ will go along with you on that one because it simply isn't true.

The fact is Jesus didn't know that he wouldn't be returning in his generation and he even admitted it.

Thinker if you can prove to me that Jesus returned in 70 AD I will believe in the TRINITY starting right away.

Don't try to use Paul's vision as proof either because Jesus didn't come out of the clouds with holy angels with all the other signs. Please go down this road with me.

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
The generation that was spiritually alive when Jesus was with them is still alive in that eternal Spirit.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,15:23)

Hi TT, The generation that was spiritually alive when Jesus was with them is still alive in that eternal Spirit.

Don't start twisting the scriptures, you have been sticking pretty good to what's written. The fact is the prediction did not occur.

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 (King James Version)

21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Notice Jesus did not say the Father said it would occur in-fact he said no one knows, not the angels and not even the son knows the Hour but the Father only then he made the prediction and no matter how you slice it, it did not occur.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Did you not know some are yet alive to God?

God is not the God of the dead but of the living.
Mt22

Abraham rejoiced to see the dayof Jesus

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,15:52)

Hi BD, Did you not know some are yet alive to God? God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Mt22 Abraham rejoiced to see the dayof Jesus

I agree but that is not what Jesus was talking about he said that, that generation would not pass, which of course it has.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Has it?
Not in the eyes of the God of the Living.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2009,16:05)

Hi BD, Has it? Not in the eyes of the God of the Living.

Nick,

Why are you falling away from the facts of scripture?

[Author]

Posts