Myth of original sin vicarious atonement

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,16:56)

Lev 17 Context is about forbidding eating of animal blood.

Hi Adam,

You are ignoring what verse 11 says (atonement), are you not?

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

I am well aware of that it talks about animal blood for the atonement of human life in the context of Israel. I don't see any human blood for such atonement.

[Baker]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,16:18)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 19 2011,16:11) Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,15:50) They are no proofs for sin atonement at all. Lev 9:7   And Moses said unto Aaron, Go unto the altar, and offer thy sin offering, and thy burnt offering, and make an atonement for thyself, and for the people: and offer the offering of the people, and make an atonement for them; as the LORD commanded.   Lev 16:6 ¶ And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.   Georg Hi brother Georg, I know that is about the atonement for (unintentional) sins. But there was no vicarious atonement for Original (Adamic) sin as Christianity claims and God did not allow human blood for sin atonement at all in the whole of Hebrew Bible. Peace to you Adam

Adam

Hbr 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second (covenant).

Hbr 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (people).

Hbr 10:11 ¶ And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: (OT)

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Christ is the sacrifice, the atonement, for our sins.
Jesus, by lifting Adams sin, and placing it on him self, also lifted the curse of death from us, meaning, we will all live again in a resurrection; it is then, when we will all be taught the truth. No more guessing who is teaching the truth; no more choosing which denomination to belong to.
That IS what the millennium is for, to teach/judge the world.

Georg

[gollamudi]

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 19 2011,17:16)

Hbr 10:11 ¶ And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: (OT)

This is the blunder of the writer of Hebrews stating that animal blood never takes away the sins which God ordained. He made God a liar.

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,17:14)

I am well aware of that it talks about animal blood for the atonement of human life in the context of Israel. I don't see any human blood for such atonement.

Hi Adam,

As long as you don't revert backwards, we are making progress!

1) You have agreed with me that Adam sinned in the “Garden of Eden”.
2) And you have agreed that Leviticus 17:11 refers to vicarious atonement.

I since shown “two” cases of “Shadow Pictures” that point to what Rev.13:15 speaks of.
Which are (and you as of yet still refuse to accept these as having any validity)…

1) The FACT that YHVH killed animals to 'cover' Adams nakedness, which was caused by Adam's rebellion(called sin).

2) And God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son (something YHVH actually did allowing Jesus crucifixion).

3) And Abel slewing a lamb. (something else that closely resembles what Jesus' crucifixion was about)

So the question I ask is: Where did Abel get this idea from?   …You should HAVE TO ANSWER THIS!

T8 started a thread because 'some' refuse to answer questions… Click Here <– Third Post

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

I am sorry brother Ed,
I have not agreed with you on Lev 17:11 being vicarious atonement and I can't agree with you on Isaac sacrifice or Abel's sacrifice as for sin atonement.

[gollamudi]

Here is the Jewish view on Lev 17:11 as well as on sin atonement.
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/response.html

“……Missionaries have conveniently severed this verse from its original context, effectively concealing and distorting its message.
In the immediate context of Leviticus 17:11 we find that the Torah is speaking of the prohibition of eating blood, not the subject of sin and atonement. The Torah discusses blood atonement in this verse only as a byproduct of its central theme. This crucial message is lost when missionaries quote Leviticus 17:11 alone, without the surrounding texts as its proper background. Leviticus 17:11 begins with the conjunctive Hebrew word ki (pronounced kee), meaning “This is because….” Whenever a verse begins with this word, it is explaining what has just been related in the previous verse. The previous verse, Leviticus 17:10, reads,

“And any man from the house of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.”

Leviticus 17:11 then continues this message and explains,

“This is because the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.”

Thus, Leviticus 17:11 explains Leviticus 17:10 by revealing that consuming blood is forbidden because it may only be used in the act of sprinkling of the animal's blood on the altar for an atonement. It is a grievous sin to use it for anything else.5

Leviticus 17:10-11 is therefore declaring two principles about blood: 1) you may not eat it 2) amongst all the various rituals associated with the sin sacrifice, such as the laying of the hands on the animal, slaughtering, collecting, carrying, sprinkling, placing of the animal on the altar, it is only the sprinkling the blood on the altar that brings about the atonement. You therefore may not eat the blood. This verse does not state or imply that one cannot have atonement for sin without a blood sacrifice. Such a message would contradict all of the Jewish scriptures which clearly outline two other methods of atonement more pleasing to God than a sacrifice – heartfelt repentance and charity.

Although the statement “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” is found nowhere in the Jewish scriptures, it does appear in the Christian scriptures. In Hebrews 9:22 the author misquotes Leviticus 17:11 when he states “Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.” Although this quote in Hebrews 9:22 is always cross referenced in a Christian study Bible to Leviticus 17:11, it is actually a stunning misquote of the original text.

Finally, if missionaries want to use Leviticus 17:11 to bolster their position that blood sacrifices are indispensable for procuring an atonement, they must use all of the verse, not just a part of it. Leviticus 17:11 specifically says that the blood of the sacrifice must be placed “upon the altar to make atonement for your souls.” That is to say, Leviticus 17:11 explicitly declares that blood can only effect atonement if it is placed on the altar. Jesus' blood, however, was never placed on the altar. If the church is going to take the “blood” part of the verse literally, they must also take the “altar” part literally as well. Jesus' blood was never sprinkled on the altar, and therefore his death could not provide atonement for anyone.

Moreover, the Torah strictly prohibited the Jewish people from offering human sacrifices under any circumstances. There is not one place throughout the entire corpus of the Jewish scriptures where human sacrifices are condoned. Throughout the Book of Leviticus, only distinct species of animals are permitted for use in blood sacrifices…….”

Please go through the above link for full article.
Adam

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,18:04)

I am sorry brother Ed, I have not agreed with you on Lev 17:11 being vicarious atonement and I can't agree with you on Isaac sacrifice or Abel's sacrifice as for sin atonement.

Hi Adam,

One thing at a time!   …Why do you say Lev 17:11 is not vicarious atonement?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,18:08)

Here is the Jewish view on Lev 17:11 as well as on sin atonement. http://www.outreachjudaism.org/response.html

Hi Adam,

My question is why do you say: 'Lev 17:11 is not vicarious atonement?'   …Not why does someone else says.

                I DON'T CARE WHAT SOMEONE ELSE SAYS!!

What do you say? I can't reason together with them, they are NOT here!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

Please see the article I quoted above for your clarification on why I don't agree on vicarious atonement for sin of Adam (Original sin).

[gollamudi]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 19 2011,18:13)

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,18:08) Here is the Jewish view on Lev 17:11 as well as on sin atonement. http://www.outreachjudaism.org/response.html Hi Adam, My question is why do you say: 'Lev 17:11 is not vicarious atonement?'   …Not why does someone else says.                 I DON'T CARE WHAT SOMEONE ELSE SAYS!! What do you say? I can't reason together with them, they are NOT here! God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

'Vicarious atonement' means divine atonement (as human blood sacrifice) for the sins of all mankind especially for the Original sin of Adam as quoted by the NT writers like Paul and the writer of Hebrews. Lev 17:11 is of offering animal blood for the atonement of soul or life. Therefore I don't see any relationship with what you want to get me believe.

I am sorry
Adam

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,18:17)

Please see the article I quoted above for your clarification on why I don't agree on vicarious atonement for sin of Adam (Original sin).

Hi Adam,

I'll make a deal with you, I will agree to read the article
if you agree to read the free e-book I wrote; deal?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,18:23)

'Vicarious atonement' means divine atonement I am sorry Adam

Hi Adam,

Vicarious atonement does NOT mean that, you are reading into the definition!

Vicarious:

1) performed, exercised, received, or suffered in place of another: vicarious  punishment.

2) taking the place of another person or thing; acting or serving as a substitute.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

Please send me a copy of that e-book you wrote I will go through it and come out with my comments. Please understand the illogic of NT writers on Vicarious atonement which is not grounded on Hebrew scriptures. This is my request.
Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,18:23)

the Original sin of Adam I am sorry Adam

Hi Adam,

Adam's sin was not the original sin.

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 19 2011,18:28)

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,18:23) 'Vicarious atonement' means divine atonement I am sorry Adam Hi Adam, Vicarious atonement does NOT mean that, you are reading into the definition! Vicarious: 1) performed, exercised, received, or suffered in place of another: vicarious  punishment. 2) taking the place of another person or thing; acting or serving as a substitute. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Right I agree but as per Christianity it is divinely commissioned act since Jesus is the second person of Godhead. As per 2 Cor 5:19 as God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ. This is where I see that it is divine atonement than ordinary.

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,18:39)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 19 2011,18:28) Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,18:23) 'Vicarious atonement' means divine atonement I am sorry Adam Hi Adam, Vicarious atonement does NOT mean that, you are reading into the definition! Vicarious: 1) performed, exercised, received, or suffered in place of another: vicarious  punishment. 2) taking the place of another person or thing; acting or serving as a substitute. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Right I agree but as per Christianity it is divinely commissioned act since Jesus is the second person of Godhead. As per 2 Cor 5:19 as God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ. This is where I see that it is divine atonement than ordinary.

Hi Adam,

I agree Jesus' death was “divine vicarious atonement”,
but vicarious atonement in and of itself does not indicate it is divine.

The bible says all the fullness of the Godhead dwelleth in Jesus;
not that he was the second person of the Godhead?

Col.2:9: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 18 2011,16:23)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 18 2011,20:39) Adam, Spirit of righteousness is the driving force of the soul.  Compare it to the spirit of arogance, or rebellion, etc.   Since true righteousness comes from God the spirit of true righteousness also comes from God.   The last I knew Jews teach the same.  I will check though. The spirit of man is no longer righteous as he went in search of many schemes. That last is a paraphrase of a scripture from the Old Testiment.  Do you know which one? Can you please quote verses from O.T to support your views on Spirit of righteousness required for obedience to God's Laws?

It is my hope that you will learn to test the spirit of what you hear for yourself.  Here are three scriptures from Ezekiel that speak off the spirit of righteousness.  

Ezekiel 11(NIV)

19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. 20 Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 18(NIV)

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Ezekiel 36(NIV)

24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws

The scripture I speak of in my previous post to you is from one of the books credited to King Solomon.  Does that help find it?

A contract sealed with blood does require blood to seal it.  

[kerwin]

George,

I have not read of anywhere that states that man was not born with spirit but only with the ability to develop spirit.  I also do not know of anywhere where Scripture states man was born with spirit, even broadly speaking as I was doing.    What I have read is that one forfeits their soul if they do not believe God.  This is why I believe the soul is the essential human being who starts to exist as soon as their soul has life.

Matthew 16:26(NIV)

What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 19 2011,18:08)

Here is the Jewish view on Lev 17:11 as well as on sin atonement. Finally, if missionaries want to use Leviticus 17:11 to bolster their position that blood sacrifices are indispensable for procuring an atonement, they must use all of the verse, not just a part of it.  Leviticus 17:11 specifically says that the blood of the sacrifice must be placed “upon the altar to make atonement for your souls.”  That is to say, Leviticus 17:11 explicitly declares that blood can only effect atonement if it is placed on the altar. Jesus' blood, however, was never placed on the altar. If the church is going to take the “blood” part of the verse literally, they must also take the “altar” part literally as well.  Jesus' blood was never sprinkled on the altar, and therefore his death could not provide atonement for anyone. Adam

Hi Adam,

Lev.17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar
to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Please watch the time-lines I have specified. In this one watch 3:00 – 5:45.

In this one watch 0:00 – 5:00.

In This one watch the whole video; OK?

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

[Author]

Posts