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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 31 2009,04:24) Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 30 2009,12:09) How about this, Jesus and YHWH are equal God's above creation. (Father giving everything to Jesus makes him an equal owner).
But God is greater than Jesus…we know this because Jesus doesn't already posses anything, The Father gives things to him.
So to creation, Jesus and YHWH are equal God's (title).
But only The Father is YHWH. With Jesus being his Son.
It doesn't get any simpler than this.
RRemember you are speaking after Jesus incarnation.
Remember Phil 2, he made himself nothing.
He was in very nature God, so he already had every thing, but he left it all!
Now the Father had given all things back to him including the Glory he shared before the world was. John 17:5
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, “though he was rich, yet for your sakes “he became poor“, that ye through his poverty might be rich. 2 Cor 8:9
When was Jesus rich?
John 1:1, Phil 2:6.
When did he become poor?
John 1:14, 18 and Phil 2:6-8
The Father is greater than Jesus because “Jesus chose” the role of being the servant and coming in the likeness of sinful flesh.
God was manifest in the flesh! John 1:1, 14
You need to reconsider, read the following link on John 1:1 and about Jesus being YHWH…Click here and Here
WJ
First off, i'm glad WJ you finally addressed me directly…I wish TT would do so to.Second of, In honestly I will not read those past links…they are too long, and are debating something I fully already understand…I just happen to take t8's stance.
Plus this debate/reconciliation is between you and I, so lets discuss this with OUR thoughts and feelings.
———————————————————If you read that verse in phil 2.
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
That alone shows opposition between Jesus and God.
who being on the form of god thought it not robbery to be equal with God….
Why would it even be a question if Jesus was God. But the fact Paul had to state Jesus' thought, that his stature and deity wouldn't be offensive to YHWH…shows a polarity in their being.
Jesus is unto the likes of YHWH in ability and capability. But he is not YHWH…so being in the form of God and not thinking it be robbery to be in that glory is fine for Jesus.
Why?
Because he is The Son of YHWH given ALL things.
So like i've cleary stated…he is God (title)of the Universe and all things…but he is not YHWH himself.
Also the chapter was written to encourage clergymen of the church to be humble and not boast because of their position…(warning them to not be like the wicked pharisees)….
So the POINT of the chapter was saying…even tho Jesus was great and powerful unto the Glory of The Father….he humbled himself to that of a slave/servent….so you who aren't no where as great as Jesus, should also humble yourself if you are to do God's work.
Everything else you said, I agree with…I've always said they share the same glory…because Jesus is YHWH's literal reflection IN creation….we can't possible know YHWH in this world…he cannot subjegate himself into his creation…he's too infinite.
So he begot Jesus who…everything YHWH is…is in Jesus…and made him into a Man.
So Jesus is God in flesh…in the sense that he is his reflected image unto creation….but he is not The One True Invisible Infinite God that is YHWH (The Father). And because of this…Jesus is not God (YHWH) but he is also God (title) of all things.
Amen.
Amen.Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 31 2009,04:09) How about this, Jesus and YHWH are equal God's above creation. (Father giving everything to Jesus makes him an equal owner).
But God is greater than Jesus…we know this because Jesus doesn't already posses anything, The Father gives things to him.
So to creation, Jesus and YHWH are equal God's (title).
But only The Father is YHWH. With Jesus being his Son.
It doesn't get any simpler than this.
Jesus and God cannot be equal in any way it seems you are going backwards, so much for enlightenment. Giving authority to someone does not make them an equal owner at all it simply gives them authority.If I give all authority to someone to manage my business it is still my business but somehow you have imangined that I give up ownership when I give authority.
You are starting to backtrack on what you've been taught by God, Why is that?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 31 2009,04:24) Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 30 2009,12:09) How about this, Jesus and YHWH are equal God's above creation. (Father giving everything to Jesus makes him an equal owner).
But God is greater than Jesus…we know this because Jesus doesn't already posses anything, The Father gives things to him.
So to creation, Jesus and YHWH are equal God's (title).
But only The Father is YHWH. With Jesus being his Son.
It doesn't get any simpler than this.
RRemember you are speaking after Jesus incarnation.
Remember Phil 2, he made himself nothing.
He was in very nature God, so he already had every thing, but he left it all!
Now the Father had given all things back to him including the Glory he shared before the world was. John 17:5
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, “though he was rich, yet for your sakes “he became poor“, that ye through his poverty might be rich. 2 Cor 8:9
When was Jesus rich?
John 1:1, Phil 2:6.
When did he become poor?
John 1:14, 18 and Phil 2:6-8
The Father is greater than Jesus because “Jesus chose” the role of being the servant and coming in the likeness of sinful flesh.
God was manifest in the flesh! John 1:1, 14
You need to reconsider, read the following link on John 1:1 and about Jesus being YHWH…Click here and Here
WJ
Manifest in the flesh does not mean God Himself was made flesh it simply means the evidence of God was made known in the flesh.Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 31 2009,04:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 31 2009,04:24) Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 30 2009,12:09) How about this, Jesus and YHWH are equal God's above creation. (Father giving everything to Jesus makes him an equal owner).
But God is greater than Jesus…we know this because Jesus doesn't already posses anything, The Father gives things to him.
So to creation, Jesus and YHWH are equal God's (title).
But only The Father is YHWH. With Jesus being his Son.
It doesn't get any simpler than this.
RRemember you are speaking after Jesus incarnation.
Remember Phil 2, he made himself nothing.
He was in very nature God, so he already had every thing, but he left it all!
Now the Father had given all things back to him including the Glory he shared before the world was. John 17:5
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, “though he was rich, yet for your sakes “he became poor“, that ye through his poverty might be rich. 2 Cor 8:9
When was Jesus rich?
John 1:1, Phil 2:6.
When did he become poor?
John 1:14, 18 and Phil 2:6-8
The Father is greater than Jesus because “Jesus chose” the role of being the servant and coming in the likeness of sinful flesh.
God was manifest in the flesh! John 1:1, 14
You need to reconsider, read the following link on John 1:1 and about Jesus being YHWH…Click here and Here
WJ
First off, i'm glad WJ you finally addressed me directly…I wish TT would do so to.Second of, In honestly I will not read those past links…they are too long, and are debating something I fully already understand…I just happen to take t8's stance.
Plus this debate/reconciliation is between you and I, so lets discuss this with OUR thoughts and feelings.
———————————————————If you read that verse in phil 2.
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
That alone shows opposition between Jesus and God.
who being on the form of god thought it not robbery to be equal with God….
Why would it even be a question if Jesus was God. But the fact Paul had to state Jesus' thought, that his stature and deity wouldn't be offensive to YHWH…shows a polarity in their being.
Jesus is unto the likes of YHWH in ability and capability. But he is not YHWH…so being in the form of God and not thinking it be robbery to be in that glory is fine for Jesus.
Why?
Because he is The Son of YHWH given ALL things.
So like i've cleary stated…he is God (title)of the Universe and all things…but he is not YHWH himself.
Also the chapter was written to encourage clergymen of the church to be humble and not boast because of their position…(warning them to not be like the wicked pharisees)….
So the POINT of the chapter was saying…even tho Jesus was great and powerful unto the Glory of The Father….he humbled himself to that of a slave/servent….so you who aren't no where as great as Jesus, should also humble yourself if you are to do God's work.
Everything else you said, I agree with…I've always said they share the same glory…because Jesus is YHWH's literal reflection IN creation….we can't possible know YHWH in this world…he cannot subjegate himself into his creation…he's too infinite.
So he begot Jesus who…everything YHWH is…is in Jesus…and made him into a Man.
So Jesus is God in flesh…in the sense that he is his reflected image unto creation….but he is not The One True Invisible Infinite God that is YHWH (The Father). And because of this…Jesus is not God (YHWH) but he is also God (title) of all things.
Amen.
Amen.
The problem here is you keep thinking of the trinity. You still say Father and Son and hence you keep making the same error when in fact you should be using the terms God and Christ because that is the actual reality. You keep calling God a son so therefor you are still accepting the trinity God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit.The Fact is there is God and Christ is not God he is anointed by God to be Christ, so he is Christ over all things and not God.
No you're wrong…
I can call them Father and Son if I like. That's what Jesus was referred to and that is written in the bible many times.
So my calling YHWH The Father and Jesus The Son does not mean I believe Jesus is God (YHWH).
The Christ is his son because he is annointed to be God in flesh. That is to mean, everything The Father “is” is reflected unto creation in the form of Christ.
It doesn't make christ God but it does make him more perfect than anything in creation.
I really don't know where this argument is leading to, dunno what I need to prove to you…i've said I no longer believe Jesus is God…but you argue with me telling me that I still believe it…
So my convo ends with you…dunno what I am wasting my time arguing with a muslim anyway…this part of the forums is the believer circle…in wich you are not.
Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 01 2009,07:33) No you're wrong… I can call them Father and Son if I like. That's what Jesus was referred to and that is written in the bible many times.
So my calling YHWH The Father and Jesus The Son does not mean I believe Jesus is God (YHWH).
The Christ is his son because he is annointed to be God in flesh. That is to mean, everything The Father “is” is reflected unto creation in the form of Christ.
It doesn't make christ God but it does make him more perfect than anything in creation.
I really don't know where this argument is leading to, dunno what I need to prove to you…i've said I no longer believe Jesus is God…but you argue with me telling me that I still believe it…
So my convo ends with you…dunno what I am wasting my time arguing with a muslim anyway…this part of the forums is the believer circle…in wich you are not.
How is a muslim not a believer unless you believe that Jesus is God?You see you have not really changed unless you believe as a muslim that Jesus is the messiah and is not God and that God is sovereign.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 03 2009,08:18) Hi BD,
A real believer is not a person who wears a label.
But only Jesus is the door to God.
So, If Jesus is the only way to God how did those before Jesus get to God when it was clear that they did get to God before Jesus?The reason is Jesus was referring to those he was assigned to.
Otherwise all would always mean all in the bible which it does not. Otherwise Jesus would have fallen short of the glory of God and he did not.
Hi BD,
“All who came before were thieves and robbers”Now Jesus is the door for all to the kingdom and anyone trying to climb in another way is also a thief and a robber.[Jn10]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 03 2009,09:04) Hi BD,
“All who came before were thieves and robbers”Now Jesus is the door for all to the kingdom and anyone trying to climb in another way is also a thief and a robber.[Jn10]
Do you really believe Jesus was calling Elijah and Moses thieves and robbers? If you believe that you are sadly misguided.Numbers 12:6-8 (Young's Literal Translation)
6And He saith, `Hear, I pray you, My words: If your prophet is of Jehovah — in an appearance unto him I make Myself known; in a dream I speak with him;
7not so My servant Moses; in all My house he [is] stedfast;
8mouth unto mouth I speak with him, and [by] an appearance, and not in riddles; and the form of Jehovah he beholdeth attentively; and wherefore have ye not been afraid to speak against My servant — against Moses?'
Hi Nick,
Read this about the thieves and robbers in John 10 from Matthew Henry's commentary. The thieves and robbers are not what you think:Quote John 10:1-18 [1.] Christ is the door of the shepherds, so that none who come not in by him are to be accounted pastors, but (according to the rule laid down, v. 1) thieves and robbers (though they pretended to be shepherds); but the sheep did not hear them. This refers to all those that had the character of shepherds in Israel, whether magistrates or ministers, that exercised their office without any regard to the Messiah, or any other expectations of him than what were suggested by their own carnal interest. Observe, First, The character given of them: they are thieves and robbers (v. 8); all that went before him, not in time, many of them were faithful shepherds, but all that anticipated his commission, and went before he sent them (Jer 23:21), that assumed a precedency and superiority above him, as the antichrist is said to exalt himself, 2 Thess 2:4. “The scribes, and Pharisees, and chief priests, all, even as many as have come before me, that have endeavoured to forestal my interest, and to prevent my gaining any room in the minds of people, by prepossessing them with prejudices against me, they are thieves and robbers, and steal those hearts which they have no title to, defrauding the right owner of his property.” They condemned our Saviour as a thief and a robber, because he did not come in by them as the door, nor take out a license from them; but he shows that they ought to have received their commission from him, to have been admitted by him, and to have come after him, and because they did not, but stepped before him, they were thieves and robbers. They would not come in as his disciples, and therefore were condemned as usurpers, and their pretended commissions vacated and superseded. Note, Rivals with Christ are robbers of his church, however they pretend to be shepherds, nay, shepherds of shepherds. Secondly, The care taken to preserve the sheep from them: But the sheep did not hear them. Those that had a true savour of piety, that were spiritual and heavenly, and sincerely devoted to God and godliness, could by no means approve of the traditions of the elders, nor relish their formalities. Christ's disciples, without any particular instructions from their Master, made no conscience of eating with unwashen hands, or plucking the ears of corn on the sabbath day; for nothing is more opposite to true Christianity than Pharisaism is, nor any thing more disrelishing to a soul truly devout than their hypocritical devotions.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, PC Study Bible Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All Rights reserved.)LU
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 03 2009,09:01) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 03 2009,08:18) Hi BD,
A real believer is not a person who wears a label.
But only Jesus is the door to God.
So, If Jesus is the only way to God how did those before Jesus get to God when it was clear that they did get to God before Jesus?The reason is Jesus was referring to those he was assigned to.
Otherwise all would always mean all in the bible which it does not. Otherwise Jesus would have fallen short of the glory of God and he did not.
They didn't…That is clear in the bible.
If anything they went to abraham's bosom, which is a place in hell where you are conforted…But by no means was it heaven or God's Kingdom.But yes after Jesus ressurected he took everyone in Abraham's Bosom…
As we look back in belief of the already came messiah….those of the past would of needed to look forward of the coming messiah…
Remember he was prophesied about even unto Adam and Eve right after they sinnned.
Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 04 2009,03:17) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 03 2009,09:01) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 03 2009,08:18) Hi BD,
A real believer is not a person who wears a label.
But only Jesus is the door to God.
So, If Jesus is the only way to God how did those before Jesus get to God when it was clear that they did get to God before Jesus?The reason is Jesus was referring to those he was assigned to.
Otherwise all would always mean all in the bible which it does not. Otherwise Jesus would have fallen short of the glory of God and he did not.
They didn't…That is clear in the bible.
If anything they went to abraham's bosom, which is a place in hell where you are conforted…But by no means was it heaven or God's Kingdom.But yes after Jesus ressurected he took everyone in Abraham's Bosom…
As we look back in belief of the already came messiah….those of the past would of needed to look forward of the coming messiah…
Remember he was prophesied about even unto Adam and Eve right after they sinnned.
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard on this forum: Abraham the friend of God was in Hell until Christ came? That is pure misunderstanding of the highest magnitude.Can you show me a scripture that places Abraham in hell? You are still blinded worshiping Jesus as God otherwise you would in no ways say something so unGodly.
and I say to you, that many from east and west shall come and recline (at meat) with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the reign of the heavens,
Matthew 8:10-12I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not a God of dead men, but of living.'
Matthew 22:31-33Luke 13:27-29 (Young's Literal Translation)
27and he shall say, I say to you, I have not known you whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of the unrighteousness.
28`There shall be there the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth, when ye may see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the reign of God, and yourselves being cast out without;
29and they shall come from east and west, and from north and south, and shall recline in the reign of God,
Luke 16: (Young's Literal Translation)
29`Abraham saith to him, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them;
Hi RM,
Hades is the waiting place of the unsaved and the bosom of Abraham is the waiting place of those yet living in the sight of God after physical death. The name Abraham's bosom reminds us it is obedient faith that saves and the life they yet live by is that given by God's eternal Spirit.Both are described by Jesus in lk 16 and both are thrown in the lake of fire when their usefulness comes to an end at the judgement.[Rev20]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 04 2009,08:37) Hi RM,
Hades is the waiting place of the unsaved and the bosom of Abraham is the waiting place of those yet living in the sight of God after physical death. The name Abraham's bosom reminds us it is obedient faith that saves and the life they yet live by is that given by God's eternal Spirit.Both are described by Jesus in lk 16 and both are thrown in the lake of fire when their usefulness comes to an end at the judgement.[Rev20]
Abraham is in the presence of the LIVING GOD and it is slander to suggest anything else.If abraham was dead you could say he was living somewhere else but Jesus said Abraham was alive long before Jesus was born or Crucified(according to the scriptures)
Hi BD,
Was Jesus wrong when he quoted the words of Abraham from his place oif waiting?I am sure they are in relationship with God and with the ones Jesus met with on the mountain and spoken of as to be sitting at the wedding feast table. God's Spirit is faithful and never forsakes those God has so blessed.
Hi BD,
Was Jesus wrong when he quoted the words of Abraham from his place of waiting in lk16?I am sure the men of old are in relationship with God including the ones Jesus met with on the mountain and who are spoken of as to be sitting at the wedding feast table. God's Spirit is faithful and never forsakes those God has so blessed.
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