My eye has been opened

[NickHassan]

Hi RM,
Does virgin birth mean Jesus was different from other men?
Why?
How?

Was he a superman from conception?
John was prophesied too so how different was he except in inspiration?
Jesus gave the power to forgive sin to his brothers in Jn 20 so how did that change them?

Was he so different that you cannot follow him?

[RokkaMan]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 14 2009,07:10)

Hi RM, Does virgin birth mean Jesus was different from other men? Why? How? Was he a superman from conception? John was prophesied too so how different was he except in inspiration? Jesus gave the power to forgive sin to his brothers in Jn 20 so how did that change them? Was he so different that you cannot follow him?

Who said I cannot follow him?
If YHWH is our Father do we not strive to be like our Fathers?

Yes Virgin birth means jesus was different from other men…if you have a different skin color than I do…you are different in that respect.

Just as Jesus was different in all his respects…but in his light, his situations were of God, Holy and Righteous.

Does that mean I have to be born of a virgin to be righteous like christ???

YES

But our way is not the way of a physical birth, it is of a spiritual rebirth…to relinquish the material birth and assume a Holy one.

To forgive sins like Jesus? No, not before GOD…but before myself, ABSOLUTELY….

If my brother offends me, I will forgive him, just like Jesus will forgive me for sinning against God.

Water to wine, curing disease, making blind men see….

Absolutely…be like Jesus…did not the apostles do the same? Yet they were ordinary men.

I pray that my faith climbs high enough to perform these miracles.

There are christian men today who have risen people who have been dead for 3 days…Just like Jesus.

So just because he had supernatural abilities does not mean we are not to strive to be like him…his way is god's way…god's way is to be our way.
Amen

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 13 2009,15:06)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 14 2009,06:54) Hi RM, We too can have God in us expressing His nature and abilities[eph3.19]by His Spirit. But we would be like Jesus, ordinary men made extraordinary by God's anointing and eternally enjoining Spirit. Virgin birth is not ordinary. Jesus Christ is the most influential man to ever exist and his numbers grow as time passes. Jesus is the only person in the bible that by name alone casted out demons. Everyone else had to perform rituals or use Jesus' name. I'd like to believe he is of God and Man. He was never ordinary…Ordinary men are not prophesied about thousands of years priory…they do not have virgin birth's…they are not sought out to be killed by kings…they are not sinless…they are not called God's only begotten Sons….they are not used as the penalty for Sin, which grants eternal life in the presence of God…they are not given the power to destroy death…they are not given the power to forgive sins…. My friend, Jesus was not an ordinary man.

RM

Good points!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi RM,
If you want to be made like Christ then you do not need to seek virgin birth or any natural rebirth as Jesus told Nicodemus but to be reborn from above by the Spirit of God thus following him.

[RokkaMan]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 14 2009,07:34)

Hi RMN, If you want to be made like Christ then you do not need to seek virgin birth or any natural rebirth as Jesus told Nicodemus but to be reborn from above by the Spirit of God thus following him.

Isn't that what I just said? lol, you're not even reading my posts anymore…because half the time, we are in agreement, yet you post something to argue the same idea we're in agreement with.

[NickHassan]

Hi RM,
We are to continue the work of reconciliating men with God.
Their sins are forgiven in repentant water baptism.
What we forgive on earth is forgiven in heaven.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 14 2009,07:10)

Hi RM, Does virgin birth mean Jesus was different from other men? Why? How? Was he a superman from conception? John was prophesied too so how different was he except in inspiration? Jesus gave the power to forgive sin to his brothers in Jn 20 so how did that change them? Was he so different that you cannot follow him?

Nick's questions reflect that he does not have a true and saving knowlege of Christ.

thinker

[Proclaimer]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 14 2009,03:13)

The word was with God, was God, and was Made flesh. The glory was with God, was God, and was made flesh. Jesus is The Glory of God ——————————————————- There are three that bear witness in heaven, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit and these three are one. There are three that bear witness in heaven, The Father, his Glory, and his Wisdom…and these three are one. Trinitarian when you understand it from a human perspective…but understanding that The Glory is not God himself, and the wisdom is not God himself…should help you understand Jesus and The Holy Spirit's position. That these two are PART of God but do not MAKE UP GOD. Yes Jesus pre-existed, this isn't a trinitarian view…this is a christian view…and it is established in The Bible. Creation was made through and by Jesus' Hand which as authored and issued by The Father…They both are and should be credited with creation. Anti-trinitarians you should esteem Jesus and The Holy Spirit as you do The Father, for they are one in in purpose and being. Trinitarians you should not take trinitarianism as a stance that Jesus is God himself in a human identity…Jesus is God's glory. And is a part of God. So when Jesus died on the cross, it was not God himself who died…but his glory…which the world was fashioned from. So it is equally as important and devastating that his Glory died on The Cross for the worlds were made from this Glory. Amen.

Hi Rokkaman.

Good to see you making progress.

The Father is certainly the true God.
Jesus is the image of the true God.
We are made in God's image and can partkae of divine nature.
Jesus calls us brothers. We will be like him. When we receive our new body, we will be complete. A completed work in Christ Jesus.

I have to point his one out however.
“There are three that bear witness in heaven, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit and these three are one”

This one is not scripture. It was an added in verse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

Blessings.

[Lightenup]

Rokkaman,
It is great to read about your new understanding and I would like to discuss this more with you when I have the time.

Blessings,
Kathi

[bodhitharta]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 14 2009,03:02)

Today a remarkable phenomenon has hit my understanding, which came through divine revelation. I asked God to show me and he did in a remarkable way. Is Jesus God? The answer is no, he is a reflection of God. Yet as the Sun shines in the sky, we experience it's rays. So as if God is The Sun, Jesus is his Rays. (Please this is not a literal interpretation, it is a parable.) And since Jesus is his rays, Jesus too can be worshipped in the same glory as The Father. For Jesus IS the glory of The Father like the Sun's Rays is the Glory of The Sun. So is the trinity true? It would be foolish for man to understand God's being. God is beyond a trinity. He is everything…the only thing he is not, is sin….Because sin by definition is the opposite of God. But without God, sin could not exist…for it is his opposite. The Holy Spirit is God's wisdom and intellect…it is a part of him. So when you worship through The Father, Son and Spirit…what you are praising in…is God, his glory, and his wisdom. Jesus is God's literal Son, and has been made to be our our kin. So we are now related to God The Father because we share a common relation….Jesus. He is God to all things, but not the supreme God himself…Although he is a part of that supremecy, he is not entirely supreme himself…Only The Father is. Amen.

May God continue to bless you!

[Lightenup]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 13 2009,11:02)

Today a remarkable phenomenon has hit my understanding, which came through divine revelation. I asked God to show me and he did in a remarkable way. Is Jesus God? The answer is no, he is a reflection of God. Yet as the Sun shines in the sky, we experience it's rays. So as if God is The Sun, Jesus is his Rays. (Please this is not a literal interpretation, it is a parable.) And since Jesus is his rays, Jesus too can be worshipped in the same glory as The Father. For Jesus IS the glory of The Father like the Sun's Rays is the Glory of The Sun. So is the trinity true? It would be foolish for man to understand God's being. God is beyond a trinity. He is everything…the only thing he is not, is sin….Because sin by definition is the opposite of God. But without God, sin could not exist…for it is his opposite. The Holy Spirit is God's wisdom and intellect…it is a part of him. So when you worship through The Father, Son and Spirit…what you are praising in…is God, his glory, and his wisdom. Jesus is God's literal Son, and has been made to be our our kin. So we are now related to God The Father because we share a common relation….Jesus. He is God to all things, but not the supreme God himself…Although he is a part of that supremecy, he is not entirely supreme himself…Only The Father is. Amen.

Rokkaman,
So God showed you something in a “remarkable way?” Can you share with us how He showed you and exactly what He showed you?

Much appreciated,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

For Rokkaman

[RokkaMan]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 18 2009,13:33)

Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 13 2009,11:02) Today a remarkable phenomenon has hit my understanding, which came through divine revelation. I asked God to show me and he did in a remarkable way. Is Jesus God? The answer is no, he is a reflection of God. Yet as the Sun shines in the sky, we experience it's rays. So as if God is The Sun, Jesus is his Rays. (Please this is not a literal interpretation, it is a parable.) And since Jesus is his rays, Jesus too can be worshipped in the same glory as The Father. For Jesus IS the glory of The Father like the Sun's Rays is the Glory of The Sun. So is the trinity true? It would be foolish for man to understand God's being. God is beyond a trinity. He is everything…the only thing he is not, is sin….Because sin by definition is the opposite of God. But without God, sin could not exist…for it is his opposite. The Holy Spirit is God's wisdom and intellect…it is a part of him. So when you worship through The Father, Son and Spirit…what you are praising in…is God, his glory, and his wisdom. Jesus is God's literal Son, and has been made to be our our kin. So we are now related to God The Father because we share a common relation….Jesus. He is God to all things, but not the supreme God himself…Although he is a part of that supremecy, he is not entirely supreme himself…Only The Father is. Amen. Rokkaman, So God showed you something in a “remarkable way?”  Can you share with us how He showed you and exactly what He showed you? Much appreciated, Kathi

Absolutely, do you ever go through school not understanding a certain concept, then one day your teach explains it a little different and then the light bulb clicks on?

That was my remarkable way.

After the light bulb clicked on, I immediately felt that peace in the center of my gut, that I felt when I first got saved…I pulled out a bible and began reading a bunch of the “Jesus Identity” scriptures to see if they would read in a different light.

Every single piece of scripture made perfect sense.

I mean trinitarianism made perfect sense when I believed it, but kinda felt wrong in the sense that it painted God out to be 3 beings. If he was one being then trinitarianism wouldn't need to exist…we would simply just say…God came down as a man and now lives on in everyone of us. There would be no need for a trinity doctrine if the doctrine was true in itself (no it's not a paradox, it's a flat out contradiction.)

And for God to be sitting with himself at his own right hand, would be pure polytheism…If he is one being it's ok to seperate himself on earth, but in heaven it would not be necissary.

Also Jesus' subjegation to The Father also reveals an inequality…if they were equal they would have equal titles…One wouldn't be a son or father…
If Jesus willed himself to be less than The Father…then The Father would not be God…

God can do all things except one…and that is make a being equal to himself…because if he could, then he would not be God…and that being could/would have the will and ability to battle God without God's control. It's not proof of God's weakness in nto being able to do so…it's proof of God's greatness…He's so great he can't create something equal.

And there's many more things I can point out, if you're curious, ask and I will answer.

[Lightenup]

Thanks Rokkaman,
Interesting how I had a similar “lightbulb” moment. So, what was it that you read or someone taught you that brought that “light bulb moment?”

We now have very similar understandings and that is remarkable. The only difference that I see is that you think Jesus was created and I say He was begotten-not created.

God bless,
Kathi

[RokkaMan]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2009,05:45)

Thanks Rokkaman, Interesting how I had a similar “lightbulb” moment.  So, what was it that you read or someone taught you that brought that “light bulb moment?” We now have very similar understandings and that is remarkable.  The only difference that I see is that you think Jesus was created and I say He was begotten-not created. God bless, Kathi

No I too believe he was begotten…better put…I believe he came forth. I believe God opened his mouth to speak, and out came the spirit of Jesus…in it the spirit of creation.

[RokkaMan]

It actually happened when I read, Plato's allegory of the cave.
And the one about the “line”

It made me realize that Jesus is a shadow of God…as creation is a shadow of Jesus.

If you get down deeper…My body is a shadow of my spirit…ect

So if u want to elevate to the real thing, you need to understand and take care of the shadows…

Kinda like when your room/house is a mess…it's a shadow of your thinking and state of mind….You needa fix up the shadow before u can be ready for the real thing.

I always clean my house and room before preparing some big adventure/project.

So we need to understand Jesus and learn him in everyway before we can even begin to understand who God is.

[NickHassan]

Hi RM,
We too can be begotten of God.
We follow the one declared to be a son when he was anointed at the Jordan.
The Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God and he is to be the first of many brothers and so I think his Sonship most importantly refers to his anointing.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi RokkaMan

Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 27 2009,13:20)

If Jesus willed himself to be less than The Father…then The Father would not be God…

And there lies the fallacy of your theory.

Jesus did will himself to be less than the Father

“Who, being in very nature  God“, did not consider equality (he was equal) with God something to be grasped (held on to), “BUT MADE HIMSELF NOTHING“, taking the very nature  of a servant, being made in human likeness.  And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8

The very fact that Jesus made himself “nothing” and took on the likeness of sinful flesh is proof of his Deity!

Couple that together with 1 Cor 15 where Jesus IS NOT at this time “subject” to the Father and the fact that the Holy Spirit is subject to him and bingo, you have Jesus as God as the Apostles and the Father himself claim him to be!

When he has done this, “THEN THE SON HIMSELF WILL BE MADE SUBJECT TO HIM who put everything under him, “SO THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL”. 1 Cor 15:28

At this time Jesus is “all in all”! Not to mention that by him and through him all things were created and without him was not “anything” made that was made! John 1:1-3

“What God was the Word was”, is the litteral translation of John 1:1c.

Then ask yourself how any being can be all that the Father is by having all things and all authority and power and in fact like the Father is “all in all”, and yet not be “God”?

The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are “One”, not only in will and purpose, but also “ontologically” they are of the same essence, (Heb 1:3)!

God and his nature is far beyond our human understanding, this is why men and women who have tried to look at him after “our likeness” cannot see the “plurality of oneness” that God is!

In so doing they have reduced Jesus who is the “image of the invisible God” or “God who has made himself visible” into something less than God, therefore in my opinion have created a “false image of God himself”! He has revealed to us who he is by Jesus and men have rejected him as God and made him into the image of a mere man who simply has his Spirit!

Jesus is that “Rock” (YHWH) that followed them in the wilderness, and he is the Great God and Saviour of the New Testament in whom we look to appear! Tit 2:13

For more on Jesus being YHWH in the OT click here and here.

Blessings WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 27 2009,13:54)

So we need to understand Jesus and learn him in everyway before we can even begin to understand who God is.

Thats because he is God! Jesus is not merely a “shadow” thats because he is the very essence of God!

At what point shall we stop learning of Jesus who is all the fullness of deity settled in bodily form?

To be all that God is means he is infinite. Only God can be infinite.

Is the Holy Spirit of God limited? Then why do men say that Jesus is when the Spirit is subject to him?

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So catholic dogma tells you he is the essence of God yet scripture says God was in him?
Whom should we believe?

[Author]

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