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Hi ST,
You say
“Nick – What can I say, I agree with what you say but I believe this is building on truth. I received this revelation while I still believed in the trinity and knew of no reason not to.”
You can only say that surely, considering that you cannot find it written, if you believe that your personal revelations are equal in validity to scripture. Is that what you mean? Surely we prove our personal revelations by finding it written, and with one or two witnessing scripture too?2Cor 13
” 1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 'I personally think that there is no conclusive proof either way, so we can only have an opinion, unless other scripture comes to light.
To say that it was or wasn't Yeshua, is to speculate.
But this subject should continue to be discussed in 'The Angel of the LORD' & 'Christophanies' discussions, and I can see that Nick has already posted there, so I will jump over there.
Hi sscott:
I'd like to answer your questions. First I'll deal with the qestion of Moses seeing God.
Moses conversing with God:
“Now therefore, I pray thee if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people. And he said unto him, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest. And he said unto him, if thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence. For wherein shall it be know here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth. And the Lord said unot Moses, I will do this thing also that thou has spoken: for thou has found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. And Moses said: 'I BESEECH THEE, SHEW ME THY GLORY'. And God said, I WILL MAKE ALL MY GOODNESS PASS BEFORE THEE, AND I WILL PROCLAIM THE NAME OF THE LORD BEFORE THEE; AND WILL BE GRACIOUS TO WHOM I WILL BE GRACIOUS, AND I WILL SHEW MERCY ON WHOM I WILL SHEW MERCY. AND HE SAID THOU CANST NOT SEE MY FACE; FOR THERE SHALL NO MAN SEE ME, AND LIVE. AND THE LOR SAID, BEHOLD, THERE IS A PLACE BY ME, AND THOU SHALT STAND UPON A ROCK; AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, WHILE MY GLORY PASSETH BY, THAT I WILL PUT THEE IN A CLIFT OF THE ROCK, AND WILL COVER THEE WITH MY HAND WHILE I PASS BY: AND I WILL TAKE AWAY MINE HAND, AND THOU SHALT SEE MY BACK PARTS: BUT MY FACE SHALL NOT BE SEEN. (Exodus 33:13-23)
And this is the manifestion:
“AND THE LORD DESCENDED IN THE CLOUD, AND STOOD WITH HIM THERE, AND PROCLAIMED THE NAME OF THE LORD. AND THE LORD PASSED BY BEFORE HIM, AND PROCLAIMED, THE LORD GOD, MERCIFUL AND GRACIOUS, LONGSUFFERING, AND ABUNDANT IN GOODNESS AND TRUTH, KEEPING MERCY FOR THOUSANDS, FORGIVING INIQUITY AND TRANSGRESSION AND SIN, AND THAT WILL BY NO MEANS CLEAR THE GUILTY; VISITING THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHERS UPON THE CHILDREN, AND UPON THE CHILDREN'S CHILDREN UNTO THE THIRD AND TO THE FOURTH GENERATION”. (Exodus 34:5-7)
And so if you look at verse 34:5, God was in a cloud when he passed by Moses, but what Moses really saw is God's character, and I might add when we see Jesus we also see God's character manifest through his life. Hebrews 1:3 states about Jesus: “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person…”.
And then your question about God walking in the Garden.
Genisis 3:8 states: “And they heard the VOICE OF THE LORD GOD walking in the garden”.
This says that they heard the VOICE OF THE LORD GOD. They did not see him walking. They just knew that he was present because they heard His voice. God throne is in heaven, but He can be present everywhere by His Spirit. (Pslam 139)
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 09 2006,20:04) I personally think that there is no conclusive proof either way, so we can only have an opinion, unless other scripture comes to light. To say that it was or wasn't Yeshua, is to speculate.
But this subject should continue to be discussed in 'The Angel of the LORD' & 'Christophanies' discussions, and I can see that Nick has already posted there, so I will jump over there.
Hi t8,
It would be equally speculation to suggest it was Gabriel or Michael or any other being, do you agree? God knows what is written and He gives us sufficient for us to know what He wants us to know. So what value is speculation if it cannot be proven?So we should surely build on facts and add proven facts and we are not to spend too much time disproving the vast volume of the speculative ideas of men surely? If there is no strong evidence in scripture for an idea surely that moot point becomes immediately an irrelevancy.
The Spirit reminds us of the bible teaching and that is where we should mine for truth.
Hi,
Jesus said no man has seen the Father.
But he said he had done so which speaks of his origins.
Some here would doubt this based on what they have found in the OT.
But he is truth and we must find a way to align his pure teachings with what is revealed there.sscott
Quote Hi David, I don't think that analogy applies. The scripture I posted says Moses saw the back of God. I'm just wondering if it's the Father.
Hi sscott. The scripture tells us that no one has seen the Father. This would include His back.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Moses saw the back of God so this could not have been the Father. Yet Jehovah spoke to Moses face to face, and Moses later saw His back as well.
Exo 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
This is where the arian doctrine promoted by t8, Nick, David and others falls apart. The Bible tells us that there are three Persons who are God, so the Lord Jehovah who spoke face to face with Moses was Christ.
Since no one has seen the Father, the only conclusion, then, is that the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh,who appeared to men, is none other than Jesus!
Jesus also appeared to Daniel's 3 friends in the fiery furnace.
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
Hi CB,
Are we allowed to presume stuff that is not written and call it truth as well?
pssst.
Check the YLTand others
on Dan 3.25
“25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods.'
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