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Hi ,
Epistomaniac has brought up this subject.
For discussion purposes.From Monergism.com
“Definition of Monergism: The view that the Holy Spirit is the only agent who effects regeneration of Christians. It is in contrast with synergism, the view that there is a cooperation between the divine and the human in the regeneration process. Monergism is a redemptive blessing purchased by Christ for those the Father has given Him (1 Pet 1:3, John 3:5,6, 6:37, 39). This grace works independently of any human cooperation and conveys that power into the fallen soul whereby the person who is to be saved is effectually enabled to respond to the gospel call (John 1:13; Acts 2:39, 13:48; Rom 9:16). “and here is Tom Schreiner
http://theologica.blogspot.com/2008….nt.htmlregeneration precedes faith
NOT
faith precedes regeneration
ie that God, and God alone, does the saving when people are saved.. that God gives the faith that a person needs in order to be saved, and if God doesn't give this faith, no one would in fact be saved. Its not that man cooperates with God by working with Him in the process of salvation, thats “synergism”… man working cooperatively with God….. this, versus monergism, where God alone works salvation in man. thus enabling man to savingly believe, ergo, regeneration (God taking out the heart of stone and placing in it's place a heart of flesh, an “all God” activity) precedes faith.
Controversial? Shouldn't be, but it is… man always wants to think he is the captain of his own ship, that it is he who is the one who is in charge of everything, particularly his eternal destination. However, we do not live in an anthropocentric universe, but rather a theocentric universe, this is my Father's world… He is the only sovereign being in the universe, He is the only being who truly has “free will”, everyone else's will is shaped and limited by God's will, and when man's will butts head with God's will, guess who loses? Hint, its not God.
blessings,
KenEpistemaniac said:
Quote faith precedes regeneration I disagree. Men are regenerated from the womb (Galatians 4:21-30).
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 04 2009,11:44) Epistemaniac said: Quote faith precedes regeneration I disagree. Men are regenerated from the womb (Galatians 4:21-30).
thinker
Hi thethinker:And so, in what way do the scriptures that you quote from Galatians state that we are regenerated from the womb?
Marty
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 04 2009,14:49) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 04 2009,11:44) Epistemaniac said: Quote faith precedes regeneration I disagree. Men are regenerated from the womb (Galatians 4:21-30).
thinker
Hi thethinker:And so, in what way do the scriptures that you quote from Galatians state that we are regenerated from the womb?
Marty
Hi Marty,
In Galatians 4 Paul said that Isaac was born “according to the spirit” from Sarah's womb while Ishmael was born “according to the flesh” from Hagar's womb. Paul went on to say that Ishmael presecuted Isaac making that a general principle FOR ALL TIME.Quote But as he that was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the spirit, even so it is NOW Ishmael was born according to the flesh because he was from Hagar. Isaac was born according to the spirit because he was from Sarah. The one born of the flesh therefore comes into the world that way. And the one born according to the spirit also comes into the world that way.
Jesus said that one must be born from “above”, that is, according to the spirit. Note too that Sarah represented the Jerusalem that is from ABOVE (4:26). So the man/woman that is born according to the spirit, that is, born from above comes into the world that way.
But the gospel must still be believed that person. The rest will not believe it because they came into the world “of the flesh”.
thinker
Hi TT,
Gal4
22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Abraham was promised a son. But reliant on his carnal mind he thought he would have to seek such a child through a younger woamn as his wife was 90. God and his wife allowed him to do so and he had such a son but God then provided according faith and to the promise miraculously through his wife.
The Law is according to our understanding and is of our works. Faith and the work of the Spirit are beyond our carnal minds and we must rest from our own works to see God work His plan. There is no way that you can have both any more than God let the two sons abide together.
Hi thethinker:
You reason:
Quote Ishmael was born according to the flesh because he was from Hagar. Isaac was born according to the spirit because he was from Sarah. The one born of the flesh therefore comes into the world that way. And the one born according to the spirit also comes into the world that way. Paul is just using this symbolism to describe the two covenants.
Quote Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.Quote Gal 4:23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.Isaac was born to Abraham and Sarah from a promise that was made to Abraham. God told him that he would provide him with an heir. Isaac symbolic of the promised Messiah.
And it is in this promised child that Abraham's seed would be called.Quote Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seedAnd so, that is why the gospel is to be preached to every creature. God is calling whosoever will come into a relationship with him the the promised child, Jesus God's only begotten Son and His Christ.
And Isaac had two sons, Esau which represents those who sold their birthrite and were not born again, and Jacob who wrestled with God and man and his name was changed to Israel.
Quote Rom 9:10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)So this shows that we are called into a relationship with God not because of our goodness. It does not matter how good or how bad a person has been, but he is saved when he answers God's call to come into a relationship with him by believing the gospel with a repentant heart. We are saved by faith coming to God through the Lord Jesus with a repentant heart.
But no, we are not regenerated from birth. All of humanity was born of the flesh. And Jesus states:
Quote Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spiritQuote Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.Marty
942767 said:
Quote Isaac was born to Abraham and Sarah from a promise that was made to Abraham. God told him that he would provide him with an heir. Isaac symbolic of the promised Messiah. Greetings Marty,
Paul did not limit the metaphor to the Messiah alone. He extended it to all believersQuote So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman (Hagar), but of the freewoman (Sarah), vs. 31. Paul's expression “So then” tells us what he concludes. And he concluded regarding the two women and their respective sons that it means that those who do not believe are of Hagar and those who believe are of Sarah. Just as Ishmael was born according to the flesh from his mother's womb and Isaac was born according to the spirit at birth, so it is at the present time.
Quote And so, that is why the gospel is to be preached to every creature. God is calling whosoever will come into a relationship with him the the promised child, Jesus God's only begotten Son and His Christ. Yes! God calls “whosoever will”. He does NOT call “whosoever will not.” God knows beforehand who they are that will not. And He never called them. He never said, “Whosoever will not may come….” Yet we preach to every creature because we don't know who will not. And in our preaching God calls those who He knows will.
blessings,
thinker
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