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Hi All,
It is frustrating to me when I ask a question to TT or WJ, and by the time I get back online there are many new pages in that topic and everyone's thoughts get blended together. That has the undesired effect of giving TT and WJ the option to only answer the questions they choose. All I want is truth. I am not a Bible scholar. My theocratic knowledge is based only on this: I have read the NWT word for word once, I have read the NIV word for word once, and I am in Psalms right now in the CEV. I plan to keep reading different translations until the day I die, God willing.
I have never read anything in the Bible that leads me to believe in a trinity, but I have to acknowledge that many, many people do believe in one. And I even admit that some of TT and WJ's points seem to make sense, on the surface. I can understand how ideas taught from a young age can remain with a person throughout their life, but I can't seem to get closure on any of my questions.
So please respect my wishes to not post here unless you're thethinker.
peace and love to all of you,
mikeHi Thinker,
You posted the following:
Quote
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.The English word “over” is the same Greek word “epi” in both verses.
* The Father is “over (epi) all.”
* Christ is “over (epi) all.”Therefore, God and Christ are EQUAL in authority.
Does anyone else here want to go for it?
thinker
My first response is that of Paul in 1 Cor 15:27:
Quote For he “has put everything under his feet.” [ Psalm 8:6] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. It seems to me that if Paul were here to ask, he would follow the same simple logic that if it says the Christ is “over all”, it is clear that this does not include over God himself, who put Christ “over all.” And it follows that if it is God who has the power to put Christ “over all”, then God is obviously the greater.
Do you agree, TT?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2010,11:28) Hi All, It is frustrating to me when I ask a question to TT or WJ, and by the time I get back online there are many new pages in that topic and everyone's thoughts get blended together. That has the undesired effect of giving TT and WJ the option to only answer the questions they choose. All I want is truth. I am not a Bible scholar. My theocratic knowledge is based only on this: I have read the NWT word for word once, I have read the NIV word for word once, and I am in Psalms right now in the CEV. I plan to keep reading different translations until the day I die, God willing.
I have never read anything in the Bible that leads me to believe in a trinity, but I have to acknowledge that many, many people do believe in one. And I even admit that some of TT and WJ's points seem to make sense, on the surface. I can understand how ideas taught from a young age can remain with a person throughout their life, but I can't seem to get closure on any of my questions.
So please respect my wishes to not post here unless you're thethinker.
peace and love to all of you,
mikeHi Thinker,
You posted the following:
Quote
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.The English word “over” is the same Greek word “epi” in both verses.
* The Father is “over (epi) all.”
* Christ is “over (epi) all.”Therefore, God and Christ are EQUAL in authority.
Does anyone else here want to go for it?
thinker
My first response is that of Paul in 1 Cor 15:27:
Quote For he “has put everything under his feet.” [ Psalm 8:6] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. It seems to me that if Paul were here to ask, he would follow the same simple logic that if it says the Christ is “over all”, it is clear that this does not include over God himself, who put Christ “over all.” And it follows that if it is God who has the power to put Christ “over all”, then God is obviously the greater.
Do you agree, TT?
peace and love,
mike
Mike,First, I was not taught scripture from my youth. I was brouhgt up in a non-Christian home and we never went to church. I converted to Christianity in my early 20's.
Second, show where I said that Christ was over all above the Father. I said that they had “equal” authority. So you have lost the debate already because you misread what I said.
Debate over.
thinker
Hi thinker,
Let's not start off what could be a great relationship by mincing words. Do you or do you not believe that the Son is equal to the Father.
P.S. I didn't know what you background was, I only was telling you mine.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2010,11:43) Hi thinker, Let's not start off what could be a great relationship by mincing words. Do you or do you not believe that the Son is equal to the Father.
P.S. I didn't know what you background was, I only was telling you mine.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,You please don't start off with being coy. You know very well that I believe that Jesus is equal with the Father. I have said it a zillion times here. But you charge me with saying that Christ is over all “above” the Father. But I used the term “equal authority” didn't I?
My original post:
Quote Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. The English word “over” is the same Greek word “epi” in both verses.
* The Father is “over (epi) all.”
* Christ is “over (epi) all.”Therefore, God and Christ are EQUAL in authority.
Does anyone else here want to go for it?
thinker
What you said about my original post:
Quote It seems to me that if Paul were here to ask, he would follow the same simple logic that if it says the Christ is “over all”, it is clear that this does not include over God himself, who put Christ “over all.” So you said that “over all” does not include over God Himself. But I never said “over God” but “EQUAL with the Father.”
Again, this debate is over quite fast.
thinker (This is all I have time for tonight)
Hi Thinker,
Why did you not quote my last sentence? I'll say it again.
If it is clear that Jesus isn't over the Father because it was the Father who put him over all things, then wouldn't it follow that the one who has the power to put the other one where he wishes is the greater of the two?
Have a good night. Contrary to what you might think, I am not on this site to condemn anyone. Again, I'm only after truth. It isn't about “winning” a debate for me, brother; I'm trying to learn.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2010,12:10) Hi Thinker, Why did you not quote my last sentence? I'll say it again.
If it is clear that Jesus isn't over the Father because it was the Father who put him over all things, then wouldn't it follow that the one who has the power to put the other one where he wishes is the greater of the two?
Have a good night. Contrary to what you might think, I am not on this site to condemn anyone. Again, I'm only after truth. It isn't about “winning” a debate for me, brother; I'm trying to learn.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,I did not want to deal with your last sentence until it was first cleared up between us that I have NEVER said that Christ is over all “above” the Father.
WJ and I have answered this question several times now. Paul starts with the fact that Christ existed in the form of God and that He made Himself nothing by taking humanity to Himself and assuming a life of obedience. It was the consequence of Christ's FREE and VOLUNTARY act of humility that His Father exalted him.
Therefore, there is no inequality implied in the Father's having exalted Him. It should not matter anway because He is Lord over us nonetheless. So any supposed inequality He might have to His Father is transparent.
By “transparent” I mean this: Suppose a father and a son own the family business and the father is the senior officer. Then the father promotes his son to senior officer and commits all the administrative duties to his son. He puts his son in charge of everything.
Any inequality between the father and the son is “transparent” to the company's employees. All that matters is that the son is now their ONLY boss. The father does not have his hand in it any more.
Jesus said, “All things have been delivered into MY HANDS by My Father.” This means that the Son runs the whole show now. And even if the Son is under the Father (which he is not), it should matter to us no more than it should matter to the employees of the business. Any employee who argues about the son's relationship to his father just has not accepted that the son is his boss.
Anti-trinitarians argue about this all the time. They are just as perverse as the employees who say, “The son is not equal to his father so he is not my boss.”
Just as the employee who argues will be fired, so the anti-trinitarian who argues will be cast into everlasting punishment.
thinker
tt tell me something why do you have to put Georg into a post that you made with mike, is that fair? Why pick on Him? You and others know that we do not believe in the trinity. And since I am on here anyway I will quote something to mike and I hope you Mike are not going to be mad with me, Be mad with tt, cause it is his fault…..
First of all the trinity never was taught by the Apostles or Jesus. After a bloody and brutal three century it was Constantine who put a stop to all persecution and let Christians have their freedom to practice their religion. It was first called the Universal Roman Church. It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian who was born to pagan parents in 155 A.D. who came up with the trinity, It is said that this was his best achievement to Christianity. The trinity is a man made doctrine and not of God. Scriptures like
Deut. 4:35 “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God, there is none beside Him.”
Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is ONE LORD.”
Notice that in the Old Testament LORD is all in Capital letters. Meaning the God Jehovah.
1 Corinth. 8:4 “And that there is none other God but one.”
And by Jesus own words in
John `14:28…for my Father is greater then I.” On this Scripture tt wants you to believe that Jesus was not equal with His Father, but when He returned to His Father that He was, and is now.
My favorite Scripture is
Ephesians 4:6 …one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.”
Prove it otherwise.You will see that tt will come back and show you Scriptures that do not compare with these do…..
Peace and Love to you and I am so sorry that I had to interfere, but tt had no business mentioning my Husband…
IreneQuote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 02 2010,06:58) tt tell me something why do you have to put Georg into a post that you made with mike, is that fair? Why pick on Him? You and others know that we do not believe in the trinity. And since I am on here anyway I will quote something to mike and I hope you Mike are not going to be mad with me, Be mad with tt, cause it is his fault…..
First of all the trinity never was taught by the Apostles or Jesus. After a bloody and brutal three century it was Constantine who put a stop to all persecution and let Christians have their freedom to practice their religion. It was first called the Universal Roman Church. It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian who was born to pagan parents in 155 A.D. who came up with the trinity, It is said that this was his best achievement to Christianity. The trinity is a man made doctrine and not of God. Scriptures like
Deut. 4:35 “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God, there is none beside Him.”
Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is ONE LORD.”
Notice that in the Old Testament LORD is all in Capital letters. Meaning the God Jehovah.
1 Corinth. 8:4 “And that there is none other God but one.”
And by Jesus own words in
John `14:28…for my Father is greater then I.” On this Scripture tt wants you to believe that Jesus was not equal with His Father, but when He returned to His Father that He was, and is now.
My favorite Scripture is
Ephesians 4:6 …one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.”
Prove it otherwise.You will see that tt will come back and show you Scriptures that do not compare with these do…..
Peace and Love to you and I am so sorry that I had to interfere, but tt had no business mentioning my Husband…
Irene
Okay Irene,I will lay off Georg on this thread.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 02 2010,07:58) Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 02 2010,06:58) tt tell me something why do you have to put Georg into a post that you made with mike, is that fair? Why pick on Him? You and others know that we do not believe in the trinity. And since I am on here anyway I will quote something to mike and I hope you Mike are not going to be mad with me, Be mad with tt, cause it is his fault…..
First of all the trinity never was taught by the Apostles or Jesus. After a bloody and brutal three century it was Constantine who put a stop to all persecution and let Christians have their freedom to practice their religion. It was first called the Universal Roman Church. It was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian who was born to pagan parents in 155 A.D. who came up with the trinity, It is said that this was his best achievement to Christianity. The trinity is a man made doctrine and not of God. Scriptures like
Deut. 4:35 “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God, there is none beside Him.”
Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is ONE LORD.”
Notice that in the Old Testament LORD is all in Capital letters. Meaning the God Jehovah.
1 Corinth. 8:4 “And that there is none other God but one.”
And by Jesus own words in
John `14:28…for my Father is greater then I.” On this Scripture tt wants you to believe that Jesus was not equal with His Father, but when He returned to His Father that He was, and is now.
My favorite Scripture is
Ephesians 4:6 …one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.”
Prove it otherwise.You will see that tt will come back and show you Scriptures that do not compare with these do…..
Peace and Love to you and I am so sorry that I had to interfere, but tt had no business mentioning my Husband…
Irene
Okay Irene,I will lay off Georg on this thread.
thinker
Irene,I edited the post and took out my reference to Georg.
thinker
Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 02 2010,06:58) I hope you Mike are not going to be mad with me, Be mad with tt, cause it is his fault…..
Hi Irene,I'm not mad at anyone. It's a wasted emotion anyway. I do get frustrated with thinker and WJ and CA, but I also learn from them and am glad they are here on this site. Besides, the post was edited before I got to see the referrence to Georg. I'm going to have to learn how to edit posts.
You said:
Quote Notice that in the Old Testament LORD is all in Capital letters. Meaning the God Jehovah. I'll share some info about this that maybe not everyone on this site knows, but in a different topic.
peace and love,
mikemike64
There is a debate site on this forum, further down, you go on that, and usually no one will bother you there.
Georg
Hi Thinker,
You said:
Quote Paul starts with the fact that Christ existed in the form of God and that He made Himself nothing by taking humanity to Himself and assuming a life of obedience. I assume that the Scriptures you are talking about are in Philippians 2. But can you show me any Scriptures that will support that Paul knew and taught that Jesus was God Almighty equal to Jehovah before he became flesh? Because Philippians 2 sure doesn't say that. In fact, 2:6 is one of the best verses I know to contradict the trinity:
Quote 6Who, being in very nature[or form of] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,Plain as day, brother. Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.
Quote It was the consequence of Christ's FREE and VOLUNTARY act of humility that His Father exalted him. IMO, there's a difference between Jesus “willingly” laying down his life for us and being the one who made the decision in the first place. Jesus states over and over that he was on earth to do his Father's will, not his. He even prayed that the Father make it so he didn't have to go through with it, IF it was the Father's will:
Quote Mark 14:36 NIV •
“Abba, [ Aramaic for Father] Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”Now, before you start thinking I'm suggesting Jesus was a coward, let me say that I can't read the accounts of this prayer without tears in my eyes. I can only imagine what it would have been like to willingly (because it was the Father's will) go on at that point, knowing the hours of pain and torture that were coming.
Quote Therefore, there is no inequality implied in the Father's having exalted Him. Did Jesus ever send Jehovah to do his will? Did Jesus ever give Jehovah a name above all others?
Quote It should not matter anway because He is Lord over us nonetheless. Jesus is Lord over us for sure. Is there no difference in your mind between Lord and God Almighty?
Quote So any supposed inequality He might have to His Father is transparent. Supposed inequality? Thinker, are you coming around to the truth?
Quote Jesus said, “All things have been delivered into MY HANDS by My Father.” This means that the Son runs the whole show now. Is Jehovah gone? Is He still our God? Can we still pray to Him, even though Jesus is completly in charge of the whole universe?
Quote Suppose a father and a son own the family business Oh no! The father/son business again? I might comment on that later.
peace and love,
mikeMike said:
Quote In fact, 2:6 is one of the best verses I know to contradict the trinity:
Mike,
How do you figure that verse 6 contradicts Christ's equality with God? It is saying that He did not cling to His equality. It does not say that He was not equal. It means that He denied Himself for our sakes. A supporting scripture is John 1:1-3. It says that the Word was with God and was God and that he became flesh (vs. 14).Mike:
Quote Plain as day, brother. Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.
We agree here. He did not cling to His equality with God but became a servant for our sakes. But we disagree that it implies that He was not equal with God. Paul is talking about Christ's ATTITUDE. He clearly said that He existed in God's FORM.Mike:
Quote IMO, there's a difference between Jesus “willingly” laying down his life for us and being the one who made the decision in the first place. Jesus states over and over that he was on earth to do his Father's will, not his. He even prayed that the Father make it so he didn't have to go through with it, IF it was the Father's will
It was the Father's will but Christ still was not required to do it if He didn't want to. He said that the Father would have sent twelve legions of angels to deliever Him if He had asked.Whoever made the decision in the first place does not matter. Isaiah is an example. God decided that a man must go to the people. God said to Isaiah, “Whom shall we send” Isaiah replied saying, “Send me” (Isaiah 6). God did not require Isaiah to go to the people. Isaiah volunteered of his own.
btw, please note that God said, “Who shall go for US?” Note the “US.” This is the same as in Genesis 1:26, “Let US make man in OUR image.” God is a plural unit and not a solitary unit as anti-trinitarians erroneously think.
Mike:
Quote Did Jesus ever send Jehovah to do his will? Did Jesus ever give Jehovah a name above all others?
Jesus said that the Father would send the Holy Spirit “in MY name” The expression “in MY name” means “on My authority.” Therefore, the Father sent the Holy Spirit on the authority of Jesus. See the thread I started on this and see for yourself all the ways the anti-trinitarians try to get around this. Here is the link:https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2960
Mike:
Quote Supposed inequality? Thinker, are you coming around to the truth?
Let's not play those kinds of games.Mike:
Quote Is Jehovah gone? Is He still our God? Can we still pray to Him, even though Jesus is completly in charge of the whole universe?
We can have nothing from the Father without Jesus. The Father is not like a human father who is directly accessible to his child. The child does not need to go through someone else. He can climb on his father's lap Himself. This is not so with the heavenly Father. We can have a relationship with Him ONLY through Jesus Christ. And it is Jesus Christ who gets to decide who has a relationship with His Father because it is Christ's OWN Father.27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matthew 11:27
So yes we may have a relationship with the Father. But we must always remember that He is our father by adoption. But He is Christ's “own” Father. Jesus said that as our Father He is “in heaven.” But Jesus came directly from the Father's bosom (John 1:18).
Being from the Father's bosom means that Jesus is God Himself.
thinker
thethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Hi Thinker,You said:
Quote Mike,
How do you figure that verse 6 contradicts Christ's equality with God? It is saying that He did not cling to His equality.Are you kidding me, man?
Let's say JustAskin was talking about you and I. He said, “Jack was a great snowboarder in his day. Mike was pretty good too, but as far as snowboarding goes, he never considered equality with Jack something to be grasped.”
Would you seriously take that to mean that our snowboarding skills were equal?
You said:
Quote It means that He denied Himself for our sakes. He denied himself both for our sakes and because it was commanded by his God, the Father. Read John 10:17-18;
Quote 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” Who did Jesus receive the command from? And look at Phillipians 2;8;
Quote 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, Obedient to who? Who did Jesus answer to?
And John 6:38-39 says;
Quote 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. Notice that it was God's will that Jesus would be salvation for us.
You said:
Quote He clearly said that He existed in God's FORM. What does that mean to you? And how do you equate that statement with “Jesus is God Almighty”?
You said:
Quote It was the Father's will but Christ still was not required to do it if He didn't want to. Again, how does that make Jesus God Almighty?
You said:
Quote Whoever made the decision in the first place does not matter. Isaiah is an example. Did Isaiah receive a command from God? Doesn't matter anyway – you can receive a command from God and choose not to do it. You just have to be willing to suffer the consequences. And as far as the “decision-maker”, when did the Holy Spirit send Jehovah to do his will? When did Jesus send Jehovah to do his will? There's only one person doing the sending. And only one person who's will is being done. If the person sent decides it is now their will to do the will of God, then they will do God's will of their own accord. But it is still God's will that is being done.
You said:
Quote btw, please note that God said, “Who shall go for US?” Note the “US.” This is the same as in Genesis 1:26, “Let US make man in OUR image.” God is a plural unit and not a solitary unit as anti-trinitarians erroneously think. Consider Job 1:6-7;
Quote 6 One day the angels [Hebrew:the sons of God] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”“Us” just shows that God communicates with Jesus and the other heavenly beings and possibly asks for their input. And the Genesis “us” is in line with the rest of the Scriptures that say that everything came from God through Jesus. It doesn't say how – God and Jesus could have deliberated for a billion years before creating the first angel. They could have took turns picking shapes and colors of their creations. God could have just said, “Son, I give you the power and authority – create what you wish.” But if by reading, “Let us make man in our image.”, you think that Jesus must have been God, then wouldn't man be God too? And if man is made in their image and is not God, why would Jesus have to be God because he shares his “image” with God?
You said:
Quote Therefore, the Father sent the Holy Spirit on the authority of Jesus John 14 says Jesus asked:
Quote 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. You said:
Quote We can have nothing from the Father without Jesus. EVERYTHING we have comes from the Father, through Jesus Christ.
You said:
Quote The Father is not like a human father who is directly accessible to his child. The child does not need to go through someone else. He can climb on his father's lap Himself. This is not so with the heavenly Father. We can have a relationship with Him ONLY through Jesus Christ. And it is Jesus Christ who gets to decide who has a relationship with His Father because it is Christ's OWN Father. Mankind used to have a direct relationship with the Father. Then our sins became to great. But think about what this means. We cannot approach God directly anymore – we have to go throu
gh Jesus. Doesn't that in itself tell you that Jesus can't be God?You said:
Quote But Jesus came directly from the Father's bosom (John 1:18). John 1:18 actually says:
Quote 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him You said:
Quote Being from the Father's bosom means that Jesus is God Himself. It doesn't say Jesus was FROM the Father's bosom. And consider Luke 16:22-23;
Quote 22 Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of Abraham. “Also, the rich man died and was buried. 23 And in Ha′des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Laz′a‧rus in the bosom [position] with him.
Is Lazarus now equal with Abraham? Is he in fact Abraham? No. To be in the “bosom position” was to be in an exalted, protected position. Means the same as when Jesus is referred to as “sitting at the right hand” of God.
Thinker, this post is bigger than all outdoors, so we can tackle John 1:1 later. And maybe we can debate one point at a time in the future.
peace and love,
mikeMike,
I will reply later. I worked a lot of hours today and I am beat. I have the energy for only a few quick posts.
God bless,
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 04 2010,09:38) Mike, I will reply later. I worked a lot of hours today and I am beat. I have the energy for only a few quick posts.
God bless,
thinker
Hi Thinker,Good! I put in 11 hours at work myself. Talk to ya tomorrow.
May God bless you too
mikeMike,
I am real busy this week doing painting at my church in addition to my regular job. So after this post I will be taking a break. We will get back to it. I won't take the time to edit grammar or spelling.
Mike said:
Quote Are you kidding me, man? Let's say JustAskin was talking about you and I. He said, “Jack was a great snowboarder in his day. Mike was pretty good too, but as far as snowboarding goes, he never considered equality with Jack something to be grasped.”
Would you seriously take that to mean that our snowboarding skills were equal?
Mike,The illustration you gave has nothing to do with anything. Paul had just said that Christ existed “in the FORM of God.” This means that he was God. So his next statement about not grasping equality means that He yielded His equality for our sakes. Note Young's Literal Translation:
who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,
There it is! Jesus did not count it “robbery” or usurping God to be equal to Him. Nevertheless, he made Himself nothing. Explain how He could have made Himself nothing if He was already nothing.
Mike:
Quote denied himself both for our sakes and because it was commanded by his God, the Father. Read John 10:17-18;
Read it again. It says that His Father's comand was that He lay down His life of His own. God did not want a forced obedience. And by making Christ's obedience “forced” you take away from His love for you. The old covenant God wanted a “forced” obedience. But not the new covenant God.Mike:
Quote Obedient to who? Who did Jesus answer to?
He became obedient to His Father. But note that it sayds that He “BECAME” obedient. He did not have to do it. he could have called the twelve legions of angels anytime he wanted to. You're taking away from His love.Mike:
Quote Did Isaiah receive a command from God? Doesn't matter anyway – you can receive a command from God and choose not to do it. You just have to be willing to suffer the consequences. And as far as the “decision-maker”, when did the Holy Spirit send Jehovah to do his will? When did Jesus send Jehovah to do his will? There's only one person doing the sending. And only one person who's will is being done. If the person sent decides it is now their will to do the will of God, then they will do God's will of their own accord. But it is still God's will that is being done. 
Mike:
Quote Notice that it was God's will that Jesus would be salvation for us.
This does not disprove that Jesus VOLUNTARILY gave Himself. The Father's command was that Jesus' obedience be VOLUNTARY. The fact that the Father would have given Him twelve legions of angels is the proof that His obedience was VOLUNTARY. If jesus had chosen not to go to the cross and die for us it would not have been a sin against God. For God would have sent the angels if he had asked.This destroys your “forced” obedience theory. Again, you are taking away from the love of Jesus for you.
thethinker said:
Quote He clearly said that He existed in God's FORM.
Mike asked:
Quote What does that mean to you? And how do you equate that statement with “Jesus is God Almighty”?
It means that He was God. He existed in the form of God. Then He took the “FORM” of a man. Just as the “form” of a man means that He was man, so the “form” of God means that He was God.It's quite simple!
Mike:
Quote Us” just shows that God communicates with Jesus and the other heavenly beings and possibly asks for their input.
What! The “Us” means that God asked for imput from heavenly beings? Give me a break! It says, “Let US make man in OUR image.” Are we made in the image of the heavenly beings? No way! We are made in the image of God ALONE! Therefore, the “Us” refers to a plural God.Mike:
Quote John 14 says Jesus asked
Jesus meant that he would confer with the Father. Verse 26 clearly says that the Father would send the Holy Spirit on Christ's authority.Mike:
Quote EVERYTHING we have comes from the Father, through Jesus Christ.
The Bible does not say that everything comes from the Father. The knowledge of the Father comes from Christ as I have already shown. The Son reveals the Father to whomsoever He wills Matthew 11:27.Show from the Bible that EVERYTHING comes from the Father.
Mike:
Quote Mankind used to have a direct relationship with the Father. Then our sins became to great. But think about what this means. We cannot approach God directly anymore – we have to go through Jesus. Doesn't that in itself tell you that Jesus can't be God?
No! It tells me that Jesus must be God.Mike:
Quote It doesn't say Jesus was FROM the Father's bosom.
Oh yes it does say that Jesus is from the Father's bosom. No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten son, who IS IN the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”Mike:
Quote Is Lazarus now equal with Abraham? Is he in fact Abraham? No. To be in the “bosom position” was to be in an exalted, protected position. Means the same as when Jesus is referred to as “sitting at the right hand” of God
No sir! It
says that Jesus “EXPLAINED” God from the Father's bosom (John 1:18). He was the WORD which always WITH the Father (John 1:1).Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom by the angels. Jesus was the Word which was ALWAYS with God in His bosom.
thinker
Hi Thinker,
Even though I gave you a very good illustration of Paul's words, you (without any good reason at all) said it has nothing to do with anything. So we'll forget it.
You said:Quote Paul had just said that Christ existed “in the FORM of God.” This means that he was God.
It most certainly does not! If Christ was indeed God, why didn't Paul say, “Christ existed as God…but then lowered himself?” It could, however mean that Christ was a heavenly spirit person, as is God. How can we find out? How about the test I told you about in the “are you smarter than a 5th grader” topic – Ask yourself, “did the person who wrote this think Jesus is God Almighty?”Paul said in 1 Cor 15:
Quote Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. Do you see that the Son is one person, who will be made subject to God, another separate person. I know you believe that your Godhead is 3 separate persons, but does it sound like equality when one is made subject to the other?
And Paul said:
Quote 4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Now let's emphasize a couple of points:
1. “an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.” Hmmm…NO God but ONE. But who is that ONE God?
2. “there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live;” Ah, there it is. The ONE God is the Father. Is it the Father/Son/Spirit trinity? Nope, only the Father. (BTW, this Scripture also answers your other challenge):
Quote The Bible does not say that everything comes from the Father. Show from the Bible that EVERYTHING comes from the Father. “from whom ALL things came” Good enough?
But if the Son is not the “ONE God”, who is he?
“and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” Oh, Jehovah's ('s as in possesion) Christ (annointed one of God – one more time – annointed by WHOM?) is the “ONE Lord THROUGH whom all things came”. FROM God, THROUGH Jesus. Get it?
So now that we know that Paul understood the order of things, we can make an educated guess as to which translation of Philippians 2:6 fits more closely with Scripture. Since it is clear that Paul didn't think Jesus was God Almighty, “in the form of” most likely doesn't mean “Jesus is God”.
You said:
Quote It says that His Father's comand was that He lay down His life of His own. I already explained this but you put a funny graphic after my explanation.
I said:
Quote And only one person who's will is being done. If the person sent decides it is now their will to do the will of God, then they will do God's will of their own accord. But it is still God's will that is being done. I'll try again. Just because Jesus did his Father's will of his own accord, it was still his Father's will being done. Actually, his Father's command.
Quote Mike:Quote
Notice that it was God's will that Jesus would be salvation for us.You answered:
This does not disprove that Jesus VOLUNTARILY gave Himself. The Father's command was that Jesus' obedience be VOLUNTARY.Do you even hear what you're saying? You said in essence, “The Father COMMANDED Jesus to do something and Jesus voluntarily OBEYED.” Who commands Jehovah to do anything? Who does Jehovah obey – even voluntarily? Read my pesonal signature at the bottom of this post – that's Jehovah's take on it all. (From Job, btw)
You said:
Quote This destroys your “forced” obedience theory. That's not my theory. Did you even read my post? I said:
Quote you can receive a command from God and choose not to do it. You just have to be willing to suffer the consequences. Nobody, including Jesus MUST obey Jehovah. It is a choice.
You said:
Quote Again, you are taking away from the love of Jesus for you. Please God, I pray never may that be so.
You said:
Quote What! The “Us” means that God asked for imput from heavenly beings? Give me a break! It says, “Let US make man in OUR image.” Are we made in the image of the heavenly beings? No way! We are made in the image of God ALONE! Therefore, the “Us” refers to a plural God. Again, did you even read my post? This kind of stuff is the reason I wanted a one on one debate with you. The Isaiah “whom shall we send” is why I said God POSSIBLY asks for input. The Genesis “us” follows Scripture. I'll post it again:
Quote And the Genesis “us” is in line with the rest of the Scriptures that say that everything came from God through Jesus. It doesn't say how – God and Jesus could have deliberated for a billion years before creating the first angel. They could have took turns picking shapes and colors of their creations. God could have just said, “Son, I give you the
power and authority – create what you wish.” But if by reading, “Let us make man in our image.”, you think that Jesus must have been God, then wouldn't man be God too? And if man is made in their image and is not God, why would Jesus have to be God because he shares his “image” with God?Do you see that my last two sentences end in question marks? Answer them, please. And Jack, please don't try to distort what is clearly posted in black and white for all to see. It's pointless.
I asked:
Quote Mike:Quote
Mankind used to have a direct relationship with the Father. Then our sins became to great. But think about what this means. We cannot approach God directly anymore – we have to go through Jesus. Doesn't that in itself tell you that Jesus can't be God?And you answered:
Quote No! It tells me that Jesus must be God. That's a pretty flippant answer, brother. Let me phrase it like this: Mankind's sins have piled up so high that God can no longer be directly “associated” with us. We can however, go through Jesus. Now if Jesus is an equal part of God Almighty, how is it we can “associate” with him, but not the Father?
I'll put it in another way, just so you can't pretend you don't know what I'm asking. Jesus is like a “filter”. We can't directly talk to God anymore, so we “filter” our prayers and pettitions through Jesus, who then passes them on to God. That's why we pray TO God, THROUGH Jesus. If Jesus is God, then wouldn't we have to “filter” our prayers through someone else, maybe an angel or something?
You said:
Quote Oh yes it does say that Jesus is from the Father's bosom. No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten son, who IS IN the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” Thinker, you proved your own self in error. “is in” is definitely not “from”.
You said:
Quote It says that Jesus “EXPLAINED” God from the Father's bosom (John 1:18). He was the WORD which always WITH the Father (John 1:1). John 1:18 actually says:
Quote 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him Again, it doesn't say “from” anywhere in that verse. And John 1:1 doesn't say “always”. It says in the beginning. We already know from Scripture that Jesus wasn't immortal. He had a beginning, “firstborn of all creation”, and an end. He died. Now God has made him immortal.
Jack, I said before that I'm only after truth. If you can show it to me from God's Word, I will accept it.
peace and love,
mikeMikeboil………He can't he has a TRINITARIAN MIND SET. Your posts are good brother.
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Hi Thinker,
I left out an important (to me) part of my last point. I'll edit it here.
I said:
Quote So now that we know that Paul understood the order of things, we can make an educated guess as to which translation of Philippians 2:6 fits more closely with Scripture. Since it is clear that Paul didn't think Jesus was God Almighty, “in the form of” most likely doesn't mean “Jesus is God”. I meant to add: And “never considered equality with God something to be grasped” most likely doesn't mean “Jesus had equality with God, but didn't cling to it”.
peace and love,
mike
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