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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,03:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 19 2011,10:36) But if you want to understand this to mean that Solomon literally sat on the throne of God, then your scripture disproves Keith's claim that one must BE God in order to sit on His throne, right?
MikeNo it doesn't because the prophetic scriptures of the “Throne of David” on earth was a type of the “Throne of God” in heaven and is proof that Jesus will sit in the “Throne of God” forever and rule forever with the Father.
Blow that straw man down.
WJ
Keith,Even if we did throw logic to the wind and agree with your understanding that the throne of David was the LITERAL throne of our Almighty Creator, you still have a problem. Because this scripture either means that David, Solomon, and all the other kings who ruled from the throne of David were God Himself, or it means that others besides God Himself are able to sit on the throne of God.
So unless you seriously think that David, Solomon, and all the other kings of Judah were God Himself, then you have AGIAN lost your point that ONLY God can sit on God's throne.
I say “AGAIN”, because you have already lost this point by claiming that Jesus IS God, when we know others will sit on his throne with him who will NOT be God.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 19 2011,12:32) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,03:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 19 2011,10:36) But if you want to understand this to mean that Solomon literally sat on the throne of God, then your scripture disproves Keith's claim that one must BE God in order to sit on His throne, right?
MikeNo it doesn't because the prophetic scriptures of the “Throne of David” on earth was a type of the “Throne of God” in heaven and is proof that Jesus will sit in the “Throne of God” forever and rule forever with the Father.
Blow that straw man down.
WJ
Keith,Even if we did throw logic to the wind and agree with your understanding that the throne of David was the LITERAL throne of our Almighty Creator, you still have a problem. Because this scripture either means that David, Solomon, and all the other kings who ruled from the throne of David were God Himself, or it means that others besides God Himself are able to sit on the throne of God.
So unless you seriously think that David, Solomon, and all the other kings of Judah were God Himself, then you have AGIAN lost your point that ONLY God can sit on God's throne.
I say “AGAIN”, because you have already lost this point by claiming that Jesus IS God, when we know others will sit on his throne with him who will NOT be God.
mike
MikeWell Mike, go ahead and justify that someone other than God could sit in the “Throne of God” in heaven if you like, but once again, the Throne of God on the earth was a “Type” of the “Throne of God” in heaven. Men sat in YHVH's throne on earth which is a type of Christ who sits in “Gods Throne” in heaven and means that Jesus will remain in that “Throne” forever and of the increase of his Kingdom there shall be no end.
This means the Father will not boot Jesus out of his throne nor revolk his “Sovereignty” to rule with the Father.
This means he is forever equal with the Father in that rule as God unless you believe the Father takes everything back from Jesus which he left and came to earth then paid the price and won it back? Is that what you believe?
WJ
Keith said to Mike:
Quote This means the Father will not boot Jesus out of his throne nor revolk his “Sovereignty” to rule with the Father.
Keith,You are absolutely correct. The Father cannot justly revoke Christ's sovereignty for two reasons:
1. The throne was Christ's by inreritance. The heir is the RIGHTFUL owner.
2. Christ purchased the kingdom with HIS OWN BLOOD.
Jesus' sovereignty cannot be revoked. But He can freely yield it which is what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 15.
Jack.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 20 2011,07:16) Keith, Christ purchased the kingdom with HIS OWN BLOOD.
Jack.
Hi Jack,Who did he purchase it from?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 20 2011,07:16) Keith said to Mike: Quote This means the Father will not boot Jesus out of his throne nor revolk his “Sovereignty” to rule with the Father.
Keith,You are absolutely correct. The Father cannot justly revoke Christ's sovereignty for two reasons:
1. The throne was Christ's by inreritance. The heir is the RIGHTFUL owner.
2. Christ purchased the kingdom with HIS OWN BLOOD.
Jesus' sovereignty cannot be revoked. But He can freely yield it which is what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 15.
Jack.
Hi Jack,1. You are helping Keith divert from the actual point in question, which is: If Solomon's throne is literally YHVH's throne, then those who are NOT God CAN sit on the throne of God. And that shoots down Keith's claim that Jesus must be God because ONLY God can sit on the throne of God.
2. To “revoke” Christ's Sovereignty, God would have had to give it to him as a “forever gift”. That is never said in scripture. In fact, what IS said, is that Jesus will rule UNTIL the enemies that his God placed at his feet are destroyed by him. There was always a time limit involved. And if God tells Jesus to rule UNTIL two years have passed, or whatever, and Jesus turns the rule back over AFTER the two years have passed, then it is not a “revokation” of the rule, but a matter of the designated time coming to an end.
3. You say Christ can freely yield the rule. What difference does it make? If it makes you feel better that Christ takes it upon himself to “YIELD” the rule back to his God, then I can live with that. Either way, Christ will NOT have the Sovereign Rule forever, like Keith claims. Instead, he will hand the Kingdom back to his God, and he will rule forever as PRINCE to his God………….from the throne of the one God calls “my servant, David”.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,05:04) Well Mike, go ahead and justify that someone other than God could sit in the “Throne of God” in heaven if you like, but once again, the Throne of God on the earth was a “Type” of the “Throne of God” in heaven. Men sat in YHVH's throne on earth which is a type of Christ who sits in “Gods Throne” in heaven and means that Jesus will remain in that “Throne” forever and of the increase of his Kingdom there shall be no end.
Hi Keith,You say the men who sat in the “throne of God” on earth are “types of Christ”. And who is a “christ”? Isn't it someone who is anointed BY GOD?
Do you suggest that God anointed HIMSELF?
If a christ is someone who was anointed BY God, then a christ cannot possibly BE God.
Please answer the bolded points that you missed -the ones I reposted for you today.
mike
For Keith, who thinks he is both a brother and a son of God:
Have a laugh guys. Ray Stevens is hilarious.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,02:59) Paul says “in Christ there is neither male nor female” which implies if we are going to be like the Angels that do not marry it is because they have no gender.
Oops, I left this scripture out of my response, Keith.Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2011,17:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,02:59) Paul says “in Christ there is neither male nor female” which implies if we are going to be like the Angels that do not marry it is because they have no gender.
Oops, I left this scripture out of my response, Keith.Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.mike
Hi Mike , I was reading romans 8:29 and I didn't find your scripture as you stated. Using the word “Brethern” could be used to enhance what your saying though. But the predestine is for His Father and His will to be done. Foreknowledge means that God's purposed from eternity to love and redeem the human race through Christ Jesus. (5:8) ( John3:16 )Quote (thehappyman @ Feb. 20 2011,21:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2011,17:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,02:59) Paul says “in Christ there is neither male nor female” which implies if we are going to be like the Angels that do not marry it is because they have no gender.
Oops, I left this scripture out of my response, Keith.Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.mike
Hi Mike , I was reading romans 8:29 and I didn't find your scripture as you stated. Using the word “Brethern” could be used to enhance what your saying though. But the predestine is for His Father and His will to be done. Foreknowledge means that God's purposed from eternity to love and redeem the human race through Christ Jesus. (5:8) ( John3:16 )
hi Happymanfirst from eternity; Foreknowledge means that God's purposed from eternity to love and redeem the human race through Christ Jesus. (5:8) ( John3:16 )
means what ?;before he start the creation of men or before he start any of his creation ?
this second choice would be before he created Christ.
Pierre
Quote (thehappyman @ Feb. 20 2011,14:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2011,17:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,02:59) Paul says “in Christ there is neither male nor female” which implies if we are going to be like the Angels that do not marry it is because they have no gender.
Oops, I left this scripture out of my response, Keith.Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.mike
Hi Mike , I was reading romans 8:29 and I didn't find your scripture as you stated. Using the word “Brethern” could be used to enhance what your saying though. But the predestine is for His Father and His will to be done. Foreknowledge means that God's purposed from eternity to love and redeem the human race through Christ Jesus. (5:8) ( John3:16 )
Hi happyman,I quoted the NIV version. You are correct that the Greek word does not EXPLICITELY mention sisters – and because of that, I will not continue to use this scripture as proof of gender in heaven. I will, however point out this info from NETNotes:
Rom 1:132tn
Grk “brothers,” but the Greek word may be used for “brothers and sisters” or “fellow Christians” as here (cf. BDAG 18 s.v. ἀδελφός 1, where considerable nonbiblical evidence for the plural ἀδελφοί [adelfoi] meaning “brothers and sisters” is cited).This says the word “adelfoi” can be used for brothers and sisters, as it is often translated in scripture. And that there is considerable NONBIBLICAL EVIDENCE of this fact. But since it isn't clear from only BIBLICAL evidence that Paul meant to say brothers AND sisters in 8:29 – I withdraw this as any kind of proof.
Kangaroo Jack has taught me to check the sources before going off half-cocked and posting a scripture. I ignored that advice this time because I was in a hurry – as you can tell it was an afterthought to my actual response post.
And we can all see what happens when I go off half-cocked without taking the time to check and re-check before I post.
Thanks for pointing out my error, happyman. I don't want to be in the position of spouting things that are unscriptural.
peace and love to you,
mikeBump for Jack and Keith:
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 20 2011,07:16) Keith said to Mike: Quote This means the Father will not boot Jesus out of his throne nor revolk his “Sovereignty” to rule with the Father.
Keith,You are absolutely correct. The Father cannot justly revoke Christ's sovereignty for two reasons:
1. The throne was Christ's by inreritance. The heir is the RIGHTFUL owner.
2. Christ purchased the kingdom with HIS OWN BLOOD.
Jesus' sovereignty cannot be revoked. But He can freely yield it which is what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 15.
Jack.
Hi Jack,1. You are helping Keith divert from the actual point in question, which is: If Solomon's throne is literally YHVH's throne, then those who are NOT God CAN sit on the throne of God. And that shoots down Keith's claim that Jesus must be God because ONLY God can sit on the throne of God.
2. To “revoke” Christ's Sovereignty, God would have had to give it to him as a “forever gift”. That is never said in scripture. In fact, what IS said, is that Jesus will rule UNTIL the enemies that his God placed at his feet are destroyed by him. There was always a time limit involved. And if God tells Jesus to rule UNTIL two years have passed, or whatever, and Jesus turns the rule back over AFTER the two years have passed, then it is not a “revokation” of the rule, but a matter of the designated time coming to an end.
3. You say Christ can freely yield the rule. What difference does it make? If it makes you feel better that Christ takes it upon himself to “YIELD” the rule back to his God, then I can live with that. Either way, Christ will NOT have the Sovereign Rule forever, like Keith claims. Instead, he will hand the Kingdom back to his God, and he will rule forever as PRINCE to his God………….from the throne of the one God calls “my servant, David”. And since God cannot conceivably be His own servant, I don't think the throne of David is LITERALLY the throne of YHVH, as in the one He Himself rules from. It is the throne of YHVH in the sense that it is the throne YHVH's anointed kings sat in.
mike
Bump for Keith:
Hi Keith,
Matthew 20:20-21, 23
20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.
21 “What is it you want?” he asked.She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.”
23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
Psalm 110:1
Of David. A psalm. YHVH says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”Acts 5:31
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.1. Keith, based on what these scriptures teach us, is the right hand position of a ruler GRANTED by the one who is in power? YES or NO?
2. Based on the obvious and honest answer of “YES” to the first question, does being EXALTED or GRANTED the position of “right hand” imply equality with the one who EXALTED or GRANTED another TO that position? YES or NO?
mike
Bump for Keith:
Hi Keith,
1. Knowing that Jesus is NOT everything the BEING OF GOD is, can Jesus possibly BE the BEING OF GOD that he is the Son of?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2011 @ 03:19)
Yes Jesus is the Son of the Father
Keith, I just counted 41 scriptures that call Jesus the “Son of God”. NOT the “Son of the Father”, but the “Son of GOD”. And that's not even counting the ones that says he is the “Son of THE Living God”, or the ones that refer to him as “God's Son” or “His Son”.In light of these 41+ scriptures, and the 6900+ times that God is referred to by a SINGULAR pronoun such as “He” and “Him”, could you answer my question with a simple YES or NO?
2. According to MANY scriptures, is Jesus the Son of the SINGULAR BEING called “God”? Yes or No?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 19 2011,19:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2011,05:04) Well Mike, go ahead and justify that someone other than God could sit in the “Throne of God” in heaven if you like, but once again, the Throne of God on the earth was a “Type” of the “Throne of God” in heaven. Men sat in YHVH's throne on earth which is a type of Christ who sits in “Gods Throne” in heaven and means that Jesus will remain in that “Throne” forever and of the increase of his Kingdom there shall be no end.
Hi Keith,You say the men who sat in the “throne of God” on earth are “types of Christ”. And who is a “christ”? Isn't it someone who is anointed BY GOD?
Mike“The Christ is the Messiah”! There is only “One” Messiah that would sit in the Throne of David, the Throne of God forever and that is Jesus.
Now listen real close Mike.
The word “Christos” in the greek NT in every case is speaking of Jesus except the “false christ” Jesus warns of.
That is 569 times in the AV and all of them refering to Jesus and none of them refering to anyone else.
There is “Only” one true Christ (Messiah) in the NT scriptures.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,21:52) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 20 2011,07:16) Keith said to Mike: Quote This means the Father will not boot Jesus out of his throne nor revoke his “Sovereignty” to rule with the Father.
Keith,You are absolutely correct. The Father cannot justly revoke Christ's sovereignty for two reasons:
1. The throne was Christ's by inreritance. The heir is the RIGHTFUL owner.
2. Christ purchased the kingdom with HIS OWN BLOOD.
Jesus' sovereignty cannot be revoked. But He can freely yield it which is what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 15.
Jack.
Hi Jack,1. You are helping Keith divert from the actual point in question, which is: If Solomon's throne is literally YHVH's throne, then those who are NOT God CAN sit on the throne of God. And that shoots down Keith's claim that Jesus must be God because ONLY God can sit on the throne of God.
No Mike it doesn’t shoot down the fact that they sat on the Throne of God in earth over the Kingdom of God (Israel), a type of the Throne and the Kingdom of heaven.Jesus fulfills the scriptures by sitting in the Throne of God in heaven forever as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,21:52) 2. To “revoke” Christ's Sovereignty, God would have had to give it to him as a “forever gift”.
Actually the Father did better than give it to him as a gift. He gave Jesus back what was rightfully his as the heir to all things since it was by him (Jesus) and for him (Jesus ) that all things were made. Jesus paid the price to redeem all the creation back to himself.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,21:52) That is never said in scripture. In fact, what IS said, is that Jesus will rule UNTIL the enemies that his God placed at his feet are destroyed by him. There was always a time limit involved. And if God tells Jesus to rule UNTIL two years have passed, or whatever, and Jesus turns the rule back over AFTER the two years have passed, then it is not a “revokation” of the rule, but a matter of the designated time coming to an end.
The scriptures do not say Jesus will cease to rule and in fact they say otherwise…For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. “Of the increase of his government and peace THERE SHALL BE NO END”, upon the throne of David, and upon “HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth “even for ever”. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isa 9:6, 7
“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And “to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom”, that all peoples, nations, and languages “should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed”.” Daniel 7:13-14
“And the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.’”Luke 1:30-33
“For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into “the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”.” 2 Peter 1:11
The above scriptures tell us of the Throne of God and the Kingdom of God which is Christ and that it will never end.
, and HE WILL REIGN over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end
Is the Father going to demote Jesus after he hands the Kingdom over to the Father? Or will he according to these scriptures and Rev 22:1 continue to reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords in the Throne with the Father?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,21:52) 3. You say Christ can freely yield the rule. What difference does it make? If it makes you feel better that Christ takes it upon himself to “YIELD” the rule back to his God, then I can live with that. Either way, Christ will NOT have the Sovereign Rule forever, like Keith claims.
The scriptures clearly say… .“Of the increase of his government and peace THERE SHALL BE NO END”, upon the throne of David, and upon “HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth “even for ever”
Is there more than “One Kingdom of God”?
Are you going to make an entrance into the Kingdom of God which is Jesus Kingdom…
“For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into “the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”.” 2 Peter 1:11
The reason the Kingdom of God is called the Kingdom of Jesus is because Jesus is God You can't see that Mike?
It is not called the Kingdom of Mike, or Gabriel or Keith or t8 or Jack is it Mike?
WJ
Mike said:
Quote 1. You are helping Keith divert from the actual point in question, which is: If Solomon's throne is literally YHVH's throne, then those who are NOT God CAN sit on the throne of God. And that shoots down Keith's claim that Jesus must be God because ONLY God can sit on the throne of God.
Yet David saw Jesus at God's right hand.KJ
WJ said to Mike:
Quote Is the Father going to demote Jesus after he hands the Kingdom over to the Father?
Keith,You must realize Mike's and JA's backward economy. In their scheme God demotes the humble when in fact God EXALTS the humble.
When Jesus humbles Himself and delivers the kingdom to the Father He will be exalted again like He was exalted the first time He humbled Himself.
You haven't figured it out yet that Mike's God is unjust.
Jack
Mike said:
Quote 1. You are helping Keith divert from the actual point in question, which is: If Solomon's throne is literally YHVH's throne, then those who are NOT God CAN sit on the throne of God. And that shoots down Keith's claim that Jesus must be God because ONLY God can sit on the throne of God.
Yet David said that Christ was his ADONAY (God) at Jehovah's right hand. This cannot be Jehovah at David's right hand because the word “adonay” means “MY Lord.” Jehovah was not calling someone else His own Lord.Jack
Keith said to Mike:
Quote The scriptures clearly say… . “Of the increase of his government and peace THERE SHALL BE NO END”, upon the throne of David, and upon “HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth “even for ever”
Is there more than “One Kingdom of God”?
Are you going to make an entrance into the Kingdom of God which is Jesus Kingdom…
“For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into “the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”.” 2 Peter 1:11
The reason the Kingdom of God is called the Kingdom of Jesus is because Jesus is God You can't see that Mike?
It is not called the Kingdom of Mike, or Gabriel or Keith or t8 or Jack is it Mike?
WJ
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