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Hi Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)
So where are we now, Keith? The explanations of your “NO” answer didn't pan out, did they? So my question remains, but I'll restate it for you now:1 Corinthians 15 NIV
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father……..Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ……..the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.Keith, based on the words of the above scripture, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God?
No the scripture doesn’t say “he will turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? The scriptures say “His (Jesus) Kingdom and dominion is forever“.Nowhere does it say he will cease to be “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” in his Kingdom does it Mike?
Nowhere does it say he will not have “Sovereign rule” with the Father does it Mike?
Nowhere does the scriptures say the Father will remove Jesus out of the “Throne of God” does it Mike?
Mike do you have a scripture that says Jesus will be less “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” or have less authority and power in “His” and “the Fathers” Kingdom?
Will all things still belong to Jesus or not?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:19) Hi Mike Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)
So where are we now, Keith? The explanations of your “NO” answer didn't pan out, did they? So my question remains, but I'll restate it for you now:1 Corinthians 15 NIV
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father……..Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ……..the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.Keith, based on the words of the above scripture, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God?
No the scripture doesn’t say “he will turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? The scriptures say “His (Jesus) Kingdom and dominion is forever“.Nowhere does it say he will cease to be “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” in his Kingdom does it Mike?
Nowhere does it say he will not have “Sovereign rule” with the Father does it Mike?
Nowhere does the scriptures say the Father will remove Jesus out of the “Throne of God” does it Mike?
Mike do you have a scripture that says Jesus will be less “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” or have less authority and power in “His” and “the Fathers” Kingdom?
Will all things still belong to Jesus or not?
WJ
Keith,At least Mike admits that jesus is sovereign NOW. Seeing that Mike lives NOW, then Jesus is MIKE'S Sovereign Ruler!
Jack
We (believers) are the light of the world WJ.
Deal with it.Jesus is the light of the world.
Deal with that.There is one Spirit
Deal with it.Angels are ministering spirits.
Deal with that.God is the saviour
Deal with it.Jesus is the one whom God made saviour and messiah.
Deal with that.Don't try to make all this mean something that was unintended.
Jesus said, “not MY will but YOURS”. He clearly demonstrated and taught that he was doing the WILL of the Father.
You don't need great intelligence to understand that this is not a contradiction and thus Jesus does not need to be forced into being God to make it fit.
If you do that, then you infringe on the true meaning of hundreds of scriptures which is not a wise thing to do.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 15 2011,08:32) Keith, At least Mike admits that jesus is sovereign NOW. Seeing that Mike lives NOW, then Jesus is MIKE'S Sovereign Ruler!
Jack
The head of the man is Christ and the head of Christ is God.See that. We obey God when we come under the head which is Christ.
Not hard now is it?
You just need to believe scripture as it was intended to be understood.
Hi t8
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 11 2011,03:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:16) Really? So let me see… Adam = One man
adam = all men
God = One God
god = all gods
Adam (The Man – identity)adam (man/human nature – qualitatively speaking)
Please explain how “Qualitatively” adam has less man/human – nature than “Adam”.Quote (t8 @ Feb. 11 2011,03:45) God (The God – identity) god (divine nature/divine office – qualitatively speaking)
Then please explain how Jesus who is God qualitatively is less divine in nature than “God”?WJ
He is the originator of that nature or the prototype. His offspring inherit that nature through him.
As far as less or more of that nature is concerned, my answer is that this is not the issue.
It makes no difference if we are equal or less in that nature because the issue is that only he is Adam in identity and likewise only the Father is God in identity.
In nature or in a qualitative way, there are a lot more that can be called man/adam or god/theos.
This is the point. It should have been understood by you long ago as I have repeated it more times than I can remember and in many different ways too.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,08:51) Then please explain how Jesus who is God qualitatively is less divine in nature than “God”?
You can answer your own question by answering this.How are we less divine in nature if we can partake in it?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
You mean scriptures like John 1:1 or Matt 28:19? Why don’t you acknowledge the obvious meaning of John 1:1 which 99% of the scholarly world accepts, without inferring words or your own interpretation?
Hi Keith,What is OBVIOUS about 1:1 is that we know from Rev that Jesus is the Word OF God, so therefore not the God he is the Word OF. Also, we know that the being of God cannot possibly be said to be WITH the being of God. A sane person does not say, “Mike was WITH Mike, and WAS Mike”. For any one thing to be WITH a thing, it is common sense that there are two things involved. But if you want to discuss 1:1 further, let's do it in the “John 1:1-3” thread that I believe Nick Hassan started. I've already got some info there to start with.
As far as 28:19, what is there to say? IF the scripture is REAL, which is unlikely simply because no one in scripture ever baptized with this formula, it still says nothing about a plural Godhead with three members – no matter how badly you want it to. But it's very telling to note that you point to THIS ambiguous scripture so often……………knowing full well that no disciple of Jesus ever followed this “command”.
I recently watched something on Youtube which quoted the words of a Catholic Pope saying that the Catholic Church changed that verse from “in my name” to what it says now. I think it said it was quoted from page 495 of the Catholic Encyclopedia, but I haven't researced it yet. But you can Youtube the scripture, and check out the videos yourself if you want to.
1 Corinthians 15:24 NIV
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the FatherQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
I don’t see the words “Jesus will eventually turn this “SOVEREIGN” reign he has been given by his God back over to his God”. Do you?It says he will hand over the Kingdom to God the Father….
Think Keith. If you agree that “Sovereign” implies the ONE who is the highest, then it cannot possibly be used to refer to one who has SUBJECTED HIMSELF TO ANOTHER, can it? (Please answer this.)Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
yet we read…For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. “Of the increase of his government and peace THERE SHALL BE NO END”, upon the throne of David, and upon “HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth “even for ever”. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isa 9:6, 7
I left your bolded and underlined words, and supersized the ones that I wanted to emphasize. The first point is that Jesus will sit in the DAVIDIC throne forever. Now if David wasn't God Almighty, and Jesus is heir to HIS throne, then how is it that ruling from David's throne forever makes Jesus God Almighty? The second point is that the last line makes it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that YHVH, the One who is the GOD of Jesus, is the One who will set Jesus up to rule from David's throne forever. Get it Keith? YHVH is God. David is NOT God. Yet it is the DAVIDIC throne that Jesus will rule from forever………..not God's throne.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And “to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom”, that all peoples, nations, and languages “should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed”.” Daniel 7:13-14
Keith, WHO do you suppose GAVE this Kingdom to Jesus? I suppose it is the “Ancient of Days” that Jesus was PRESENTED BEFORE. Do you suppose that God Almighty needs someone to GIVE Him a Kingdom?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
“And the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.’”Luke 1:30-33
In this one, we see that Jesus is the SON of the Most High. NOT to be confused with the Most High Himself, but the SON OF that One. And once again, we see that the Lord God GIVES Jesus……………which throne? God's Throne? NOPE. That's right, it's “his father DAVID'S throne” that is GIVEN to Jesus BY God, the MOST HIGH.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
“For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into “the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”.” 2 Peter 1:11Wasn't Israel the “Kingdom of David” while he ruled? If God set John Smith up over a kingdom, couldn't that kingdom be referred to as “The Kingdom of John Smith”? And it is the Kingdom OF the disciples too, right? Jesus said “I confer on YOU a kingdom, JUST AS my Father conferred on on me.” But just to be sure that Peter's not thinking Jesus IS God, let's see what else he says in that same chapter:
2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voic
e came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”I think it's pretty safe to say that Peter recognized Jesus as someone OTHER THAN God. But I could post many other things Peter wrote to confirm this if you'd like.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
This is called proper Biblical exegesis and not selective theology.
And look at how it turned out for you. Not one of the scriptures you quoted proved anything except for the fact that Jesus' God GAVE him David's throne to rule from forever. This much I knew.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
Selective theology takes certain scriptures that fit their view while rejecting others that may not agree with their view.
And I'm sure you know that practice inside and out, Keith. It's the ONLY way a trinitarian can even pretend to make a claim for their false, man-made doctrine.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
Is there a scripture that says Jesus will no longer have “Sovereign” rule?
Well Keith, if Jesus is the Sovereign Ruler of all right now, but then HANDS THE KINGDOM BACK TO THE FATHER, and SUBJECTS HIMSELF TO GOD, so that God can be all in all, then YES, there IS a scripture that says that. It's in 1 Cor 15.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
Can you prove by scriptures that Jesus will be less “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” in his Kingdom?
Less than who? Jesus will be the King of kings and Lord of lords as he rules as the HEIR to the throne of David. But if you're asking if he will be “less” than the One he calls “my God”, then the “my God” part should answer the question for you. The one who HAS a God is obviously less THAN that God, right?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
Can you prove by scriptures that Jesus will no longer sit in the throne of God with the Father?
Yes Keith. See 1 Cor 15.1. God places everything at the feet of Jesus.
2. God gives Jesus all the power and authority needed to destroy the enemies.
3. Jesus destroys what God has laid low for him. (Maybe as a final insult to those enemies? I remember David wanting one of his sons to behead a defeated king. This would have served as an insult to that king by being killed by the son and not the father.)
4. Jesus then HANDS THE KINGDOM (the Sovereign Reign of it) back over to his God and subjects himself to the Sovereign King of All, thereby becoming one of the many SUBJECTS of that King.
5. Jesus sits back in his OWN throne (as the HEIR to what is really the throne of DAVID).
6. From DAVID'S throne, he will rule over all else forever, (but UNDER his God just like David did). Some of those who overcome will rule with him from his throne, meaning they will co-rule with Jesus as BROTHERS. And those ones will be JOINT HEIRS with Jesus……………OF HIS FATHER, who will have become their adoptive Father also.See Keith? BROTHERS with Jesus…………..SONS of God. The throne of DAVID, not GOD. Why do you think God many times referred to the coming Messiah as “my servant David”?
Why can't you see this?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:10)
Here you say Jesus has “Sovereign reign” and above you said “But doesn't “Sovereign” imply the ONE who is HIGHEST of all?” So does this mean that the Father does not have “Sovereign reign”?
Jesus has been given Sovereign RULE for a time, Keith. The Sovereign of the Universe has given His Son the “head” RULE for awhile. YHVH is the SOVEREIGN BEING of the Universe, but he has let His Son rule in His stead for awile. So the RULE of Jesus, as he is ruling FROM the throne of his God is the Sovereign RULE, but Jesus' God still remains the Sovereign BEING. Get it Keith? No being that HAS A GOD can be the Sovereign BEING. And Jesus HAS A GOD – YHVH does NOT.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:10)
You have failed to show us how someone can reign as “Sovereign” and not be “Sovereign” or how somone can be “Sovereign” and not have “Sovereign reign”.
No, I showed you FROM SCRIPTURE the case of Joseph and the Pharaoh. And you couldn't even deny this proof. All you could say is “Joseph wasn't the SON of the Pharaoh”. So what? What does that mean? Are you saying that if Joseph was the SON of the Pharaoh in the same situation, THEN Joseph would have BECOME the Sovereign BEING of Egypt, as if Pharaoh ceased to exist?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:10)
You have agreed that Jesus has “Sovereign reign” so does that mean the Father does not have “Sovereign reign”?
Correct. For a time, the Father does NOT have the Sovereign REIGN, because He has handed that over to Jesus. But the Father is still the Sovereign BEING in existence, and will regain the Sovereign REIGN when Jesus steps down to his OWN throne – the throne of DAVID.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10) This sounds to me like the Son will be subject TO God. And if the Son is a SUBJECT of the Sovereign of the Kingdom, then he can't possibly BE that same Sovereign he is subject to, can he? Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:10)
Of course he can if he is both man and God which is what the scriptures teach.
What the crap kind of answer is this? Jesus sujects himself TO the Sovereign, and reigns from David's throne – UNDER HIS GOD, JUST AS DAVID REIGNED – yet he can still BE that same Sovereign he is now the SUBJECT OF? Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:10)
Your analogies are full of spin and lack so much. Yes Mike the USA is my country but that doesn’t mean “I OWN It” or that “I created it” for my good pleasure does it?
What?!? So the ones that Jesus conferred a kingdom upon could call this same Kingdom of God “MY Kingdom”, right? It doesn't mean THEY own it either. And by saying “the Kingdom of Christ” doesn't mean CHRIST owns it anymore than it meant David own the nation of Israel, right? I have made my point, and you have confirmed it in the middle of thinking you were refuting it.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:10)
So what you are saying is since Jesus has “Sovereign rule” right now, then the Father cannot have “Sovereign rule’ also? Is the Father not also sitting in his throne having “Sovereign rule”?
Keith, you make a good point. For God to be putting everything at Jesus' feet, He would have to be “ruling” in some way, right? So maybe I've been seeing it wrong. I assumed that since God is our only Sovereign BEING, yet we can't right now approach Him directly, but instead must go through His Messiah, that He had “stepped down” from reigning until He allowed His Son to accomplish what He is making it possible for him to accomplish.But you are right. It does say that Jesus is on God's throne WITH God right now. So, that reminder leads to believe that God IS, WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE the Sovereign BEING in existence, but right now there are TWO who share the Sovereign RULE. But not for long, right? Because one of those two will soon hand the Sovereign Reign of the Kingdom over to the other One, so that One can be all in all.
At the same time, the one who relinquished his share of the Sovereign Reign will begin to reign, UNDER HIS SOVEREIGN, and from his OWN throne – the one he inherited from David. It is from THAT throne that risen humans will reign with him as brothers………….also UNDER THEIR SOVEREIGN.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:10)
“All things were created by and for Jesus” but they also say…
No scripture ever says things were created BY Jesus. If they did, those same scriptures would contradict other scriptures………such as Acts 4:24.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:10)
For of him, and “THROUGH HIM, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rom 11:36Take your pick Mike because this scripture says all things not only come “from” the Father or Jesus, but also all things come “Through” the Father or Jesus.
Keith, you always waste my time with these “proof text” scriptures. Romans 11:36 is CLEARLY about GOD, not Jesus.35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”
36 For from him and through him and for h
im are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.Why didn't you post verse 35, which is taken from Job and also where I got my signature? And why post this at all? This is how you divert. Just like bringing up John 1:1 and Matthew 28:19 in your other post. You cannot possibly allow the conversation to stay focused on one point, because you KNOW if you do, you will LOSE that point. So you must always load your post with many scriptures as you imply they say something to prove that Jesus is God Almighty. But they NEVER DO! And it's frustrating, because every time I've tried to isolate just ONE of those scriptures and discuss it with you………….you bail. Remember our last debate Keith? Where we were going ONE SCRIPTURE AT A TIME? You can't do it that way, because you already KNOW they don't really say what you want them to.
Look at the 4 you posted in the last post. All but one of them CLEARLY lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN God, but you post them as if they prove YOUR point.
Clearly diversions, Keith. I MUST force myself to stop being lead down these paths. I MUST control myself, and ignore all the “fluff” you post…………and stick to the ISSUE at hand. The “fluff” is always so blatantly unscriptural, and I can't seem to help myself. And then, when I DO remain strong and ignore it, I've got you breathing down my neck asking why I didn't answer all your points. AHHHHHHHHH!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:10)
Yes the Holy Spirit also subjects himself to Jesus but does that mean Jesus is “Greater” than the Holy Spirit? Your wife subjects herself to you but does that mean she is “inferior” to you?
Yes Keith, the one who subjects himself to the other is the inferior one. And what Paul and Jesus said is that the one who is lessor HERE will be higher IN HEAVEN. They didn't say that the one who makes himself lessor HERE would also be higher HERE.Keith, let's solve this thing right now.
CAN TWO REIGN FROM THE SAME THRONE AND SHARE THE SOVEREIGN REIGN? We both agree: YES!
BUT, CAN TWO ACTUALLY BE THE SOVEREIGN BEING OF THE UNIVERSE IF ONE OF THOSE TWO:
A. SUBJECTS HIMSELF TO THE OTHER?
B. HANDS THE KINGDOM OVER TO THE OTHER?
C. CALLS THE OTHER “MY GOD”?Keith, answer these last three, and let's see where it goes from there, okay? But no more scriptures that don't even say what you claim they do, okay? That is just a diversion to get me off topic and keep me busy with other things as a distraction.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:18)
Yes there is because Jesus will still be the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” in his Kingdom. The Apostles will never be that nor sit in the throne of God.
First you say “Jesus IS God”, but then you say none of the Apostles will sit in the throne of God. Make up your mind! Keith, is Jesus heir to DAVID'S throne? Is it the throne of DAVID that Jesus will rule from forever?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:18)
There are no scriptures that say Jesus will not reign sovereign
Stop right there Keith. We're not looking for scriptures that prove a negative, are we? There's no scripture that says Moses will not reign sovereign either…….but that doesn't mean he will.I said:
Quote Could you list ONLY ONE of them that makes it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that Jesus and the God he subjects himself to will then rule as “Co-Sovereigns”? Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:18)
I have given you plenty, just look above
No, you haven't given me even one. If you have, then please post that ONE again. ONLY ONE, and then we'll discuss that ONE scripture, and see if it really says what you claim it does.mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,08:51) Hi t8 Quote (t8 @ Feb. 11 2011,03:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:16) Really? So let me see… Adam = One man
adam = all men
God = One God
god = all gods
Adam (The Man – identity)adam (man/human nature – qualitatively speaking)
Please explain how “Qualitatively” adam has less man/human – nature than “Adam”.Quote (t8 @ Feb. 11 2011,03:45) God (The God – identity) god (divine nature/divine office – qualitatively speaking)
Then please explain how Jesus who is God qualitatively is less divine in nature than “God”?WJ
Keith,Why is it that t8 can't own up to his inconsistencies?
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 14 2011,16:32) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:19) Hi Mike Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)
So where are we now, Keith? The explanations of your “NO” answer didn't pan out, did they? So my question remains, but I'll restate it for you now:1 Corinthians 15 NIV
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father……..Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ……..the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.Keith, based on the words of the above scripture, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God?
No the scripture doesn’t say “he will turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? The scriptures say “His (Jesus) Kingdom and dominion is forever“.Nowhere does it say he will cease to be “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” in his Kingdom does it Mike?
Nowhere does it say he will not have “Sovereign rule” with the Father does it Mike?
Nowhere does the scriptures say the Father will remove Jesus out of the “Throne of God” does it Mike?
Mike do you have a scripture that says Jesus will be less “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” or have less authority and power in “His” and “the Fathers” Kingdom?
Will all things still belong to Jesus or not?
WJ
Keith,At least Mike admits that jesus is sovereign NOW. Seeing that Mike lives NOW, then Jesus is MIKE'S Sovereign Ruler!
Jack
Hi JackTrue. Mike has also disproved his own argument that someone being at the right hand of someone else does not mean that the one who is at the right hand of the other is “inferior” because the scriptures say YHVH was at David's right hand and we know that YHVH was not inferior to David.
Burn down that straw man!
WJ
Hi t8
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2011,17:55) He is the originator of that nature or the prototype. His offspring inherit that nature through him.
As far as less or more of that nature is concerned, my answer is that this is not the issue.
Of course it isn't the issue with you because to answer the question honestly you have to agree that Jesus is no less in nature than God the Father. You would have to admit that Jesus is in nature everything the Father is which can only mean that he is God.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10) It makes no difference if we are equal or less in that nature because the issue is that only he is Adam in identity and likewise only the Father is God in identity.
Ha Ha. 'God' is a title of a metaphysical being.So if I identify a “dog” as a “dog” then he is not really a “dog” because he is not the “original” dog? Nice spin and play on words.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10) In nature or in a qualitative way, there are a lot more that can be called man/adam or god/theos.
Jesus is the “Only Begotten Son of God” so is the term Son of God “antithetical” to the term God?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10) This is the point. It should have been understood by you long ago as I have repeated it more times than I can remember and in many different ways too.
Your view is confusing t8 because you do not know “what” Jesus is. You do not claim he is God, yet you do not claim he is merely human. So is he a demi-god or some sort of half breed like half man and half God, which is it?I know your response will be he is the “Son of God”, but you have failed to show us how the Son of a Father is “identified” as less human than the Father or how the “Only Begotten Son of God” is “identified” as less God than the Father.
Remember, Jesus is the “Only Begotten Son of God, so there are no others totally like him is there?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2011,03:28) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 14 2011,16:32) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:19) Hi Mike Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)
So where are we now, Keith? The explanations of your “NO” answer didn't pan out, did they? So my question remains, but I'll restate it for you now:1 Corinthians 15 NIV
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father……..Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ……..the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.Keith, based on the words of the above scripture, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God?
No the scripture doesn’t say “he will turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? The scriptures say “His (Jesus) Kingdom and dominion is forever“.Nowhere does it say he will cease to be “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” in his Kingdom does it Mike?
Nowhere does it say he will not have “Sovereign rule” with the Father does it Mike?
Nowhere does the scriptures say the Father will remove Jesus out of the “Throne of God” does it Mike?
Mike do you have a scripture that says Jesus will be less “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” or have less authority and power in “His” and “the Fathers” Kingdom?
Will all things still belong to Jesus or not?
WJ
Keith,At least Mike admits that jesus is sovereign NOW. Seeing that Mike lives NOW, then Jesus is MIKE'S Sovereign Ruler!
Jack
Hi JackTrue. Mike has also disproved his own argument that someone being at the right hand of someone else does not mean that the one who is at the right hand of the other is “inferior” because the scriptures say YHVH was at David's right hand and we know that YHVH was not inferior to David.
Burn down that straw man!
WJ
Hi t8
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2011,17:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,08:51) Then please explain how Jesus who is God qualitatively is less divine in nature than “God”?
You can answer your own question by answering this.
So does this mean that you should be censored for not answering my question?Does this example that you just set mean that anyone can answer questions with questions?
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2011,17:56) How are we less divine in nature if we can partake in it?
Because we share the nature with Jesus for it is in his “image” (or Gods) that we are being changed into.But we will never share all the attributes and characteristics of God will we?
Will we be “Omnipresent” or “Omnipotent”? Jesus is!
Will we ever be “The Light” that lights everyman? Jesus is!
Will we ever be the “Eternal Life”? Jesus is!
Will we ever be the exact representation of his essence? Jesus is!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2011,04:05) Hi t8 Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2011,17:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,08:51) Then please explain how Jesus who is God qualitatively is less divine in nature than “God”?
You can answer your own question by answering this.
So does this mean that you should be censored for not answering my question?Does this example that you just set mean that anyone can answer questions with questions?
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2011,17:56) How are we less divine in nature if we can partake in it?
Because we share the nature with Jesus for it is in his “image” (or Gods) that we are being changed into.But we will never share all the attributes and characteristics of God will we?
Will we be “Omnipresent” or “Omnipotent”? Jesus is!
Will we ever be “The Light” that lights everyman? Jesus is!
Will we ever be the “Eternal Life”? Jesus is!
Will we ever be the exact representation of his essence? Jesus is!
WJ
Keith,t8 knows he cannot answer it. Jesus cannot be God qualitatively without being God anymore than I can be man qualitatively without being man.
t8 should just deny that Christ is God qualitatively.
Jack
Hi Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
You mean scriptures like John 1:1 or Matt 28:19? Why don’t you acknowledge the obvious meaning of John 1:1 which 99% of the scholarly world accepts, without inferring words or your own interpretation?
Hi Keith,What is OBVIOUS about 1:1 is that we know from Rev that Jesus is the Word OF God, so therefore not the God he is the Word OF.
What is obvious is that you are in denial and living in a little world of your own, because if John 1:1 could have been translated that way it would have been by the cream of Greek scholarship, but we do not find any of the major translations rendering the verse as…“In the beginning was the “Word of God” and the “Word of God” was with God and the “Word of God” was God”, do we?
Jesus merely has the name “The word of God” because he only speaks the Word of God and not because he is the “spoken Word of God”.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19:15
That sharp sword is the “Word of God” proceeding out of Jesus mouth. Eph 6:17 – Heb 4:12
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) Also, we know that the being of God cannot possibly be said to be WITH the being of God.
You mean like God with “a god”? Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) A sane person does not say, “Mike was WITH Mike, and WAS Mike”.
What are you saying Mike, that John was insane for saying the Word that was with God was God? Are you saying that all the translators of the major translations are insane. No it is insane to deny the truth that stares you in the face.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) For any one thing to be WITH a thing, it is common sense that there are two things involved. But if you want to discuss 1:1 further, let's do it in the “John 1:1-3” thread that I believe Nick Hassan started. I've already got some info there to start with.
Trinitarians do not deny that there are two persons in John 1:1 that were with each other. We believe that the term God identifies the 2 persons as One. But you have to deny this and add words or your own translation and change the text.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) As far as 28:19, what is there to say? IF the scripture is REAL, which is unlikely simply because no one in scripture ever baptized with this formula, it still says nothing about a plural
You lose because you claim corruption in the text with no proof which proves that you must think it is speaking of a Trinity.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) I recently watched something on Youtube which quoted the words of a Catholic Pope saying that the Catholic Church changed that verse from “in my name” to what it says now.
No Mike. The Catholic Pope didn’t change the text but only changed the formula of how they baptized.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2011,18:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,06:01)
I don’t see the words “Jesus will eventually turn this “SOVEREIGN” reign he has been given by his God back over to his God”. Do you?It says he will hand over the Kingdom to God the Father….
Think Keith. If you agree that “Sovereign” implies the ONE who is the highest, then it cannot possibly be used to refer to one who has SUBJECTED HIMSELF TO ANOTHER, can it? (Please answer this.)
No you should think Mike. You said…Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27) Because 1 Cor 15 is very specific about “God Himself” “regaining the Sovereign Reign from Jesus.” And “God Himself” will be “all in all”.
If Jesus has “Sovereign rule” then that “implies he is the “ONE” who is the “highest” authority and power, like you said. Jesus is ‘Sovereign Ruler” right now and is not subject to the Father but does that mean the Father is inferior to Jesus? Burn that straw man down!WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 15 2011,15:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2011,04:05) Hi t8 Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2011,17:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 15 2011,08:51) Then please explain how Jesus who is God qualitatively is less divine in nature than “God”?
You can answer your own question by answering this.
So does this mean that you should be censored for not answering my question?Does this example that you just set mean that anyone can answer questions with questions?
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2011,17:56) How are we less divine in nature if we can partake in it?
Because we share the nature with Jesus for it is in his “image” (or Gods) that we are being changed into.But we will never share all the attributes and characteristics of God will we?
Will we be “Omnipresent” or “Omnipotent”? Jesus is!
Will we ever be “The Light” that lights everyman? Jesus is!
Will we ever be the “Eternal Life”? Jesus is!
Will we ever be the exact representation of his essence? Jesus is!
WJ
Keith,t8 knows he cannot answer it. Jesus cannot be God qualitatively without being God anymore than I can be man qualitatively without being man.
t8 should just deny that Christ is God qualitatively.
Jack
Hi JackTrue again. They create all these straw man arguments, but we will keep blowing them down.
BTW do you have a funny face or something showing a strawman burning?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2011,03:51) Of course it isn't the issue with you because to answer the question honestly you have to agree that Jesus is no less in nature than God the Father. You would have to admit that Jesus is in nature everything the Father is which can only mean that he is God.
WJ, have you not read where I have posted many times that Jesus existed with divine nature/form of God.My point still stands and that is it makes no difference if Jesus has equal divine nature or not. The difference is not theos in quality but theos in identity.
How many times does that point need to be drummed into your head only for you to ask the same question, which still has the same answer.
It would be wise for you accept my answer and challenge it rather, than trying to change my answer. My answer is final, unless you can show otherwise.
Same goes for you too Kangaroo. Please read my answer and challenge that, rather than trying to change my answer into Jesus has less divine nature than the Father. I haven't even brought this point up, so it is a non-issue at best or a diversionary tactic at worst.
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