Mikeboll64 vs francis

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 10 2011,04:12)

Well, somebody has to be The All in all because God can't be until Jesus freely gives back the kingdom. Paul was clear that God becomes The All in all on the condition that Jesus freely delivers the kingdom to the Father.

In the meantime Jesus is The All in all (Colossians 3:11). BTW, the Corinthian passage says that God will be “THE All in all” meaning that the God will become The All who is in all people. The Colossians passage says that “Christ, is THE ALL in all who is presently in all people.

The second “all” in both passages refers to those in whom the subject resides.

God will be THE All in all (people)

Christ is THE All in all (people)

Jack

Good to see that you acknowledge God and Jesus as 2 different persons as you should.

Quote

Pity you don't preach that elsewhere.

In case you had any doubt, I quote a part of that scripture which is a clincher for Jesus not being God.

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

See that. Pretty clear isn't it? You are without excuse now.

As for being in all. Jesus taught that we can be one with each other just as God and Jesus are one. In fact he also said that we can be one with God and Jesus. This is summed up in one word, UNITY.

Not BINITY, TRINITY, or QUADRINITY.

February 10, 2011 at 2:27 am#235810

Blocked

Hi Keith,

You did not even answer my #1 question. You circled all around it with nonsense and untruths. You diverted and asked loaded and slanted questions……..which I ignored last night simply because they are unscriptural. You did the same thing with all 11 of my questions. That's why I responded only to your response of question #1 last night. And as much as I want to take you to task on the other 10 questions, I will not do so until we have resolved the very first one.

And even though YOU didn't even answer MY question, I will address each one of your questions and points this one time, just to prove to you that I'm well aware of how you do things.

My #1 question:

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04)

1. Keith, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? (1 Corinthians 15:28)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,02:14)

Mike, do you understand that right now Jesus is “SOVEREIGN”?

Keith, did this question of yours actually ANSWER my question? NO! But to answer YOUR question: NO. Jesus is NOT Sovereign right now. God is Sovereign, and always has been and always will be. That being said, what we have here is a case where the Sovereign One has turned over the Sovereign RULE to His Son for a time. Jesus currently rules “in the strength and name of YHVH, his God”, just like Micah 5:4 clearly foretold that he would. And in doing so, the RULE of Jesus is the Soverign RULE right now. But Jesus' God remains the Sovereign BEING, not His SERVANT, Jesus.

Consider Joseph and Pharaoh once more: Pharaoh gave his signet ring to Joseph and put him in charge of all matters concerning the welfare of Egypt. And Joseph ruled over Egypt and built the storehouses and sold the grain and many other things for the REAL Sovereign of Egypt – Pharaoh.

So the RULE of Joseph was the Sovereign RULE of Egypt at the time……………but ONLY because the REAL (human) Sovereign of Egypt LET JOSEPH REIGN SUPREME for a time.

Listen Keith, I know your “answer” to what I just wrote will be to ask more loaded diversion questions like, “Did Joseph sit in the Pharaoh's throne?” These loaded diversion questions never actually ADDRESS my points – and I'm tired of you discussing issues in this manner. Either MAN UP AND ACTUALLY AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT I POSTED AND ADDRESS IT, or bugger off.

Because what I just explained to you is the way the SCRIPTURES explain the Sovereign Reign of Jesus right now:
1. God put everything under His Son.
2. Jesus, ruling IN THE STRENGTH AND NAME of his Father and God, will destroy all the enemies that his God has placed at his feet.
3. After they have been destroyed, Jesus will turn the Sovereign Reign back over to his God, and then his God will begin to reign DIRECTLY again, and will be all in all.

God will have subordinate rulers, similar to military ranks. And the rule of Jesus will last forever…………..but it will no longer be the SOVEREIGN RULE. He will rule as a prince UNDER the rule of his God. And others, like the Apostles, will rule as princes UNDER Jesus, and therefore also UNDER Jesus' God. And so on down the line.

Keith, show me ONE SINGLE THING that I just posted that is SCRIPTURALLY inaccurate. And if you can't, then just acknowledge it and move on. Do you hear me? I don't want to see, “I and the Father are one”, or “in him all things consist”, because these have nothing to do with the SCRIPTURAL explanation I just posted.

Again, either show me FROM SCRIPTURE that something I just posted above is actually INCORRECT, or accept it and let's move on.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,02:14)

Also do you know that the Father is not going to take back what he has given his “Only Begotten Son”?

Once again, you didn't actually answer MY question with this response, did you?

The Father does not have to “take back” the Sovereign Reign, Keith. The scriptures clearly teach us that Jesus will HAND IT BACK OVER TO HIM after the enemies have been destroyed. If Jesus' “SOVEREIGN REIGN” was a “forever gift”, then there would be no scripture clearly detailing that the Son will give that reign back and subject himself to the Sovereign Reign of his own God. But there IS a scripture that clearly says this, isn't there?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,02:14)

Jesus is going to give the Kingdom back to the Father so that he and the Father will share that rule as one and be all in all. Jesus is currently “all in all” and all is in his hands.

And again, you didn't actually answer MY question with this, did you?

I made a long post explaining these two points last night, for I thought them to be the only two points of your whole post worth addressing.

Let me briefly address the first one again: If you understand “shared rule” as in God is KING, and Jesus rules along with his God as PRINCE, then I can agree with this. And if I take “as one” to mean “one in purpose and will”, then I agree. But I don't think you mean either of those things, do you? I think what you mean is that Jesus and God are both God, and therefore the combined persons of Jesus/God in a Godhead will be all in all. And if THAT'S what you mean, then I only say……….prove that assumption SCRIPTURALLY. Because 1 Cor 15 is very specific about “God Himself” regaining the Sovereign Reign from Jesus. And “God Himself” will be “all in all”. It does NOT say God Himself AND Jesus will be “all in all”, does it, Keith?

So Keith, can you show me the actual words of SCRIPTURE that clearly teach us all what you've claimed above? Or is it simply YOUR conjecture?

As far as your second point: Col 3 is teaching that Christ is all that is needed for salvation, whether you are Greek, Jew, Gentile…………etc, etc. And it is saying that Jesus is in all believers, whether they be Greek or Jew or Gentile, ect, ect.

It is neither the same word phrase used in 1 Cor 15, nor is it said within the same dynamic or context. So unless you have a scripture that CLEARLY demonstrates that Christ, a SERVANT OF HIS GOD, is “all in all” in the same way God will be “all in all” later, then this is another inaccurate statement from you that again didn't actually answer MY question.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,02:14)

But concerning the Kingdom, do you think Jesus will not remain the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

Again, MY question is not answered, but the answer to YOUR question is “ABSOLUTELY”. Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords forever. But he never was and never will be “God of gods”,
will he? Which is higher? And who does the scriptures say exalted Jesus to his high position in the first place? Who is it that gave him a name above all other names? Hint: The same God that installed him on Zion as King of kings and Lord of lords. Jesus' rule will be forever, but it will be as a Prince to YHVH, the King OF the King of kings.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,02:14)

Is Jesus Kingdom and Kingship forever or not?

Does this one answer MY question yet? Nope. But the answer to YOUR question is “YES”. Just like the Davidic Reign will never end. But that doesn't mean Jesus is God anymore than it would mean David is God, right? I don't imagine the rule of the Apostles will ever end either, do you? Does that make THEM God too?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,02:14)

Will Jesus ever cease to be King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

These are your last words of the post…………..surely THEY answer MY question, right? NOPE. But again, I'll answer YOUR question anyway. The answer is “NO”. Does that mean Jesus is his own God? If it does, please scripturally show me how.

Okay Keith, now I'm done with this kind of game. What you've done is avoided MY question and sneaked in many of your own…………NONE OF WHICH say anything at all regarding Jesus being God Almighty. Do you now KNOW that I'm well aware of how YOU do things? Have I proved my point? I can answer any and every single question you ask me. And I can SCRIPTURALLY do it every time and SCRIPTURALLY show you how not one single point you made even IMPLIES that Jesus is God Almighty, let alone makes it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that Jesus is God Almighty.

But this is how you do things. You and Jack both. And you both have been doing this forever on HN. Why can't you stand and defend your doctrine in the face of scripture? Why must you almost always give a “non-answer” to MY questions while diverting the entire issue with many loaded questions of your own?

And then you post how you answered MY question, but I just don't like the answer so I keep asking it. But does this post make it clear to you why I often have to ask and ask the same question?

Keith, I'm going to ask my question one more time to you. Try to actually ANSWER it this time, okay? And when I'm done with this post, I'm going to redirect the 1 Cor 15 post I made last night right back at you again. Because I caught a glance at the slippery way you blew those many points off, too. That post deals with my FIRST question of the 11 I asked you. And instead of moving on to your “answer” of my SECOND question, I'm right here typing for hours, answering all of YOUR questions, just to show you how you DIDN'T even answer my very FIRST question.

And by the way, I WILL address any point that you bring up again, like I said. But POINT does not have an “s” at the end of it. What you've done is simply repost many whole posts. And I WILL get to those posts, because I'm disappointed in how my questions were “answered” anyway. So I was already going to hit each question one at a time until you actually ADDRESS the points.

But right now, this post and my following post are addressing question #1. Let's see if you can even get through the first question, okay? Here it is again:

1. Keith, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? (1 Corinthians 15:28)

Subpoints you need to SCRIPTURALLY address:
a. Do you acknowledge that it is only the REIGN of Jesus that is Sovereign right now?
1. Do you understand that the scriptures teach of One who is OVER Jesus even to this day? And therefore, Jesus cannot possibly BE the Sovereign if there is One who is OVER him. But he can rule in that One's stead, making his REIGN Sovereign, even though he himself is not the Sovereign Being in existence.

b. Do you understand that Jesus has been GIVEN this reign in the first place by his God?
1. It is his God who GRANTED him to sit in HIS throne with Him.
2. It is his God who exalted him to his high position.
3. It is his God who has set His King on Zion.
4. Jesus is King only because his God has willed this to be. Just like Jesus told Pilate: “You would have no power over me if it were not GIVEN to you from above.”

c. Jesus DOES have a God of his own. He says that his God is the same God as we have. He calls him “MY God” to this day.

d. And finally, the SCRIPTURES say that Jesus will hand the Kingdom back to GOD, who is clearly identified in the passage as “God Himself” (not God Themselves), and is clearly identified as someone OTHER THAN Jesus in the same passage.

Keith, please actually SCRIPTURALLY address the bolded question above. You don't have to answer each of the sub-points………….I only included them to further explain to you the actual question I asked and to give you a little scriptural “cliff notes” to remind you what the only possibly answer to my question can SCRIPTURALLY be. Hint, it is a simple YES or NO answer that is needed.

Also, show me ANY PLACE AT ALL in this whole post where I spoke UNSCRIPTURALLY…………..if I did.

peace and love,
mike

February 10, 2011 at 3:13 am#235811

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,04:10)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2011,20:14)

Now if the previous verses explain that “Christ” is NOT “God Himself”

Mike

Which God are you talking about? Are you using the word God here to “identify” the Father? I thought you believed the word “God” does not identify God but only means “Ruler or Leader”?

By your statement above I could say you are talking about Jesus since the scriptures tell us Jesus is God.

But it is context isn't it Mike? Paul is making a distinction between God the Father and Jesus but in no way does it say that Jesus is not God, does it?

Keith,

This post and the previous one are jokes. Please actually ADDRESS the solid, scriptural points I made in the post you are responding to. It is the 4th post down on page 162, in case you (purposely) forgot.

1 Cor 15 explains all that will happen concerning the current Sovereign Reign of Jesus and how he will hand that reign back over to “GOD HIMSELF”. And this is your “answer” to those scriptural facts?

Quote

Which God are you talking about? Are you using the word God here to “identify” the Father? I thought you believed the word “God” does not identify God but only means “Ruler or Leader”?

The WORD “elohim” MEANS “ruler” or “leader”. I have said that the word REFERS to and IDENTIFIES our only true God many times in scripture. This is just more diversion tactics because you simply CAN'T answer the scriptural points I posted.

Quote

By your statement above I could say you are talking about Jesus since the scriptures tell us Jesus is God.

A joke instead of an actual answer? Jesus is IDENTIFIED as someone OTHER THAN the One who is IDENTIFIED as “God Himself” in that passage, Keith. So your joke is lame, and a poor attempt to not answer my points………….once again.

Quote

But it is context isn't it Mike? Paul is making a distinction between God the Father and Jesus but in no way does it say that Jesus is not God, does it?

YES Keith, YES! Paul IS making a distinction between Jesus and the One IDENTIFIED as “GOD HIMSELF”. How in the wide world of sports can one even PRETEND to think that Jesus IS the Being of “GOD HIMSELF” when he is so CLEARLY distinguished as someone OTHER THAN that Being in that passage?

And why do you always assume it's “God the Father” when it says “God”? You do this on John 1:1 also. How do you KNOW it's not “God the Holy Spirit” that is referred to as “God Himself” in 1 Cor 15? Can't you see that just like Jack many times posts in such a way as to suggest he DOES understand that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN God, you do it also? t8 just caught Jack speaking truth and commended him for it a couple of posts back.

And now with YOUR statement, you acknowledge that the LOGICAL part of your brain automatically assumes that when scripture speaks of Jesus and “God”, it is talking about “God the Father”. And that is a great, logical assumption, because the Father is our only, one true God, right? But I always wonder why you never assume it speaks of Jesus and “God the Holy Spirit”.

And finally, I've been wanting to address this issue directly for a while now. Why do you think WE have to show proof that Jesus is NOT God? Jesus is the Son OF God. There has never been any son in the history of the world who was the same being as his father. And although there are hundreds of other “proof texts” WE could post easily, why do we need to?

“Son OF God” is all we really need. If YOU choose to convince us or anyone that a son can be the same being as his father, when there is no evidence of this in scripture or in the history of the world, then the burden of proof is ALWAYS going to be on YOU.

Example:

Is Jesus God? No, he is the Son OF God.
Is Jesus God? No, he is the High Priest OF God.
Is Jesus God? No, he was begotten BY God – who is NOT begotten.
Is Jesus God? No, he is a servant OF God.
Is Jesus God? No, he is the Messiah OF God, who was anointed BY God.
Is Jesus God? No, he died, and God can't possibly die.
Is Jesus God? No, he is the mediator BETWEEN God and mankind.

See Keith? The list goes on and on. That is more than enough proof that Jesus is NOT God right there. If YOU want to claim that any of the perfectly LOGICAL and SCRIPTURAL things I listed above are NOT the way it really is, then it is YOU who must show proof of this, not us.

So your question, “but in no way does it say that Jesus is not God, does it?”, is ridiculous. Because saying that Moses carried the ten commandments down from the mountain also doesn't say that Moses isn't God, does it? But it sure as the gospel doesn't say he IS God either, does it?

Besides Keith, I think when Paul clearly identifies Jesus as someone OTHER THAN “God Himself”, it's a pretty sure bet that it DOES say that Jesus is not God, don't you think?

peace and love…………..and ANSWER my post from page 162, please

mike

February 10, 2011 at 4:20 am#235818

Participant

After seeing that some members are again dodging questions on purpose, I am thinking again that such members should be locked out the Scripture & Biblical Doctrine forum as that forum needs to have quality teachers rather than controversial dodgers and promoters of man-made doctrines. Perhaps this can be discuss this further at https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=3403

February 10, 2011 at 10:06 am#235844

SimplyForgiven

Participant

My hands are full as a Judge with a peterist debate on a different forum.
Ill be back when its done.

February 10, 2011 at 8:56 pm#235863

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 09 2011,19:11)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,04:21)

Mike

Not so. Because Jesus is also man. So only men not angels or any other creature can sit in Jesus throne. Revelations tell us that only Jesus shares Gods throne with the Father. Only God could sit in that throne.

Do the scriptures say that anyone but Jesus sits in the Throne of God?

So your point is a moot point.

Get it?

Here is the simple logic which you cannot argue against.

You say that Jesus is God because he sits with the Father on his throne. So why don't you say that we are Jesus if we can sit with him on his throne.

Well it is real simple. So listen close t8. The word “God” is a title, the word “Jesus” is a name.

God may or may not describe the Father or Jesus. But Jesus identifys the person Jesus.

Do you see how you switched the words around in your example with the question?

If you are honest with your comparison then you would say…

“You say that Jesus is God because he sits with the Father on his throne. So why don't you say that we are “human” if we can sit with him on his throne?”

Whatever Jesus is as a glorified man in his throne we will be.

Likewise whatever God the Father is in his throne Jesus is.

God is a title of a metaphysical being. Human is a title of a metaphysical being. You do understand this don't you t8?

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 09 2011,19:11)

Now I invite you again to read the word “God: in scripture as “Trinity” as you teach that God is the Trinity.

Now watch hundreds of scriptures break.

e.g., The Trinity so loved the world that the Trinity gave HIS only begotten son …

What a weak and foolish example. Any body can change words in the text and it would be untrue. So what have you proved?

For example try putting the word “Father” wherever you see the word God. And it would look like this…

In the beginnig was the Word and the Word was with Father and the Word was Father.

Of course the scriptures break when you change the text.

February 10, 2011 at 9:16 pm#235864

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 09 2011,19:25)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,03:01)

In what sense are you “qualitatively” less human than your human Father?

Now ask yourself why Adam is identified as one man, and adam as all men. When you can comprehend that, then you have understood the difference between quality and identity. Then understand how the word Theos and Elohim is also applied in scripture in the same way.

Really? So let me see…

Adam = One man

adam = all men

God = One God

god = all gods

So then is Jesus part of the “all gods”? If so how is he the “Only Begotten Son”?

Tell us t8, is Jesus in the “One God” category or is he in the “all gods” category?

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 09 2011,19:25)

Obviously context and definite articles play a big part in how it is used and applied whether qualitatively or as an identifier.

Depending on you own bias right?

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 09 2011,19:25)

We believe in one God the Father because we believe that in identity there is only one God. Qualitatively speaking we also acknowledge the reality of other uses for theos in scripture that refer not to the Most High God, but for a number of other reasons.

And qualitatively there is no difference in the Father and Jesus is there? Is he the “Only Begotten Son” or not? If so how can he be qualitatively different from the Father?

t8 is adam “qualitatively” less or different than “Adam”?

If so then we are less human than he was right?

February 10, 2011 at 9:39 pm#235866

Participant

Mike

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

Hi Keith,

You did not even answer my #1 question. You circled all around it with nonsense and untruths.

Funny, that’s what we believe you do all the time. You completely skipped over my questions. Just because you don’t like my answer does not mean it isn’t an answer or it is nonsense does it? Do we have to answer your questions in the way “you would answer it”? Before we can move on do we have to agree with you?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

You diverted and asked loaded and slanted questions……..which I ignored last night simply because they are unscriptural.

It sounds like you are the one that diverted and didn’t answer questions. Doesn’t what you think is an unscriptural question deserve a scriptural answer?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

You did the same thing with all 11 of my questions. That's why I responded only to your response of question #1 last night. And as much as I want to take you to task on the other 10 questions, I will not do so until we have resolved the very first one.

Yea the same ole tactics and diversions is that we must resolve your one point or we can’t move forward. The thing is we can never resolve your question or point unless we agree with you so that means for eternity you will use that as an excuse for not answering our questions.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

And even though YOU didn't even answer MY question, I will address each one of your questions and points this one time, just to prove to you that I'm well aware of how you do things.

Man you are out there in your own little land where you cannot see past your own face. I checked but didn't see you had answered all of them.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

My #1 question:
1. Keith, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? (1 Corinthians 15:28)

And this was my answer..

“Mike, do you understand that right now Jesus is “SOVEREIGN”? Also do you know that the Father is not going to take back what he has given his “Only Begotten Son”? Jesus is going to give the Kingdom back to the Father so that he and the Father will share that rule as one and be all in all. Jesus is currently “all in all” and all is in his hands.

But concerning the Kingdom, do you think Jesus will not remain the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. “Of the increase of his government and peace THERE SHALL BE NO END”, upon the throne of David, and upon “HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth “even for ever”. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isa 9:6, 7

The answer is an obvious “No” because Jesus will be Sovereign King with the Father forever because he will still be sitting in the throne of God forever and it will still be “His Kingdom” which means that he will still be “Sovereign” in it. He will simply be subjecting himself and the Kingdom back to the Father that they can rule together.

That is scriptural and takes all scriptures into account.

Mike will the Father take back from Jesus all that he gave him?

Can you show me an example where an heir of the throne did not possess the same sovereign power and rule as his Father?

February 10, 2011 at 10:59 pm#235868

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,02:14)

Mike, do you understand that right now Jesus is “SOVEREIGN”?

Keith, did this question of yours actually ANSWER my question? NO! But to answer YOUR question: NO. Jesus is NOT Sovereign right now. God is Sovereign, and always has been and always will be.

Hi Mike

Can you prove that scripturally? Because right now Jesus has all authority and power! And he has not even subjected himself to the Father since his ascension.

Is Jesus subject to the Father at this time?

If he is then what will he subject to the Father when the last enemy is destroyed which is death?

So please explain again how Jesus is not “Sovereign”?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

And in doing so, the RULE of Jesus is the Soverign RULE right now. But Jesus' God remains the Sovereign BEING, not His SERVANT, Jesus.

Please explain how someone can have “Sovereign” rule and not be “Sovereign”?

Is there a scripture that says the Father will take the “Sovereign” rule from Jesus?

If Jesus is still going to be The King of his Kingdom then he has to be “Sovereign”.

Can you give me an example where a King in scriptures was not “Sovereign” over his own Kingdom?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

So the RULE of Joseph was the Sovereign RULE of Egypt at the time……………but ONLY because the REAL (human) Sovereign of Egypt LET JOSEPH REIGN SUPREME for a time.

This is real weak Mike. Joseph was not the Pharaohs Son was he? And yes Joseph didn’t sit in the Throne of Pharaoh, so Joseph was not “Sovereign”.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

I feel your frustration Mike. Because I would be frustrated if my example did not match what I was trying to prove even though I want it to so bad. You say they are diversions, ha ha.

Was Joseph a Son of Pharaoh? Nope

Jesus is the “Only Begotten Son”.

Did Joseph sit in the Pharaohs throne? Nope

Jesus sits in the Throne of God having all rule and possessing all things as his own.

So your comparison is not a good one is it?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

Because what I just explained to you is the way the SCRIPTURES explain the Sovereign Reign of Jesus right now:
1. God put everything under His Son.

No God gave everything to his Son which means everything is under him, and that he Jesus is “Sovereign”!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

2. Jesus, ruling IN THE STRENGTH AND NAME of his Father and God, will destroy all the enemies that his God has placed at his feet.

Don’t forget…
For he (Jesus) must reign, till he (Jesus) hath put all enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15:25

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

3. After they have been destroyed, Jesus will turn the Sovereign Reign back over to his God, and then his God will begin to reign DIRECTLY again, and will be all in all.

So does this mean that Jesus will lose his Kingdom and authority and power that the Father has given him?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

Keith, show me ONE SINGLE THING that I just posted that is SCRIPTURALLY inaccurate.

Pretty close, but what you just said still does not prove that Jesus is not God in nature just as the Father. Jesus willingly gives the Father back the Kingdom that God may be all in, not meaning that he will not rule as he is now. What kind of sense would that make?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

And if you can't, then just acknowledge it and move on. Do you hear me? I don't want to see, “I and the Father are one”, or “in him all things consist”, because these have nothing to do with the SCRIPTURAL explanation I just posted.

Of course you don’t want to see those scriptures because they explain the Trinitarian view and are true. If by Jesus all things consist then that also means he is “Sovereign” and all in all. You do get this don’t you Mike?

February 10, 2011 at 11:55 pm#235869

Participant

Hi Mike

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

Let me briefly address the first one again: If you understand “shared rule” as in God is KING, and Jesus rules along with his God as PRINCE, then I can agree with this.

But the scriptures do not teach that do they? They say that Jesus is sitting in the Throne of God and ruling as God. But some how you think the Father is going to kick Jesus out of the throne and he will not be sovereign any more.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

And if I take “as one” to mean “one in purpose and will”, then I agree. But I don't think you mean either of those things, do you?

No I believe those things but I don’t think you do. Because for two persons to be totally perfect in “purpose and will” would mean they are identical in every way, right?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

I think what you mean is that Jesus and God are both God, and therefore the combined persons of Jesus/God in a Godhead will be all in all.

Yep!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

And if THAT'S what you mean, then I only say……….prove that assumption SCRIPTURALLY.

You don’t want proof. If you did then you would see that there is no disparity in the nature of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God in scriptures.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

Because 1 Cor 15 is very specific about “God Himself” regaining the Sovereign Reign from Jesus. And “God Himself” will be “all in all”.

Wow! The Father has to regain “Sovereign” rule from Jesus? Are you hearing yourself?

Anyway it doesn’t say “God himself” will be all in all does it Mike?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

It does NOT say God Himself AND Jesus will be “all in all”, does it, Keith?

No, it doesn’t say “God himself” will be all in all does it Mike? But the scriptures do tell us that the Father and Jesus are sitting in the throne and the river of living water is flowing out of it. There is no scripture that says Jesus will no longer sit in the “Throne of God” is there Mike? His Kingdom and dominion is forever, remember?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

So what does it mean for the Father to be all in all? Will Jesus cease to be in all in that day or will he be all in all like the Father?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,02:14)

But concerning the Kingdom, do you think Jesus will not remain the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

Again, MY question is not answered, but the answer to YOUR question is “ABSOLUTELY”. Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords forever.

Thanks! But could you explain then how he will be less King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,02:14)

Is Jesus Kingdom and Kingship forever or not?
Does this one answer MY question yet? Nope. But the answer to YOUR question is “YES”.

Good. Then can you explain how he will be less a King of his Kingdom since you say he will not be “Sovereign” over his Kingdom?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

Just like the Davidic Reign will never end. But that doesn't mean Jesus is God anymore than it would mean David is God, right?

But David isn’t or never has sit in the “Throne of God” in heaven has he?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 10 2011,02:14)

Will Jesus ever cease to be King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
These are your last words of the post…………..surely THEY answer MY question, right? NOPE. But again, I'll answer YOUR question anyway. The answer is “NO”. Does that mean Jesus is his own God? If it does, please scripturally show me how.

It sure doesn’t mean he is not God. That is the problem. You cannot find any likeness or attribute of the Father that Jesus is not. So it seems it is a problem for you to disprove Jesus Deity when he is called “My Lord and My God” in scriptures and throughout the ages by millions. You think you can disprove 2000 years of scriptural teaching and scholarship.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

But right now, this post and my following post are addressing question #1. Let's see if you can even get through the first question, okay? Here it is again:

1. Keith, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? (1 Corinthians 15:28)

No the scriptures do not tell us that Jesus will “eventually turn over his “Sovereign” reign”.

It says that he will subject the Kingdom back to the Father yet they tell us it is still his Kingdom and his dominion forever.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

Subpoints you need to SCRIPTURALLY address:
a. Do you acknowledge that it is only the REIGN of Jesus that is Sovereign right now?

No, because one cannot reign Sovereign unless he is Sovereign! Where do you get these Ideas that someone can not be Sovereign and yet reign as sovereign? If he reigns as “Sovereign” then that means to everyone he reigns over he is “Sovereign”.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

1. Do you understand that the scriptures teach of One who is OVER Jesus even to this day?

No the scriptures say Jesus is in the Throne and beside the Father, not under him or above him. Remember the scriptures say he hasn’t willingly subjected himself or the Kingdom to the Father yet.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

And therefore, Jesus cannot possibly BE the Sovereign if there is One who is OVER him. But he can rule in that One's stead, making his REIGN Sovereign, even though he himself is not the Sovereign Being in existence.

Prove that one ruling “Sovereign” is not “Sovereign”.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

b. Do you understand that Jesus has been GIVEN this reign in the first place by his God?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

1. It is his God who GRANTED him to sit in HIS throne with Him.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

2. It is his God who exalted him to his high position.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

3. It is his God who has set His King on Zion.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

4. Jesus is King only because his God has willed this to be. Just like Jesus told Pilate: “You would have no power over me if it were not GIVEN to you from above.”

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

c. Jesus DOES have a God of his own. He says that his God is the same God as we have. He calls him “MY God” to this day.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

Yea, after he emptied himself and came in the likeness of sinful flesh. But before that he already had it all because nothing came into being without the Word (Jesus) that was with God (Father) and was God (Jesus). The Kingdom will be his forever for the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit will rule forever as one God.

February 10, 2011 at 11:57 pm#235870

Participant

Mike

Can you answer these questions now…?

Is Jesus the “Author of Eternal Salvation” or not?

Is Jesus the Way, the Truth and The Life or not?

Is Jesus the “Author and finisher of our faith” or not?

Does everything consist by Jesus or not?

Did anything come into being without him or not?

Is Jesus the “Eternal Life” or not?

Is all things upheld by the word of his power or not?

Does he send us the Holy Spirit or not?

Is Jesus anything to you but just a tiny little servant who is merely an empty shell that God works through?

Now after you truthfully answer these you should never say again that Jesus is not “the source” of anything should you?

He is the source of everything you receive from God because you can only receive it by or through him!

Mike these are easy questions to answer so hopefully you won't pull this “Lets deal with one point at a time” trick.

February 11, 2011 at 1:10 am#235872

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:39)

Just because you don’t like my answer does not mean it isn’t an answer or it is nonsense does it? Do we have to answer your questions in the way “you would answer it”? Before we can move on do we have to agree with you?

We don't have to agree on every interpretation of scripture, Keith. But you DO have to acknowledge what the scriptures say, or else it's like debating with Adam, who only acknowledges the NT scriptures that agree with him, and the rest he dismisses as made up doctrines of Gnosticly biased men who had moved far away from the OT truth.

My question was:

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

1. Keith, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? (1 Corinthians 15:28)

And you have finally actually answered the question:

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:39)

The answer is an obvious “No”

Hmmmmm………….let's check the scripture again:

1 Corinthians 15:24 NIV
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father

It seems your answer goes AGAINST the words of the scripture, Keith. But you did list some explanations, so let's see if they somehow change the actual words inspired by God that I listed above.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:39)

because Jesus will be Sovereign King with the Father forever

But doesn't “Sovereign” imply the ONE who is HIGHEST of all? We can't have TWO “Sovereigns” in the same field, can we? Let's look to the scriptures again:

1 Cor 15:28
……the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

This sounds to me like the Son will be subject TO God. And if the Son is a SUBJECT of the Sovereign of the Kingdom, then he can't possibly BE that same Sovereign he is subject to, can he? Maybe if we read some more of your explanation, the truth will become evident, huh?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:39)

and it will still be “His Kingdom” which means that he will still be “Sovereign” in it.

I agree with the first part, Keith. It will still be Jesus' Kingdom. As it will also be God's Kingdom. As it will also be the same Kingdom Christ conferred on his disciples, right? Just as anyone who lives there can rightfully say, “Welcome to MY Kingdom”, meaning simply that they live there………….much as I have said to friends who came to Phoenix, “Welcome to my city”, or “Welcome to my part of the country”.

But Jesus, the disciples, or even those who live within that Kingdom won't be Sovereign in it, will they? No, they really can't be, because there can only be ONE Sovereign of any Kingdom, right? Plus, we've already read CLEAR and CONCISE scriptural words that say Jesus will subject himself TO the Sovereign of this Kingdom, right?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:39)

He will simply be subjecting himself and the Kingdom back to the Father that they can rule together.

Well, yes……………and no. They WILL rule together over the Kingdom, along with many others who have also been appointed to be rulers. But there is nothing in scripture to imply that Jesus and his God will rule as Co-Sovereigns in this Kingdom, is there?

There ARE scriptures that list Jesus as “Prince” and YHVH as “God” in this coming Kingdom. There ARE scriptures that say Jesus will rule “in the strength and name of YHVH, his God”. But I don't know of any that list them as equal “Co-Sovereigns” of this coming Kingdom…………..do you?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:39)

That is scriptural and takes all scriptures into account.

Well, that may be, but apparently YOU know of scriptures that I don't. Could you list ONLY ONE of them that makes it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that Jesus and the God he subjects himself to will then rule as “Co-Sovereigns”?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:39)

Mike will the Father take back from Jesus all that he gave him?

I don't believe so, Keith. God gave His Son all power and authority to rule in His strength and name until certain enemies have been destroyed. It is not said he will have this position sitting in his God's throne forever, though. In fact, since we know Jesus has a throne of his own, it's a sure bet that he won't stay ruling from the throne of his Father forever……….otherwise he wouldn't need a throne of his own. And also, he would not refer to it as “My Father's Throne”, but instead “OUR Throne”.

But if God gave Jesus a flesh body to do his work on earth, it doesn't mean God took something He gave Jesus back when He transformed his body back into the spiritual body he now has.

Similarly, unless ruling from the throne of his God was something that was promised to last forever, it's not “taking it back” if Jesus leaves that throne at the appointed time, right?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:39)

Can you show me an example where an heir of the throne did not possess the same sovereign power and rule as his Father?

No. But can YOU show ME an example of a human king who lived forever? Let's say David lived forever and ruled as King of Israel forever. Let's say Solomon, instead of being made King of Israel when his father knew death was close, instead just stayed forever as a Prince of Israel. Now let's say David had to leave town for a year, and Solomon was allowed to rule from David's throne for that year. And let's say the words of the story said, “Upon David's return to Israel, Solomon HANDED OV
ER THE KINGDOM TO HIS FATHER, and SUBJECTED HIMSELF TO HIM WHO SET HIM AS KING IN HIS ABSENSE.”

Tell me Keith, would you think by reading those exact words I wrote above that David and Solomon would begin reigning as “Co-Sovereigns”? Or would you LOGICALLY assume that David took back reign as King of Israel, and Solomon returned to his post as a Prince of Israel? I know you wouldn't think that David and Solomon became the same BEING and ruled together ever after, right? No………you only get that wacky when it comes to Jesus.

So where are we now, Keith? The explanations of your “NO” answer didn't pan out, did they? So my question remains, but I'll restate it for you now:

1 Corinthians 15 NIV
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father……..Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ……..the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Keith, based on the words of the above scripture, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God?

peace and love,
mike

February 11, 2011 at 1:44 am#235874

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,09:57)

Mike

Can you answer these questions now…?

Yes Keith, I CAN answer these questions right now, and the 75 points you made on the other posts…………but I WON'T.

And I want so badly to take you to task for things like this:

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011 @ 20:27[/quote)

Jesus DOES have a God of his own. He says that his God is the same God as we have. He calls him “MY God” to this day.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,09:57)

Really Keith? But didn't God exalt Jesus to an even HIGHER POSITION and to even MORE GLORY than he previously had?
So how could he have already been God Almighty, then be exalted to an even HIGHER POSITION than that, and afterwards begin to have someone he calls “MY God”? If he was co-equal God Almighty BEFORE he was exalted even higher, then he would now be ABOVE God Almighty. He would be “God Almighty PLUS”. And how could God Almighty the lessor be able to exalt someone to a position even HE can't attain to?

Pure nonsense, Keith. Just like every one of your points. But even though I WANT to take all of your points to task like I just did to that one, I can't.

This started with a simple SCRIPTURALLY BACKED question from me. Now we have both spent pages on discussing YOUR DIVERSIONS FROM that question. This is how you ALWAYS operate, and I simply won't do it anymore.

I have restated that first question at the end of my previous post. I have made the scriptural words big and bold and blue……..so you can easily see them. I have rephrased the question for you, and the answer is right there in blue above the rephrased question.

I have even addressed your explanations of your answer to the question, and have showed you how they amount to nothing.

It is STILL a YES or NO question. I know you DID actually answer it this time, but I just want confirmation. And since it is only a YES or a NO that you have to repost, would you mind?

peace and love,
mike

February 11, 2011 at 9:45 am#235886

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:16)

Really? So let me see…

Adam = One man

adam = all men

God = One God

god = all gods

Just what we have come to expect from you. Is your way, anyway but the right way?

I will spell it out, then you can repeat it a few times, in the hope that it might sink in and save you from repeating the wrong meaning.

Adam (The Man – identity)

adam (man/human nature – qualitatively speaking)

God (The God – identity)

god (divine nature/divine office – qualitatively speaking)

Remember when I told you the difference between identity and quality/nature?

So instead of adam all men = god all gods. Think adam as mankind/man and then try and figure out theos/god. Think about it qualitatively not numerically. Is it that you lack quality because you cannot grasp any kind of qualitative view. It is written “You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High”. Can you figure that out? We can. But I guess you are forced to say that they were false gods and ignore the sons of the Most High part.

We will see how you go from hence forth. Or are we to expect you to give the wrong impression again? I think the latter given the pattern you have demonstrated over the years. It seems to be in your nature WJ to continually misrepresent. Or is it a case of having ears but not hearing? There has to be an explanation as to why you will say anything as long as it is not the right interpretation. Perhaps to you this is a legitimate way to teach. Misrepresent your opponent and ignore anything that infringes on your view. But to me that shows a dishonest heart. Misrepresentation is what desperate people resort to.

February 11, 2011 at 9:52 am#235887

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,09:57)

Is Jesus the “Author of Eternal Salvation” or not?

Is Jesus the Way, the Truth and The Life or not?

Is Jesus the “Author and finisher of our faith” or not?

Does everything consist by Jesus or not?

Did anything come into being without him or not?

Is Jesus the “Eternal Life” or not?

Is all things upheld by the word of his power or not?

Does he send us the Holy Spirit or not?

Is Jesus anything to you but just a tiny little servant who is merely an empty shell that God works through?

Now after you truthfully answer these you should never say again that Jesus is not “the source” of anything should you?

This is easily answered WJ.

Rather than answer them individually, I will give you a key to answering this. The key is a question. If you can answer it correctly, then you will be able to answer those questions you ask for yourself.

Are we (the righteous) the light of the world?

Yes or no. If yes, then explain why Jesus claimed to be the light of the world. When you are through doing that, then you might have enough understanding to answer your own questions.

February 12, 2011 at 5:43 pm#235933

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,09:57)

Is Jesus the “Author of Eternal Salvation” or not?

Hi Keith,

The Greek word translated by the KJV as “author” is “aitios”. And it means “cause” or “source”. But that is not to mean Jesus is the ULTIMATE source of our salvation. We have discussed “ULTIMATE SOURCE” before, Keith, but consider this:

OUR BELIEF in the words of Jesus could also be called the “aitios” of our salvation.

Jesus himself could be called the same. Or even the death OF Jesus. So could the action of God SENDING his Christ to earth. Or the action of God begetting His Son in the first place. And finally, it is God Almighty who remains as the ULTIMATE SOURCE of our eternal salvation.

So what we have to do is figure out from the context if this passage implies that Jesus is the ONLY and ULTIMATE source of out eternal salvation.

1 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God,
Hebrews 5 starts with a statement that a high priest is someone OTHER THAN God.

4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.

5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”
Here we learn that not only is the high priest someone OTHER THAN God, but that God Himself is the One who bestows the honor on that one who is NOT God. We learn that just as it was when God bestowed that honor on Aaron, it is with Jesus.

7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death,
Now we all know who “the One” who could have saved Jesus from death is, right? That One is God – the same One Jesus offered up prayers to. So far, Jesus is still someone OTHER THAN God.

8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Here, we could almost pretend that Jesus had been “made perfect” and that in some way made him the God he was previously praying to………but it's a big stretch, and one would REALLY have to want it pretty badly.

10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Oh dang! The bubble has been bursted. Because just when we were all hopeful that Jesus had somehow “turned into” God, we are reminded yet again that he is someone OTHER THAN God, who was designated BY GOD to be a priest OF God. God cannot be His own Priest to Himself…….it would simply be illogical and ruin the whole meaning of the word “priest”.

Keith, have I properly explained how being the “source of our eternal salvation” doesn't mean Jesus is God Almighty? Have I at least shown that it doesn't HAVE TO mean this?

And if it doesn't make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that Jesus IS God Almighty, then it is just another “wishful thinking text” which couldn't stand up to even one of the “Jesus is NOT God” points I made a couple of pages ago. And there is no way this statement is actually enough to “override” or “undo” any of those points, so why even bring it up as any kind of “proof” when it CLEARLY isn't?

mike

February 14, 2011 at 1:21 am#235995

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,06:56)

If you are honest with your comparison then you would say…

“You say that Jesus is God because he sits with the Father on his throne. So why don't you say that we are “human” if we can sit with him on his throne?”

Whatever Jesus is as a glorified man in his throne we will be.

Likewise whatever God the Father is in his throne Jesus is.

Keith, you are all over the place on this one. You say Jesus is 100% God, right? And he must be the “BEING of God” to sit on the “BEING of God's” throne, right? And you say he's never going to leave that throne, for he is “God” forever. But then you say he will be only a “glorified man” when he sits with those who overcome on his own throne.

Is part of the being of Jesus “God Almighty”, who sits on the throne of God forever, and the other part of his being is merely a “glorified man” who will sit on his own throne?

Will Jesus be occupying two thrones at the same time………..one as God and one as a glorified man?

No…..you're just digging yourself in deeper here.

What you've stated is that Jesus will sit on God's throne FOREVER. And that ONLY “God” can sit on God's throne.

If that's the case, then the throne those who overcome will sit on will ALSO be “God's throne”, and therefore THEY will ALSO be “God”.

You can't just keep changing things to make them fit whatever circumstance comes up, can you?

And t8's point about switching “God” with “Trinity” is an EXCELLENT point.

In John 3:16, “God” loved the world and sent “HIS” Son. Was Jesus NOT a part of the “God” that sent “His” Son? Which members of “God” sent their Son to earth? Was it ONLY the Father part of “God”? If so, how do you know this? It doesn't actually say, “God the Father” sent His Son, does it?

If Jesus is the Son OF God and also God Himself, then Jesus is the Son of Himself. Because, again, he is NOT called the “Son of God the Father”, but the “Son of GOD”.

Do you see how confusing this gets?

mike

February 14, 2011 at 8:01 pm#236011

Participant

Hi Mike

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:39)

You mean scriptures like John 1:1 or Matt 28:19? Why don’t you acknowledge the obvious meaning of John 1:1 which 99% of the scholarly world accepts, without inferring words or your own interpretation? You want every one to accept your interpretation of certain scriptures and your own “Bias” or else they are wrong and don’t answer your questions.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)

My question was:

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

1. Keith, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? (1 Corinthians 15:28)

And you have finally actually answered the question:

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:39)

The answer is an obvious “No”

Hmmmmm………….let's check the scripture again:

1 Corinthians 15:24 NIV
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father

It seems your answer goes AGAINST the words of the scripture, Keith. But you did list some explanations, so let's see if they somehow change the actual words inspired by God that I listed above.

Really? I don’t see the words “Jesus will eventually turn this “SOVEREIGN” reign he has been given by his God back over to his God”. Do you?

It says he will hand over the Kingdom to God the Father, yet we read…

“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And “to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom”, that all peoples, nations, and languages “should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed”.” Daniel 7:13-14

“And the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.’”Luke 1:30-33

“For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into “the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”.” 2 Peter 1:11

This is called proper Biblical exegesis and not selective theology. Selective theology takes certain scriptures that fit their view while rejecting others that may not agree with their view.

Is there a scripture that says Jesus will no longer have “Sovereign” rule?

Can you prove by scriptures that Jesus will be less “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” in his Kingdom?

Can you prove by scriptures that Jesus will no longer sit in the throne of God with the Father?

February 14, 2011 at 8:10 pm#236012

Participant

Hi Mike

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:39)

because Jesus will be Sovereign King with the Father forever

But doesn't “Sovereign” imply the ONE who is HIGHEST of all?

That is true. So how do you explain that Jesus is “Sovereign”? You said…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

My #1 question:
1. Keith, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? (1 Corinthians 15:28)

Here you say Jesus has “Sovereign reign” and above you said “But doesn't “Sovereign” imply the ONE who is HIGHEST of all?” So does this mean that the Father does not have “Sovereign reign”? You have failed to show us how someone can reign as “Sovereign” and not be “Sovereign” or how somone can be “Sovereign” and not have “Sovereign reign”.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)

We can't have TWO “Sovereigns” in the same field, can we? Let's look to the scriptures again:

1 Cor 15:28
……the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Now you are getting it. You can’t have two beings that has “Sovereign reign” either can you? You have agreed that Jesus has “Sovereign reign” so does that mean the Father does not have “Sovereign reign”? Of course not, because when you began to understand by the Spirit that the Father and Jesus are one then you will understand there aren’t any contradictions in the scriptures for the Trinitarian.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)

This sounds to me like the Son will be subject TO God. And if the Son is a SUBJECT of the Sovereign of the Kingdom, then he can't possibly BE that same Sovereign he is subject to, can he?

Of course he can if he is both man and God which is what the scriptures teach.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)

Maybe if we read some more of your explanation, the truth will become evident, huh?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2011,07:39)

and it will still be “His Kingdom” which means that he will still be “Sovereign” in it.

I agree with the first part, Keith. It will still be Jesus' Kingdom. As it will also be God's Kingdom. As it will also be the same Kingdom Christ conferred on his disciples, right?

I do not see where any scriptures say that we will be as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords or that the scriptures say “All things were made by us and for us”, do you? I do not see where we will sit in God’s throne, do you?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)

Just as anyone who lives there can rightfully say, “Welcome to MY Kingdom”, meaning simply that they live there………….much as I have said to friends who came to Phoenix, “Welcome to my city”, or “Welcome to my part of the country”.

Your analogies are full of spin and lack so much. Yes Mike the USA is my country but that doesn’t mean “I OWN It” or that “I created it” for my good pleasure does it?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)

But Jesus, the disciples, or even those who live within that Kingdom won't be Sovereign in it, will they?

So what you are saying is since Jesus has “Sovereign rule” right now, then the Father cannot have “Sovereign rule’ also? Is the Father not also sitting in his throne having “Sovereign rule”?

I have explained this before. You and your wife can have “Sovereign” control over your bank account. The scriptures say “All things were created by and for Jesus” but they also say…

For of him, and “THROUGH HIM, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rom 11:36

Take your pick Mike because this scripture says all things not only come “from” the Father or Jesus, but also all things come “Through” the Father or Jesus.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)

No, they really can't be, because there can only be ONE Sovereign of any Kingdom, right?

Says who? Then how is Jesus sitting in the Throne of God with “Sovereign rule”, if the Father also sits there? Is the Father not also “Sovereign” in his Throne? Burn that straw man down.

Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and you have already said…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 09 2011,20:27)

Again, MY question is not answered, but the answer to YOUR question is “ABSOLUTELY”. Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords forever.

So we know the Father is also “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” so in what sense will Jesus be less “King of Kings and Lord of Lords”? If he inherited the Kingdom forever then that means he will reign with the Father as “Sovereign” for ever right?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 10 2011,19:10)

Plus, we've already read CLEAR and CONCISE scriptural words that say Jesus will subject himself TO the Sovereign of this Kingdom, right?

Yes the Holy Spirit also subjects himself to Jesus but does that mean Jesus is “Greater” than the Holy Spirit? Your wife subjects herself to you but does that mean she is “inferior” to you?
Paul said submit yourselves to one another but does that make someone inferior to the other because he willingly submits to them? Burn that straw man down.

February 14, 2011 at 8:18 pm#236013