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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,05:51) Why don’t you answer the question… Is David’s right hand equal to the right hand of God if God is at it?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
Absolutely NOT.Job 40:14 NIV
Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you.God was at the right hand of Job all of his life. Apparently, based on the above question that God asked of Job, God being at Job's right hand does not EQUATE TO Job's own right hand being equal to God's.
mike
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,05:51) The problem you have is David didn’t do the works of God but is merely a vice-regent. However Jesus does the works.
Show me the scripture where Jesus did any works ON HIS OWN. Show me where he claimed it was by his OWN power, and NOT by the power of his Father, who was doing the works THROUGH him.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2011,09:02) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 08 2011,02:09) But Joseph DID not do what Pharaohs exact works.
Jesus did the exact works of the Father.
Hi D,So if YOU did the same works as Keith did, would you and Keith be the same identical being?
mike
Joseph was not Pharoah's son was he Mike? Jesus is Son over His own house. In Hebrew culture the son was not a servant.Quote 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over HIS OWN house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Tell me Mike. Was Joseph son over his own house? You guys speak untruths when you compare Jesus with others.
Roo
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 08 2011,07:22) Mikeboll said: Quote If YHVH being at David’s right hand is doing the works then that means that David to everyone else is “equal” to YHVH, unless you are saying they are David’s works and not YHVHs. The word “adonay” means “MY Lord” (God). Are you saying that YHWH is calling Himself, “MY Lord”? Or are you saying that YHWH said to David, “MY Lord at your (David's) right hand…?
This makes no sense at all.
Roo
I don't now where to start with you either, Jack?First, I find it HILARIOUS that you quoted KEITH'S words and commented, “This makes no sense at all”.
Second, according to NETNotes, “adonay” means “lord” while “adoniy” means “my lord”.
Third, you started this whole TWOT adon thing by accusing ME of being deceitful. Your proof of MY deceit was that I did not post a part of TWOT that said,
When 'adon appears in the special plural form, with a first common singular pronominal suffix ('adona[y]), it always refers to God.
Except you didn't post the word “PLURAL” in YOUR version. You called ME “deceitful”, but YOU are the one who left a word out of the quote of TWOT.
And since you didn't even bother to address my post explaining YOUR misunderstanding, I'll give you the “short” version:
TWOT claims that when the plural form of “adon” is used, it ONLY refers to God.
1. This is incorrect, as I have posted TWO scriptures where “adonay” refers to men in most English translations.
2. Their line of reasoning is the same as with the word “elohim”, which incorporates the “plural of majesty”. In other words, they're saying that if the word is plural, then it means “majestic adon”, and therefore ONLY applies to God. But like I said, I've showed two scriptures where this is NOT the case.
3. 110:1 has David calling Jesus “adon”, so nothing special there, right?
4. And in 110:5, the “Adonay” IS God, as you suspect. But David is saying that God is at Jesus' right hand, which means that God is HELPING his servant, Jesus.
Jack, read my last post to Keith. Read the difference in the meanings of “sitting at the right hand of God” and “God at my right hand”.
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 08 2011,08:39) But we know that there is only one throne. David's throne = Christ's throne = the Father's throne
Run for your sanity! We're gaining new members of the “Godhead” by the minute, here!Jack, Jesus has a “MY throne”, while his Father has a “HIS throne”. Look at Rev 3:21.
There are definitely TWO thrones………….which begs the question: Why ONLY two? Aren't there suppose to be THREE members of the “Godhead”?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,09:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,17:02) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 08 2011,02:09) But Joseph DID not do what Pharaohs exact works.
Jesus did the exact works of the Father.
Hi D,So if YOU did the same works as Keith did, would you and Keith be the same identical being?
mike
We Aren't God.But if he did the same works I did he would be equal to me wouldn't he?
WJ
Ahhhhhh…………..and EQUAL TO Keith would also mean he is NOT Keith, right?This is basic common sense, guys. But I was actually wondering at work today how long it would be before one of you brought out the old failsafe, “Well, WE aren't GOD, are we?”
Keith wins the prize. When all else fails, and the trinitarians realize they are getting cornered and they KNOW they can't refute the logic and scriptures being thrown at them, they always have the “Well, WE aren't GOD, are we?” defense!
Mike, it doesn't have to make sense to us that a son can be the same being as his father, because WE AREN'T GOD!
Shimmer, it doesn't have to follow the logic that there can't be a father until there's a son, because WE AREN'T GOD!
Irene, it doesn't have to follow human reasoning that a son ALWAYS comes forth FROM his father, because WE AREN'T GOD!
Pierre, it doesn't have to make sense that Jesus can be the God he is the Son of, because WE AREN'T GOD!
t8, it doesn't have to make sense that God Almighty can have a God of His own, because WE AREN'T GOD!
You “Jesus is God” people are simply precious to me!
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 08 2011,11:39) Jesus is Son over His own house. In Hebrew culture the son was not a servant. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over HIS OWN house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Hi Jack,Let's look at Hebrews 3 a little closer, okay?
1 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest. 2 He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house. 3 Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4 For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. 5 “Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,” bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.
In verse 1, Jesus is called an apostle, which means “one sent forth with orders”. He is also called a priest, which means “a person ordained to act as a mediator between God and man”.
Yet YOU think he's God.
Verse 2 shows that Jesus, like Moses, was faithful to God, who appointed them both.
Verse 3 states that Jesus is more worthy than Moses. I agree.
Verse 4 says that God built everything. Okay, we knew that, right?
Verse 5 says the Moses was faithful as a servant over God's house.
And verse 6 says that Jesus is faithful as Son over God's house.
What's the big deal, Jack? Oh, that the Greek says “his house” instead of “God's house”, like the NIV translates it? Here's what the Trinitarian site NETNotes says about it:
But Christ 1 is faithful as a son over God’s 2 house.
Footnote #2 says,
Heb 3:62tn Grk “his”;
in the translation the referent (God) has been specified for clarity.Have you no limit to the depths to which you will sink? You would really take a “his” that most scholars know to mean “God's”, and try to make that little thing some kind of a proof text?
Come on Jack. Hit us with something SOLID!
(And preferrably for you, something that doesn't CLEARLY identify Jesus as a priest TO his God and an apostle OF his God in the same passage.)
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2011,03:02) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 08 2011,02:09) But Joseph DID not do what Pharaohs exact works.
Jesus did the exact works of the Father.
Hi D,So if YOU did the same works as Keith did, would you and Keith be the same identical being?
mike
Mike,
As keith said, we cannot be compared to God.
but for the sake of arugeing.If I did everything that Keith did (which is not humanly possible), and had his exact thoughts, morality, and personality.
and i talked the same, walked the same, and did everything that Keith would do, and even a thought or a response from myself would be responses that keith would make, would only bring anyone to a common sense conclusion that I am keith.
If you were to put keith's brain in my body,
who am I?
WJ/SF/KJ
As another poster said, things were all very simple way back then, they didn't have all the big words and meanings you have today. There was God the Father and there was God the Son.
When you think in the Spirit you understand in the Spirit, and it's all very simple, theres nothing complicated about it.
My Son doesn't have a Father, he does but he's absent. So I tell him he has a Father who is in Heaven, God Almighty, and that he created the World. And he thinks that's cool. And he prays to him every morning and night (he told me). And we read kids books which have Jesus as the Son, he understands that perfectly, so, what WJ/SF/KJ? Do I now tell him that his Father is Jesus the Son? Then what do I tell him happened to the Father? Too complicated WJ/SF/KJ.
My thoughts.
For anyone interested;
In Hermas, one of the most popular books of the early Church,
Quote;
(First or second century),”The Shepherd”, a work which had great authority in ancient times and was ranked with Holy Scripture. Eusebius tells us that it was publicly read in the churches, and that while some denied it to be canonical, others “considered it most necessary”.It says to believe there is ONE God. The Son is spoken of seperately. And it's quite different than what you think. (The Son in Hermas seems to be the Holy Spirit, Jesus was a Man it seems, who became the second Son of God?)
The Shepherd can be read here;
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html
or here;
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/theshepherofhermas.htmSecond Book: Commandments
First Commandment
ON FAITH IN GOD.
FIRST Of all, believe that there is one God who created and finished all things, and made all things out of nothing. He alone is able to contain the whole, but Himself cannot be contained. Have faith therefore in Him, and fear Him; and fearing Him, exercise self-control. Keep these commands, and you will cast away from you all wickedness, and put on the strength of righteousness, and live to God, if you keep this commandment.The Son of God is explained in;
Fifth Similitude
OF TRUE FASTING AND ITS REWARD: ALSO OF PURITY OF BODY.Which is halfway down the page. And;
Ninth Similitude
THE GREAT MYSTERIES IN THE BUILDING OF THE MILITANT AND TRIUMPHANT CHURCH,
CHAPTER I to CHAPTER XV.Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 07 2011,18:22) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,10:07) ED (1)Is the Holy Spirit our Father?
(2)“The Spirit of God hath made me”, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4
The Holy Spirit takes part in every conception. (3)Jesus is “Unique” because he had no human Father.
WJ
Hi WJ,1) You sometimes have trouble “connecting the dots”. Compare:
2) I have said: all of you are children of the most High. (Psalm 82:6)
3) Correct!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDThen why did Jesus call the Pharasees children of the devil?
Your scripture does not say “We are children of the Holy Spirit” does it?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,02:15) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 06 2011,14:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 06 2011,07:48) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 05 2011,15:38) Show me where any mention is made that the Holy Spirit is a “Third Person” of a Tri-une God.
MartyI already have and you have rejected them. There are more. So yes, let God judge between me and you who accepts the inspired word of God which is the truth and who does not accept it!
WJ
Hi Keith:You have not showed me any scripture which states that the Holy Spirit is a “Third Person” of a Tri-une God. You interpret Matthew 28:19 to mean that, but there is no scripture which states that the Holy Spirit is a “Third Person” of a Tri-une God.
But enough said, I am content to let the Lord judge who is confused on this issue, and I am praying that God will either correct you or me so that we can walk in unity.
How can two walk together except they be agreed?
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyAnd there is no scripture that says that the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus or that the Holy Spirit is the Father is there?
But there are scriptures that says the Holy Spirit is another.
WJ
Hi Keith:I have already given you the scriptures that explain both of those points, therfore, there is nothing further that I can add to what I have already said.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (shimmer @ Feb. 08 2011,12:30) WJ/SF/KJ As another poster said, things were all very simple way back then, they didn't have all the big words and meanings you have today. There was God the Father and there was God the Son.
When you think in the Spirit you understand in the Spirit, and it's all very simple, theres nothing complicated about it.
My Son doesn't have a Father, he does but he's absent. So I tell him he has a Father who is in Heaven, God Almighty, and that he created the World. And he thinks that's cool. And he prays to him every morning and night (he told me). And we read kids books which have Jesus as the Son, he understands that perfectly, so, what WJ/SF/KJ? Do I now tell him that his Father is Jesus the Son? Then what do I tell him happened to the Father? Too complicated WJ/SF/KJ.
My thoughts.
Things were not simple WAY back than.study the history of the church, and even when it started.
Peter and paul had disagreements within ACTS and Paul called them out on it.The complication is that your trying to figure out God, when its not about figureing him out, but about KNOWING him.
Dont overcomplicate your self trying to explain, or make SENSE of God, because thats impossible.
If your Son KNOWS him, than God will reveal the truth to Him, if God wishes too.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,05:51) The problem you have is David didn’t do the works of God but is merely a vice-regent. However Jesus does the works.
Show me the scripture where Jesus did any works ON HIS OWN. Show me where he claimed it was by his OWN power, and NOT by the power of his Father, who was doing the works THROUGH him.mike
MikeShow me a scripture that says the Father did anything without Jesus.
Did Jesus not say that the Father gave him all things? If he has all things then the works of God are his works.
Didn't the Apostles give Jesus the Glory for healings and miracles?
DID JESUS DO THE WORKS OF GOD OR NOT MIKE?
WAS HE A PUPPET ON A STRING THAT COULD DO NOTHING ON HIS OWN?
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the “Son can do nothing by himself“; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.John 5:19
Notice the bold, Jesus says he can do nothing “by himself”, which is a statement of Deity because it means that he “Only” does what the Father does.
Can you say you can do nothing by yourself but you only do what you see the Father doing?
If you can then that means you are sinless.
Also he says “…whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Do you believe this Mike?
Do you believe Jesus can do whatever the Father does?
You see that scripture blows a big hole in your Jesus didn't create anything theory because here we see Jesus himself claiming that whatever the Father does he does. Plus we know that “Nothing came into being without him.” So you have a contradiction because you believe that more than “One” God created the Universe.
If Jesus words are true then that is “equality” and in fact it is in the same context that John says he is making himself equal to God!
He is not merely some puppet to the Father for he owns it all and it was all made by him and for him and he now sits in the Throne of God ruling the universe as God.
You can't even know the Father apart from him…
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; “neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matt 11:27
So there is your scripture that shows Jesus apart from the Father doing the greatest of all the works and that is revealing God to men. Do you see the work that Jesus here does by his own will? Jesus alone decides who can know God the Father or not.
You see Mike, no one even knows Jesus but the Father and no one knows the Father “unless Jesus reveals him”. Ha Ha, that is equality and Biblical proof that Jesus is God because men cannot know who God is apart from knowing him.
No wonder they wanted to stone him for him to claim that no man can come to God but by him. That is why they said he was making himself equal to God.
You need to ask Jesus to show you who the Father is then you can ask the Father to show you who Jesus is!
They didn't know him, DO YOU?
It is a Biblical fact that no man can say Jesus is “Lord” (YHVH) but by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3
For like Thomas it is actually seeing him by the Spirit of revelation that he is “Our Lord and God”.
WJ
Keith said to Mike:
Quote It is a Biblical fact that no man can say Jesus is “Lord” (YHVH) but by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3
Keith,A thought just occurred to me when reading your statement about what Paul said. Anyone can say that Jesus is “Lord” in the sense that men and angels may be lords. But it would take persuasion of the Holy Spirit to confess Jesus as Lord in the sense of supreme rank and authority.
Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 08 2011,11:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,05:51) The problem you have is David didn’t do the works of God but is merely a vice-regent. However Jesus does the works.
Show me the scripture where Jesus did any works ON HIS OWN. Show me where he claimed it was by his OWN power, and NOT by the power of his Father, who was doing the works THROUGH him.mike
Think Mike think!You misunderstand as usual. Jesus also said that He does not speak on His own. Yet He still said that “all (truth) that the Father has is MINE” (John 16).
Something just recently happened which is a perfect illustration of this. A lady at church recently shared some personal financial information with me. Now I did not know that she was not free to share this information without her husband's approval. So I saw him later and assured him that I would keep it confidential.
The husband was surprised that his wife had told me and I saw him speaking with his wife about it.
Now I ask you Mike: Was the financial information the wife shared with me EQUALLY hers as well as her husband's? Of course it was. But the one spouse should not disclose personal information without the approval of the other spouse. The wife should not have spoken ON HER OWN!
Wake up Mike! Jesus said that all truth that the Father has “is MINE” But it was not His to disclose without the approval of His Father.
The same holds true for the works Jesus did. His works were EQUALLY His works. But they were not His works to perform on His own.
Use the brain cells God gave you Mike!
Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 09 2011,03:16) WAS HE A PUPPET ON A STRING THAT COULD DO NOTHING ON HIS OWN?
Not a puppet because puppets are dead.But he definitely did nothing of his own accord.
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Hopefully Jesus answer is good enough for you. If not, then we can't help you until you actually believe the words of Jesus.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,07:27) Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 07 2011,15:06) Youngs Literal Translation has it worded as this; He who is overcoming — I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.
Which could mean slightly different. Actually it look's more like two. Father and Son with two thrones.
ShimmerHow is it different? Youngs says…
…I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.
Why would you keep posting JAs propaganda when he makes false claims?
WH
The Father has a throne and Jesus has a throne.Jesus sits with the Father on his throne and we can sit with Jesus on his throne.
Whatever logic you apply to this understanding needs to also apply to the second part, i.e., we will sit with Jesus on his throne.
If the logic doesn't fit both statements, you need to go back to the drawing board.
Hi Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,02:52)
MikeBut if he sits IN the “Throne of God” then he must be God or equal to him, right?
The answer is NO, Keith. For God to let Jesus sit in His throne WITH HIM means that God has let His Son rule in His strength and name………FOR A WHILE. Just like Micah 5:4 says.
Really? So God shares the Glory of sitting in his Throne with a creature, one who was created (as you believe Jesus is)?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) 1. Keith, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God? (1 Corinthians 15:28)
Mike, do you understand that right now Jesus is “SOVEREIGN”? Also do you know that the Father is not going to take back what he has given his “Only Begotten Son”? Jesus is going to give the Kingdom back to the Father so that he and the Father will share that rule as one and be all in all. Jesus is currently “all in all” and all is in his hands.But concerning the Kingdom, do you think Jesus will not remain the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. “Of the increase of his government and peace THERE SHALL BE NO END”, upon the throne of David, and upon “HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth “even for ever”. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isa 9:6, 7
There is nothing in scripture that says Jesus will cease to be “Sovereign” or “Supreme” in eternity.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04)
Revelation 3:21 NIV
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.2. Keith, will the victorious one(s) who are granted to sit on Jesus' throne WITH HIM actually BE Jesus Christ?
No. Trinitarians do not believe the Father and Jesus is the same person. But they are “One Spirit” or one God that lives and dwells in the hearts and lives of every true believer aren’t they?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) 3. Will those victorious ones be ruling in the strength and name and power of the one who actually OWNS the throne, or do you think they will rule in their own power as complete EQUALS – IN EVERY WAY – to Jesus Christ?
No. The key is they are ruling in the strength and name and power of Jesus. No scripture says that Jesus will give those who sits in his throne “All authority and Power” in heaven and earth is there? Why do you think you can make these comparisons to us and the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) 4. Keith, do you notice that Jesus has “MY thone” while his Father has “HIS throne”? Why do you think Jesus even HAS his own throne if he remains ruling from the throne of God forever?
These are metaphors of a Spiritual reality. I have already shown you that the “Throne” (Singular) of God and of the Lamb are One, for there is only “One” river of life flowing out of the Throne of God and the Lamb.1 “And he showed me A RIVER OF WATER OF LIFE, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side there were trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the curing of the nations. Rev 22:1 NWT
Even the NWT missed this one right Mike?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04)
5. Why do you think Jesus sits WITH God on God's throne?
Because he is the Word that was with God and is God!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04)
6.Is it LOGICAL and SENSIBLE that Jesus can sit on a throne WITH God if he IS God?[/b]
This is funny Mike. Why don’t you ever use the term Father or God the Father? You have been arguing all along that “God” does not mean “God” or identify God, yet you constantly use the term to identify God.John thought it was “LOGICAL and SENSIBLE” when he said the Word that was with God is God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,02:52)
The right hand shows equality.
Prove that by EXAMPLE, Keith.
The burden of proof is on you because the scriptures declare that Jesus sits in the Throne of God with all authority and power ruling as “Sovereign King” over the entire Universe with everything being made subject to him. He is not even subject to the Father at this time is he?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04)
Show any “right hand man” in the history of the world that was ABSOLUTELY EQUAL TO, or THE SAME BEING AS the one whose right hand he was at.You cannot Keith, because the occasion of this happening simply does not exist.
O
nce again you have shown us an example where you say that YHVH is at David’s right hand which is proof that someone can be at someone’s right hand and not be inferior to the one whose right hand they sit at.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) Most sources you search on this subject define the “right hand position” as a place of “honor and authority”, as I showed you yesterday. (Add to that list NETNotes, as I've just noticed today that they say the same thing.)
Mike now you are singing our tune by saying “Most sources”. HA HA. Most sources say Jesus is One God with the Father. The Net notes concerning the “Right Hand” in Acts 2:33 says..The expression the right hand of God represents supreme power and authority. Its use here sets up the quotation of Ps 110:1 in v. 34.
The definition of the term “Supreme” means; “highest in rank or authority”. So Jesus is the Highest in rank and authority and power. Is there any other higher than the “Highest”? Of course we have tons of scripture that states Jesus has “all authority and power” and that all things are in his hands. So the burden of proof is on you to show how Jesus is less than God sitting in the Throne of God and ruling as God, or that he being at the right hand of God (the Highest authority and Power) does not mean equality in authority and power.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04)
UNFORTUNATELY, as always seems to be the case given enough time, some TRINITARIAN sites now list “a place of EQUALITY” as a meaning of “right hand postition”. This is a flat out lie designed to support what you yourself want so desparately to claim.
Wow Mike. Does this mean that the NET scholars are all liars when they disagree with you? You are so arrogant man. For your information J Benner is anti-Trinitarian and once again he said…A: The Hebrew phrase is “yamin elohiym”. The word elohiym means “God” while the word “yamin” is “right hand”. The focus of this word is on the idea of “the right hand” in contrast to just “the hand” (yad in Hebrew). The right hand is the stronger hand over the left hand. The “right hand of God” is an idiom for “the strength of God”.
You see Mike this is just more proof of your dishonest tactics for you to not even investigate sources but instead just call them liars because they disagree with you. You are pitiful man.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) This is from Gesenius's Lexicon, as shown on the Blue Letter Bible site: To stand on the right hand of anyone is the same as to aid him (Ps 16:8, 109:31, 110:5, 121:5)
Nope no inequality here. YHVH at David’s right hand was aiding him, was YHVH inferior to David?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) Those on whom special honour is conferred are said to sit on the right hand of a king, as the queen (1 Kings 2:19, Ps 45:10), the friend of the king, or minister of the kingdom (Ps 110:1)
Jesus is not a queen but the “Only Begotten Son” whom the Father has given the Kingdom.Tell me Mike if an OT King that turned over the Kingdom to his Son to reign in his stead if the Son was inferior when he began to reign? Does the New King of the Kingdom have less authority and power as his predecessor or is he in anyway inferior? There is your example Mike.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) Keith, do you see that Ps 16:8 is listed as an instance where David is AIDED by his God?
Yea, is God who is at his right hand inferior?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) Like I said Keith, you jumped off the deep end with that one, buddy. Have I helped to get you back on track yet? I hope so, because I can't debate against “crazy”.
That’s how we feel sometime. But if God was at David’s right hand doing the works of God then to everyone else David’s right hand is equal to Gods, for it is God works and God's hand. There is nothing off the deep end about that. If God is at David’s right hand and you strike at his hand are you not striking at Gods?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) 8. Keith, are you able to understand that Ps 110:5 is teaching that God will be at the right hand of Jesus…………HELPING HIM?
Oh so now the Father sits at Jesus right hand? Sounds like equality to me unless you are saying that the Father is inferior to Jesus for being at his right hand.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) Okay, the second part of the Lexicon deals with “sitting at the right hand”. Gesenius says that this is an honor that is CONFERRED UPON someone BY the King. Solomon CONFERS this honor upon his mother in 1 Kiings 2:19.
Such weak lame comparisons. Jesus is not a mother but is “The Son”. If the Kingship is passed on to the Son then the Son is equal to the Father is he not Mike?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04) 11. Keith, do you realize that even if Jesus was “EQUAL TO” God, then he couldn't actually BE God? It would be an assinine statement to say, “God is EQUAL TO God”.
Why That is like saying that if a human was equal to another human then that human could not be human! That would be asinine! It is no different than saying “a human is equal to a human”. How is that Asinine? Or to say that the Word that was with God was God? Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,19:04)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,02:52)
For all things comes from him (Jesus) to us.
That's pretty close, Keith. But actually, scripture says that all things come FROM God. And all things come THROUGH Jesus.
That’s not just close Mike. It is a fact. Now I have some questions for you…?Is Jesus the “Author of Eternal Salvation” or not?
Is Jesus the Way, the Truth and The Life or not?
Is Jesus the “Author and finisher of our faith” or not?
Does everything consist by Jesus or not?
Did anything come into being without him or not?
Is Jesus the “Eternal Life” or not?
Is all things upheld by the word of his power or not?
Does he send us the Holy Spirit or not?
Is Jesus anything to you but just a tiny little servant who is merely an empty shell that God works through?
Now after you truthfully answer these you should never say again that Jesus is not “the source” of anything should you?
He is the source of everything you receive from God because you can only receive it by or through him?
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 08 2011,15:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,07:27) Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 07 2011,15:06) Youngs Literal Translation has it worded as this; He who is overcoming — I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.
Which could mean slightly different. Actually it look's more like two. Father and Son with two thrones.
ShimmerHow is it different? Youngs says…
…I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.
Why would you keep posting JAs propaganda when he makes false claims?
WH
The Father has a throne and Jesus has a throne.Jesus sits with the Father on his throne and we can sit with Jesus on his throne.
Whatever logic you apply to this understanding needs to also apply to the second part, i.e., we will sit with Jesus on his throne.
If the logic doesn't fit both statements, you need to go back to the drawing board.
Not at all.Because the scriptures never say anyone but Jesus will sit in the Throne of God.
WJ
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