Mikeboll64 vs francis

[shimmer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,04:45)

Shimmer So do you support this guys falshoods? JA says… “BUT, one CAN deputise for God, as Jesus does, and one could deputise for Pharoah, as Joseph did but note carefully that neither sits ON the THRONE of the one being deputised for (ON, here, means owning that position. IN means holding that position, only, just as Haman did not OWN the seal of the King but only held it for the purpose of carrying out his deputisation duty)”

WJ and SF, I do agree with most of what J says. But I'm also looking into what – I think – is called oneness theology. (note looking into that's all).
I think I'll get too confused, posting J's thoughts, and trying to post my own thoughts as well, here. So I think I'll continue posting J's thoughts for him (censored!) but take my own thoughts and questions elsewhere (if I have any).

SF, my mother wrote a book. It has chapters on the tabernacle and what it means with Jesus. (I haven't read it, properly, myself yet). She's a Trinitarian – or oneness believer. I can't quite figure out which though. (if theres a difference).

Will wait for J's response.

Quote

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as “I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne“. Rev 3:21

Youngs Literal Translation has it worded as this;

He who is overcoming — I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.

Which could mean slightly different. Actually it look's more like two. Father and Son with two thrones.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 08 2011,01:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,04:45) Shimmer So do you support this guys falshoods? JA says… “BUT, one CAN deputise for God, as Jesus does, and one could deputise for Pharoah, as Joseph did but note carefully that neither sits ON the THRONE of the one being deputised for (ON, here, means owning that position. IN means holding that position, only, just as Haman did not OWN the seal of the King but only held it for the purpose of carrying out his deputisation duty)” WJ and SF, I do agree with most of what J says. But I'm also looking into what – I think – is called oneness theology. (note looking into that's all). I think I'll get too confused, posting J's thoughts, and trying to post my own thoughts as well, here. So I think I'll continue posting J's thoughts for him (censored!) but take my own thoughts and questions elsewhere (if I have any). SF, my mother wrote a book. It has chapters on the tabernacle and what it means with Jesus. (I haven't read it, properly, myself yet). She's a Trinitarian – or oneness believer. I can't quite figure out which though. (if theres a difference). Will wait for J's response. Quote To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as “I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne“. Rev 3:21 Youngs Literal Translation has it worded as this; He who is overcoming — I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne. Which could mean slightly different. Actually it look's more like two. Father and Son with two thrones.

Than thats something you should look into.

[KangarooJack]

Mikeboll said:

Quote

If YHVH being at David’s right hand is doing the works then that means that David to everyone else is “equal” to YHVH, unless you are saying they are David’s works and not YHVHs.

The word “adonay” means “MY Lord” (God). Are you saying that YHWH is calling Himself, “MY Lord”? Or are you saying that YHWH said to David, “MY Lord at your (David's) right hand…?

This makes no sense at all.

Roo

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 07 2011,15:06)

Youngs Literal Translation has it worded as this; He who is overcoming — I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne. Which could mean slightly different. Actually it look's more like two. Father and Son with two thrones.

Shimmer

How is it different? Youngs says…

…I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.

Why would you keep posting JAs propaganda when he makes false claims?

WH

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 07 2011,15:22)

Mikeboll said: Quote If YHVH being at David’s right hand is doing the works then that means that David to everyone else is “equal” to YHVH, unless you are saying they are David’s works and not YHVHs. The word “adonay” means “MY Lord” (God). Are you saying that YHWH is calling Himself, “MY Lord”? Or are you saying that YHWH said to David, “MY Lord at your (David's) right hand…? This makes no sense at all. Roo

Jack

You quoted my words.

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,07:28)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 07 2011,15:22) Mikeboll said: Quote If YHVH being at David’s right hand is doing the works then that means that David to everyone else is “equal” to YHVH, unless you are saying they are David’s works and not YHVHs. The word “adonay” means “MY Lord” (God). Are you saying that YHWH is calling Himself, “MY Lord”? Or are you saying that YHWH said to David, “MY Lord at your (David's) right hand…? This makes no sense at all. Roo Jack You quoted my words. WJ

Oops! Now Mike is gonna give me another tile.

Jack

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,07:27)

Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 07 2011,15:06) Youngs Literal Translation has it worded as this; He who is overcoming — I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne. Which could mean slightly different. Actually it look's more like two. Father and Son with two thrones. Shimmer How is it different? Youngs says… …I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne. Why would you keep posting JAs propaganda when he makes false claims? WH

Keith,

Revelation 22 says that Jesus sits on the throne of His father David. So by Shimmer's logic Jesus sits on three thrones.

But we know that there is only one throne.

David's throne = Christ's throne = the Father's throne

Jack

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 07 2011,16:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,07:28) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 07 2011,15:22) Mikeboll said: Quote If YHVH being at David’s right hand is doing the works then that means that David to everyone else is “equal” to YHVH, unless you are saying they are David’s works and not YHVHs. The word “adonay” means “MY Lord” (God). Are you saying that YHWH is calling Himself, “MY Lord”? Or are you saying that YHWH said to David, “MY Lord at your (David's) right hand…? This makes no sense at all. Roo Jack You quoted my words. WJ Oops! Now Mike is gonna give me another tile. Jack

Nah

I think he will see it is an honest mistake!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,08:39)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 07 2011,16:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,07:28) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 07 2011,15:22) Mikeboll said: Quote If YHVH being at David’s right hand is doing the works then that means that David to everyone else is “equal” to YHVH, unless you are saying they are David’s works and not YHVHs. The word “adonay” means “MY Lord” (God). Are you saying that YHWH is calling Himself, “MY Lord”? Or are you saying that YHWH said to David, “MY Lord at your (David's) right hand…? This makes no sense at all. Roo Jack You quoted my words. WJ Oops! Now Mike is gonna give me another tile. Jack Nah I think he will see it is an honest mistake! WJ

See my post immediately above. We posted at the same time.

Jack

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 08 2011,02:09)

But Joseph DID not do what Pharaohs exact works. Jesus did the exact works of the Father.

Hi D,

So if YOU did the same works as Keith did, would you and Keith be the same identical being?

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 07 2011,17:02)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 08 2011,02:09) But Joseph DID not do what Pharaohs exact works. Jesus did the exact works of the Father. Hi D, So if YOU did the same works as Keith did, would you and Keith be the same identical being? mike

We Aren't God.

But if he did the same works I did he would be equal to me wouldn't he?

WJ

[Ed J]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 08 2011,02:09)

Your assuming that Jesus and God are two different people.

Hi SF,

It's “The Bible” that teaches that Jesus and God are “two” different entities.
1Tm.1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and
peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

WJ said to Marty:

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,02:15)

there is no scripture that says that the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus or that the Holy Spirit is the Father is there?

Hi WJ,

What does the combination of Eph.4:6 combined with Matt.1:18, Matt.1:20 and Luke 1:35 say to you?
Matt.1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused
to Joseph, before they came (consummated) together, she was found with child of the HolySpirit.
Matt.1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto
him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife:
for that which is conceived in her is of the HolySpirit. (Son of the HolySpirit = Son of God)
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The HolySpirit shall come upon
thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that
holy thing(Jesus) which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 07 2011,17:56)

WJ said to Marty: Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,02:15) there is no scripture that says that the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus or that the Holy Spirit is the Father is there? Hi WJ, What does the combination of Eph.4:6 combined with Matt.1:18, Matt.1:20 and Luke 1:35 say to you? Matt.1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise:

ED

There is still nothing in those scritpures that have the words “Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus” or “The Holy Spirit is the Father”.

Is the Holy Spirit our Father?

“The Spirit of God hath made me“, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4

The Holy Spirit takes part in every conception. Jesus is “Unique” because he had no human Father.

I will not agree with your interpretation because it contradicts many scriptures that says the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are distinct or in the Holy Spirits case, “another”.

God does not procreate or breed an offspring with mortal woman! He creates!

WJ

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,03:10)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 05 2011,19:45) I'm glad you decided to study instead of criticize; it shows us all your maturity in Christ, Jesus! Titus 2:13-14 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (1Thess.2:12) ED I read your scriptures, but you are not addressing my point. The scriptures say that Jesus is redeeming us to “Himself” which is exactly what YHVH says he is doing. If you don't see the correlation between the two, oh well. Good day.

Hi WJ,

It's YHVH that redeems us to himself, did you somehow miss that important point?
2Corinthians 5:1 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world
unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and
hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 07 2011,18:09)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,03:10) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 05 2011,19:45) I'm glad you decided to study instead of criticize; it shows us all your maturity in Christ, Jesus! Titus 2:13-14 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (1Thess.2:12) ED I read your scriptures, but you are not addressing my point. The scriptures say that Jesus is redeeming us to “Himself” which is exactly what YHVH says he is doing. If you don't see the correlation between the two, oh well. Good day. Hi WJ, It's YHVH that redeems us to himself, did you somehow miss that important point?

ED

Did you not miss the scriptures that says Jesus is “Redeeming” us unto himself by his own blood? That is “equality” wouldn't you say?

WJ

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,10:07)

ED (1)Is the Holy Spirit our Father? (2)“The Spirit of God hath made me”, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4 The Holy Spirit takes part in every conception. (3)Jesus is “Unique” because he had no human Father. WJ

Hi WJ,

1) You sometimes have trouble “connecting the dots”. Compare:

2) I have said: all of you are children of the most High. (Psalm 82:6)

3) Correct!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,10:07)

ED Is the Holy Spirit our Father? WJ

Hi WJ, Of course!

Eph.4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord,
one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who
is above all, and through all, and in you all.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,10:13)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 07 2011,18:09) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,03:10) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 05 2011,19:45) I'm glad you decided to study instead of criticize; it shows us all your maturity in Christ, Jesus! Titus 2:13-14 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (1Thess.2:12) ED I read your scriptures, but you are not addressing my point. The scriptures say that Jesus is redeeming us to “Himself” which is exactly what YHVH says he is doing. If you don't see the correlation between the two, oh well. Good day. Hi WJ, It's YHVH that redeems us to himself, did you somehow miss that important point? 2Corinthians 5:1 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. ED Did you not miss the scriptures that says Jesus is “Redeeming” us unto himself by his own blood? That is “equality” wouldn't you say? WJ

Hi WJ,

What verse are you referring to? Acts 20:28 maybe?
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,
over the which the HolySpirit hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God,
which he(HolySpirit) hath purchased (through “Jesus”=74) with his own [God blood=74]. (Lev.25:25)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Oh brother…………..where to start?  Keith, I have no choice but to list some bolded questions for you.  They will mostly be “YES” or “NO” questions.  But you have gone off the deep end here, and I must try to get you back to reality………or at least find out what things I need to work with you on.  Please answer the questions, okay?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,02:52)

Mike But if he sits IN the “Throne of God” then he must be God or equal to him, right?

The answer is NO, Keith.  For God to let Jesus sit in His throne WITH HIM means that God has let His Son rule in His strength and name………FOR A WHILE.  Just like Micah 5:4 says.

1.  Keith, do you understand that Jesus will eventually turn this SOVEREIGN reign he has been GIVEN by his God back over to his God?  (1 Corinthians 15:28)

Revelation 3:21  NIV
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

2.  Keith, will the victorious one(s) who are granted to sit on Jesus' throne WITH HIM actually BE Jesus Christ?

3.  Will those victorious ones be ruling in the strength and name and power of the one who actually OWNS the throne, or do you think they will rule in their own power as complete EQUALS – IN EVERY WAY – to Jesus Christ?

4.  Keith, do you notice that Jesus has “MY thone” while his Father has “HIS throne”?  Why do you think Jesus even HAS his own throne if he remains ruling from the throne of God forever?

5.  Why do you think Jesus sits WITH God on God's throne?  

6.  Is it LOGICAL and SENSIBLE that Jesus can sit on a throne WITH God if he IS God?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,02:52)

The right hand shows equality.

Prove that by EXAMPLE, Keith.  You and I have both known from a young age that someone's “right hand man” is never exactly equal to the top guy, let alone the same BEING as the top guy.  Show me from Star Trek how “Number One” is EQUAL to Captian Picard.  Show how Spock had absolutely the same authority as Captain Kirk.  Show any “right hand man” in the history of the world that was ABSOLUTELY EQUAL TO, or THE SAME BEING AS the one whose right hand he was at.

You cannot Keith, because the occasion of this happening simply does not exist.  Most sources you search on this subject define the “right hand position” as a place of “honor and authority”, as I showed you yesterday.  (Add to that list NETNotes, as I've just noticed today that they say the same thing.)

UNFORTUNATELY, as always seems to be the case given enough time, some TRINITARIAN sites now list “a place of EQUALITY” as a meaning of “right hand postition”.  This is a flat out lie designed to support what you yourself want so desparately to claim.  And that's why I asked for EXAMPLES of EQUALITY between the right hand man and the “boss”.  And I would ask them the same thing as I asked you……………..SHOW AN EXAMPLE from anywhere in the history of the world that demonstrates “EQUALITY”.  

This is from Gesenius's Lexicon, as shown on the Blue Letter Bible site:

To stand on the right hand of anyone is the same as to aid him (Ps 16:8, 109:31, 110:5, 121:5)

Those on whom special honour is conferred are said to sit on the right hand of a king, as the queen (1 Kings 2:19, Ps 45:10), the friend of the king, or minister of the kingdom (Ps 110:1)

Keith, do you see that Ps 16:8 is listed as an instance where David is AIDED by his God?  God being at your right hand means God helps YOU to do what YOU must do.  It does not mean that YOU or David are EQUAL TO God in any way, shape or form.  Keith, God has been at MY right hand during this whole post, as well as during many posts I've made since joining HN.  God is HELPING me and GUIDING me, but I claim no “EQUALITY” with my God – that is simply assinine and blasphemous.  And it is assinine and blasphemous as well for you to claim that David was “equal to” his God just because his God was HELPING HIM.  In Isaiah 40:25, God asks, “WHO is my EQUAL?”

Like I said Keith, you jumped off the deep end with that one, buddy.  Have I helped to get you back on track yet?  I hope so, because I can't debate against “crazy”.

7.  Keith, have you now come to understand that NO ONE is “EQUAL TO” God, and that having God at one's right hand means that God is HELPING that person, NOT that the person has become “EQUAL TO GOD”?

To continue:  Did you also notice that Ps 110:5 is listed as one of the examples of God AIDING or HELPING someone else?  David is clearly talking about Jesus, for the NT bears this out.  And verse 5 is talking about how God is at the right hand of Jesus, therefore HELPING Jesus.  

8.  Keith, are you able to understand that Ps 110:5 is teaching that God will be at the right hand of Jesus…………HELPING HIM?  

Okay, the second part of the Lexicon deals with “sitting at the right hand”.  Gesenius says that this is an honor that is CONFERRED UPON someone BY the King.  Solomon CONFERS this honor upon his mother in 1 Kiings 2:19.  

9.  It does NOT mean that Bathsheba was EQUAL TO King Solomon, does it?  

10.  It doesn't mean that Bathsheba all of a sudden became the SAME EXACT BEING as King Solomon, does it?

Keith, I really hope you answer these questions, so I at least know that you have not completely lost your mind.  Because you have me worried implying that David, and now even Moses are EQUAL TO GOD.  

11.  Keith, do you realize that even if Jesus was “EQUAL TO” God, then he couldn't actually BE God?  It would be an assinine statement to say, “God is EQUAL TO God”.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 08 2011,02:52)

For all things comes from him (Jesus) to us.

That's pretty close, Keith.    But actually, scripture says that all things come FROM God.  And all things come THROUGH Jesus.

peace and love,
mike

[Author]

Posts