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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2011,22:12) And what TWOT is saying is that every time the word “adon” is used IN THE PLURAL FORM, it refers to God. So Jack, is the word pluralized in Psalm 110:1?
MikeJack is not talking about Pss 110:1, he is talking about Pss 110:5.
“'Adonay” sits at YHVHs right hand. Why are you not acknowledging this?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,04:06) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 03 2011,11:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:44) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 02 2011,15:09)
When I show you the scriptures you always state that I am being selective.
MartyAnd the scriptures I have given you do not line up with your interpretation of those scriptures.
Tell me Marty, Is John 14:16 scripture or not? If it is then please explain why Jesus said he will pray the Father to send another?
Please explain how your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:7-13 matches John 14:16.
I already know you reject Matt 28:19 as scripture.
WJ
Hi Keith:Jesus was going to his position at the right hand of the Father, and while he was with them he was their comforter (helper), and so he said, another comforter (helper) because he was going to baptize believers with the Holy Ghost after he was glorified, but he made it plain that the comforter (helper) of whom he spoke was already with them in that he was dwelling with them and would be in them.
In 2 John we have the following scripture:
Quote 2 John 2:9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. And so, now we as his disciples have both he (Jesus) and our God our Father as our comforter (helper).
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi MartyThat is a non answer Marty because Jesus clearly said “that he would pray the Father, and the Father would send another“.
Why did he use that language if he was speaking of the Father. Would the Father be the “other” that the Father sends?
That makes no sense Marty.
Jesus could have easily said the Father that was in him would come to you.
WJ
Hi WJ:Here is the scripture. Let's see what he said:
Quote JOhn 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
And so, he the other comforter of whom he spoke was the Spirit of Truth.
The comforter is the Holy Ghost:
Quote 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God our Father:
Quote 1 Co 2:9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Quote 1 Co 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Feb. 04 2011,11:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 04 2011,04:06) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 03 2011,11:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:44) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 02 2011,15:09)
When I show you the scriptures you always state that I am being selective.
MartyAnd the scriptures I have given you do not line up with your interpretation of those scriptures.
Tell me Marty, Is John 14:16 scripture or not? If it is then please explain why Jesus said he will pray the Father to send another?
Please explain how your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:7-13 matches John 14:16.
I already know you reject Matt 28:19 as scripture.
WJ
Hi Keith:Jesus was going to his position at the right hand of the Father, and while he was with them he was their comforter (helper), and so he said, another comforter (helper) because he was going to baptize believers with the Holy Ghost after he was glorified, but he made it plain that the comforter (helper) of whom he spoke was already with them in that he was dwelling with them and would be in them.
In 2 John we have the following scripture:
Quote 2 John 2:9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. And so, now we as his disciples have both he (Jesus) and our God our Father as our comforter (helper).
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi MartyThat is a non answer Marty because Jesus clearly said “that he would pray the Father, and the Father would send another“.
Why did he use that language if he was speaking of the Father. Would the Father be the “other” that the Father sends?
That makes no sense Marty.
Jesus could have easily said the Father that was in him would come to you.
WJ
Hi WJ:Here is the scripture. Let's see what he said:
Quote JOhn 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
And so, he the other comforter of whom he spoke was the Spirit of Truth.
The comforter is the Holy Ghost:
Quote 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God our Father:
Quote 1 Co 2:9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Quote 1 Co 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyYou are so confused. Is the Spirit of Truth the Holy Spirit or not?
You say Jesus is the Son of the Holy Spirit. Which means that the Holy Spirit is the Father.
Which means that you are saying Jesus would pray to the Father to send “another” from the Father and that other is the Father!
You are making no sense.Is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth the same Spirit or not?
Man you are going to have to do better than this if you are going to teach in your Trinitarian Church.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2011,02:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2011,22:12) And what TWOT is saying is that every time the word “adon” is used IN THE PLURAL FORM, it refers to God. So Jack, is the word pluralized in Psalm 110:1?
MikeJack is not talking about Pss 110:1, he is talking about Pss 110:5.
“'Adonay” sits at YHVHs right hand. Why are you not acknowledging this?
WJ
Keith,Mike is still playing games eh? In Psalm 110:1 David heard Jehovah say to his ADON, “Sit thou on my right hand….” Then in vverse 5 David replied saying to Jehovah saying, “My ADONAY (God) at your right hand shall exectue judgment….”
The Hebrew “adonay” in verse 5 is always a reference to God. Strong's agrees with the TWOT.
Quote “'Adonay” sits at YHVHs right hand. Why are you not acknowledging this?
Mike can't acknowledge it.Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2011,11:46) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Feb. 03 2011,15:43) Mike,
lol Im glad im not the only one who thinks so.
I think JA is feeding info to another person.That my hypothesis.
I agree with you completly D,but let's ask HER:
thankful, are you the same person who has posted here as both “Karmarie” and “Shimmer”? And are you posting thoughts that JA/Istari has asked you to post since he's now banned?
mike
Are you feeling alright
?To all,
JustAskin was banned, not because of scriptural reasons, but because he became too abusive with his words.
I agree he shouldn't have said what he did. So it's his own fault why he was banned.But I will be posting his beliefs.
If I get banned for doing this then so be it.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2011,02:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2011,22:12) And what TWOT is saying is that every time the word “adon” is used IN THE PLURAL FORM, it refers to God. So Jack, is the word pluralized in Psalm 110:1?
MikeJack is not talking about Pss 110:1, he is talking about Pss 110:5.
“'Adonay” sits at YHVHs right hand. Why are you not acknowledging this?
WJ
Hi Keith,I DID address that point. It was in the last part of the post where I talked about “right hand”.
There are different uses of “right hand” in the scriptures, Keith. From the Watchtower:
To be on the right hand of a ruler was to have the most important position, next to the ruler himself (Ps 110:1; Ac 7:55, 56; Ro 8:34; 1Pe 3:22),
This is the use and understanding of Psalm 110:1.
Usually the right hand of a warrior was his sword-wielding hand, and it was unprotected by the shield in the left hand. Therefore, a friend would stand or fight at his right hand as an upholder and protector. This circumstance is used metaphorically with regard to God’s help and protection to those serving him.—Ps 16:8; 109:30, 31; 110:5; 121:5.
This is the use and understanding of Psalm 110:5.
Verse 1 is about Jesus, who is called “adon”, a title that was also many times applied to men, and it says that Jesus sits at the right hand OF YHVH.
Verse 5 speaks of Jehovah being at Jesus' right hand, meaning that God's own power is backing what Jesus does.
Psalm 16:8 NIV
I keep my eyes always on the LORD.
With him at my right hand, I will not be shaken.See Keith? It is the same in this Psalm. David was not saying that God was HIS “right hand man”, but that God was supporting him with His strength and name. Similar to what it says about Jesus in both 110:5 and Micah 5:4, right?
So it is YHVH, not Jesus, who is called “Adonay” in verse 5. And even if you want to nonsensically argue this point, remember that I listed two other scriptures where “Adonay” applies to MEN, not God Almighty. So Jack's “proof text” is SOLIDLY refuted.And to both you and Jack I say: See? It's not that I IGNORE your scholars, but rather that I RESEARCH what they say against the actual scriptures and see if it is correct. So I didn't IGNORE TWOT in this case, but SCRIPTURALLY proved that their statement that “Adonay” was ONLY used of God is inaccurate.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (shimmer @ Feb. 05 2011,12:50) Are you feeling alright ? To all,
JustAskin was banned, not because of scriptural reasons, but because he became too abusive with his words.
I agree he shouldn't have said what he did. So it's his own fault why he was banned.But I will be posting his beliefs.
If I get banned for doing this then so be it.
Hi Shimmer,Yeah, I feel great! Thanks for asking!
I agree with JA on many issues. And I never had any problem with him posting his imagination on certain issues. It was only the abuse, like you said.
And I have no problem with you NON-ABUSIVELY conveying his thoughts.
Btw, I answered your question in the other thread. I've been busy with long posts to Jack and Keith, and forgot about the other thread.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2011,15:18) Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 05 2011,12:50) Are you feeling alright ? To all,
JustAskin was banned, not because of scriptural reasons, but because he became too abusive with his words.
I agree he shouldn't have said what he did. So it's his own fault why he was banned.But I will be posting his beliefs.
If I get banned for doing this then so be it.
Hi Shimmer,Yeah, I feel great! Thanks for asking!
I agree with JA on many issues. And I never had any problem with him posting his imagination on certain issues. It was only the abuse, like you said.
And I have no problem with you NON-ABUSIVELY conveying his thoughts.
Btw, I answered your question in the other thread. I've been busy with long posts to Jack and Keith, and forgot about the other thread.
mike
Ok.And, I called you what I did because of what you said about me. I didnt like it. But never mind, forgiven already.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2011,21:10) Verse 5 speaks of Jehovah being at Jesus' right hand, meaning that God's own power is backing what Jesus does.
MikeThis is more JW bunk. The Psalmist didn't switch places from verse 1 to verse 5.
So now God the Father is sitting at the right hand of God the Son. He He. But wait what about your argument that sitting at the right hand didn't mean equality? Does this mean YHVH at his right hand is inferior?
So what is the difference in Jesus sitting in the Throne of God and executing judgment and making his enemies his footstool? That would still make them equal wouldn't it Mike?
WJ
Hi Keith,
Read Psalm 16:8 that I posted. Was David saying that God sat at HIS right hand, or that God was “at his right hand” protecting and strengthening him?
Does 16:8 imply that David and God are equals? If not, what DOES it imply?
Think this out Keith. Verse 5 is using the idiom of “right hand” in ONE way, while verse 1 uses it the other way.
Please DIRECTLY answer the bolded question for me.
peace and love,
mikeAnd where are you, Jack?
I saw you over in the “Jesus body” thread spouting off about the TWOT and MY misunderstanding of it. Where are you now that I've explained YOUR misunderstanding of it and THEIR inaccuracy as compared against scripture itself?
Keith needs your help with Psalm 16:8, Jack. Don't let him down.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2011,10:35) Hi Keith, Read Psalm 16:8 that I posted. Was David saying that God sat at HIS right hand, or that God was “at his right hand” protecting and strengthening him?
Does 16:8 imply that David and God are equals? If not, what DOES it imply?
Think this out Keith. Verse 5 is using the idiom of “right hand” in ONE way, while verse 1 uses it the other way.
Please DIRECTLY answer the bolded question for me.
peace and love,
mike
MikeI have thought it out.
David is not even in the remotest like Christ. Jesus sits in the Throne of God with all authority and power being subject to him. Think man. He sits in the Throne of God.
Once again the Psalmist didn't switch around from verse 1 to verse 5. Thats ludicrous and a weak attempt to misquote the Psalmist.
WJ
Yes Keith,
Jesus is MUCH greater than David. Is this going to be your fallback answer to everything?
Let's analyze your claim about David “switching around”, okay?
1 Jehovah says to my lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”This is a simple case of teaching that Jesus will be God's right hand man, right?
5 The Lord is at your right hand;
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.Now, taken as is, this scripture simply says the same thing about Jesus as 16:8 says about David, right? It says that the one God granted to be His right hand man will be protected and strengthened in his pursuits by God Himself “fighting for him at his right hand”.
So you see, there is no “switching” going on. It is merely a case of David using two different “right hand idioms” in the same Psalm. But let's analyze what YOU think it means.
You seem to think that verse 1 means that God the Son is at the right hand of God the Father, but then in verse 5, God the Father is at the right hand of God the Son. Now THAT would be “switching”, right?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2011,10:57) Btw Keith, You did NOT answer my bolded question from before. Would you please do so?
mike
Mike the answer is Yes, because if David is at the right hand of YHVH then he is equal to being YHVH as far as everyone else is concerned because it is YHVH doing the work through the vice-regent David.But Jesus doesn't just sit next to the Father which is a metaphor of equality, he sits “In the Throne of God” which surely means “equality” and is only reserved for God.
So does sitting in “Gods Throne” mean he is not equal to God?
If so that would mean that someone less than God sits in his throne, right?
If YHVH is sitting at Davids right hand does that mean he is inferior?
You see Mike, Jesus doesn't rule by proxy because unlike every other Savour or King, Jesus literally has all things and all judgment and authority and power. It is Jesus that does the works. It was also by his own Life and Blood that he saved us and redeemed us unto himself.
So to us Jesus is our Great God and Savour and Lord or Owner!
WJ
I had asked Keith:
Does Psalm 16:8 imply that David and God are equals?
Keith responded:
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 06 2011,03:14) Mike the answer is Yes, because if David is at the right hand of YHVH then he is equal to being YHVH as far as everyone else is concerned because it is YHVH doing the work through the vice-regent David.
Wow! I don't know which point to attack first.1. Psalm 16:8 does NOT say that David is at YHVH's right hand, but that YHVH is at DAVID'S right hand. The JW's have shown you SCRIPTURALLY that having God “at your right hand” was a Hebrew idiom meaning that God was fighting beside you. But you said:
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 06 2011,03:14) This is more JW bunk.
Really Keith? They backed up this FACT with at least 5 scriptures, right? Yet it is “bunk”? 
This, coming from the man who scolds me for not believing HIS biased scholars! You say I IGNORE your scholars, but you are so easily willing to dismiss this SCRIPTURALLY BACKED FACT from the JW's as “bunk” without even checking into it.And don't even say you DID check into it, because the scriptures that back up what they say are right there in the same post.
2. You say that David having YHVH at his right hand means EQUALITY between David and Jehovah? Wow, how many members ARE THERE in your “Godhead”?
Isaiah 40:25 NIV
“To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?” says the Holy One.I believe you to be PURPOSELY confusing what you KNOW, just to divert this point. If a spokesman FOR a king relays the words of that king, then THOSE WORDS have EQUAL authority as if they were coming from the king himself. But the vice-regent himself is not EQUAL to the king. Sure, there were certain understandings, such as if you laid a hand on the messenger, it was like you were laying a hand on the king himself. But David is not EQUAL to God just because God fights for him at his right hand.
3. You bring up the fact that David was a vice regent OF his God. Now why do you ignore this fact when it comes to Jesus? God SENT him also. He is a SERVANT of his God also. He follows the commands of his God also. He spoke the words of his God to the people also. All the things David did and was, Jesus did and was also.
Granted, Jesus is far greater than David, but what does that prove? David was far greater than any of his loyal subjects who also feared Jehovah, right? But just because God's servant David was greater than God's servant “David's stable cleaner”, doesn't make David God. And just because God's faithful servant Jesus is greater than God's faithful servant David, it likewise doesn't mean Jesus is God.
4. And finally, you call “sitting at someone's right hand” a metaphor for “equality”. Where do you come by this information? If A sits at the right hand of B, then there is not “equality”. It is a matter of B having the greater power and position, and honoring A by making A his “right hand man”.
Never in the history of the world has it meant that A and B were equals, let alone the same exact being.
Keith, please show me an example from history where someone's “right hand man” was either equal to or the same being as the one whose right hand he was at.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 06 2011,03:14) So does sitting in “Gods Throne” mean he is not equal to God? If so that would mean that someone less than God sits in his throne, right?
Apparently so Keith. Because others will sit in Jesus' throne, and I don't assume they will become the being of Jesus or be as great and powerful as he is, do you?Besides, don't forget what I've taught you about COMPARISONS, okay?
Your own words say “equal TO God”. In order to be COMPARED as “equal TO God”, you can't actually BE God.Keith, thank you for answering my question. Unfortunately, your answer spawned other questions and points, which I've numbered 1 through 4. Could you address at least one of those points for me. You can “cherry pick” your best one, like I do yours when you post this much stuff. I don't mind at all. Because if I think one that you don't answer is really important to the discussion, I have no problem bringing it up again.
peace and love,
mike
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