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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2011,06:13) My logic is perfectly accurate Ed.
Ya… right.. ur logic is comparing the holy spirit to a man's gentials…….ya.. keep fooling yourself
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2011,02:30) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 30 2011,06:58)
Now, which of Francis' points SPECIFICALLY did I not addresss that have you concerned? Post ONE of them here, and I will address it or show you where I already DID address it. If you're not willing to do that, then pipe down about it.
Do you see that word SPECIFICALLY above, D? Do you see the last sentence? Do one or the other, please.Really D? Does God Almighty have a God? YES or NO?
You spouting off about your varied imaginations about the Son actually BEING the Father and such do not constitute an ANSWER to my question. When you actually ANSWER that question, you may ask ONE of your own – and I will surely DIRECTLY answer it.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 30 2011,06:58)
ANSWER every POINT.
And you willl lose.
Its as simple as that.
You have that reversed, D. If YOU answer my points ONE AT A TIME, then YOU will “lose”, and truth will prevail. It's as simple as that.
Look at how far we've already come in this thread! So many truths have prevailed already. Isn't that wonderful? 
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 30 2011,06:58)
why dont you answer all the points where Francis correted you about your debate fallacies, or your “red herrings”
Why don't YOU mention ONE of them SPECIFICALLY, like I asked, and I will address it. Or, you can just keep spouting harassing crap. The choice is yours.peace and love,
mikeQuote Really D? Does God Almighty have a God? YES or NO?
DUDE we do not AGREE on the concept of WHO GOD IS, so of course GOD DOES NOT HAVE A GOD. I HAVE ANSWERED THIS MANY TIMES.Quote You spouting off about your varied imaginations about the Son actually BEING the Father and such do not constitute an ANSWER to my question. When you actually ANSWER that question, you may ask ONE of your own – and I will surely DIRECTLY answer it.
Your talking about the Facts? I already Answered so many times! of course my God doesnt have another God, because only ONE GOD exists.
i have explained this many times.but we dont even agree about WHO God is, so the question doesnt prove or disprove anything.
in other words its a dumb question with common sense.Quote You have that reversed, D. If YOU answer my points ONE AT A TIME, then YOU will “lose”, and truth will prevail. It's as simple as that. Look at how far we've already come in this thread! So many truths have prevailed already. Isn't that wonderful?
WHEN HAVE I NOT TEARED APART YOUR POST AND ANSWER EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF NONESENSE THAT YOU WRITE?
It is wonderful to see that im not alone in stating your flaws.
For some time, i thuoght i was going crazy.Quote Why don't YOU mention ONE of them SPECIFICALLY, like I asked, and I will address it. Or, you can just keep spouting harassing crap. The choice is yours.
You mean all the points you ignored about my posts?
tell me why did you cowardly ran away from these points?Now when it comes to francis let me quote exactly what u didnt answer.
Quote Look who's talking. This is coming from a person that can't or won't be honest and admit that he could be wrong about “elohim” even though there is absolutely no evidence to support your wishful thinking that “elohim” CAN NOT MEAN God. Quote This has already been dealt with. And instead of dealing with the arguments I presented, you called it gibberish. If that is the extent of your reasoning, then things are pretty bleak for you… not for me. But anyway… It doesn't matter because you don't care what the evidence may say about the meaning of the word “elohim” to begin with.
Quote I know what you said… and I specifically and carefully addressed the EXACT points you are bringing up once again. So for you to say that you are really stumped by what I wrote, clearly indicates that you appear to be disingenious… and that you are pretending ignorance for no other reason than because you don't want to deal with the fact that you've been exposed as a person who has no regard for facts or evidence that is contrary to your personal bias and personal beliefs. The above statement of yours is almost like an ostrich sticking their head in the ground hoping that the issue will go way. Well, it won't go away.
When 2 posts ago you wrote that for this debate you are willing to concede the definition of the word “elohim” to keep things moving… that is EXACTLY THE SAME MEANING as your above comment when you said that you would “accept “God” as a REAL, BONAFIDE MEANING or DEFINITION of the word “elohim” for this debate.”
So all you did was REPEAT YOURSELF!!
That's all you did. So what am I supposed to do now? Since all you did was repeat yourself, am I to repeat myself as well and give you the SAME EXACT answer as I did the first time around? C'mon Mike.As I said before, I don't care that you are willing to concede the definition solely for the purpose of this debate… in an effort to move forward with this debate… because you said:
I have stated for the record that I do NOT believe “God” to be a NAME of our Creator, but a TITLE. And I do not believe the English word “God”, as we understand it, to be a bonafide DEFINITION of the word “elohim”.
Why is this important me? It is a perfect microcosm… a coming attraction of things to come in the larger debate around it. If you are not willing to concede that elohim can mean God in the scriptures… even in the face of the fact that you can't find any scholarly support for your position… then what does that tell us will happen with the rest of the debate about Trinitarism? It tells us that you will do exactly the same thing.
I can bring all kinds of evidences and proof to demonstrate that the Trinity is true… that Hebrews 1:8 has God calling Jesus God… and just as you do with “elohim”, you are not going to change your mind or care what the evidence says.
And therefore, our debate is really nothing but a sham… a fake. And I'm not going to be involved in a fake debate with someone who doesn't have the courage to follow the evidence wherever it leads… even if it leads to a paradigm shift in your worldview.
Now, in a previous post, I told you why I think this might be happening… why you might be doing this. I think it's like the Planck Problem with you.
should i quote more about what you have ignored about francis points?
I thought whats in bold is funnny.Seriously im tired of your games, and just because you THINK the only reason im saying these things is because im some sort of brat, but thats not the case. There are 3 other individuals including Francis who seems to be fair and gives you the benefit of the doubt believes your being unfair.
seriuosly whats wrong with you?Sometimes i cant till if your either crazy or your doing these things in purpose.
I hope your crazy.Hi Everyone,
It looks like Francis decided to quit the debate with Mike.
He said proving The Truth was the goal of the debate,
but it now appears that he meant only Francis' truth!Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2011,16:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 30 2011,06:21) As you know you have not disproved anything that we have proven
As your hero Francis says, nothing but mathematics can be PROVEN. So what is it that your “WE” have PROVEN?Keith, is being called “elohim” proof of being God Almighty? NO, right? But for years, people have been pointing to John 1:1 and saying, “Well, it says he's “God”, so that's good enough for me.”
But I have easily DISPROVEN that being called “theos” in John 1:1 makes Jesus God Almighty.
MikeThat is wishful thinking isn't it, since being called Elohim or Theos “can mean one is God Almighty“? So have you disproved anything? Of course you haven’t. All you have done is ignored the tons of evidence presented by the thousands even millions of believers that know he is God Almighty, not only because of the scriptures that tells them he is but because of the fact Jesus is currently fulfilling the role of being their God in their everyday lives. They know by the Spirit that Jesus is God.
Your evidence and proofs against what the scriptures say and the Forefathers teach down to this day is bleak and scarce isn't it Mike?
You should be a JW or Mormon for they teach Polytheism like you do.
It is really hillarious that somehow you think you can disprove what has been believed by millions from the early first century till the present, especially since most all of the evidence and writings in history are against you. Ha Ha.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2011,16:13) Satan in an effort to get people to break God's commandment by worshipping someone other than God. And it has been accepted by illogical and weak minded men who throw intelligence to the wind by not just claiming, but INSISTING that a Priest OF God can actually BE the God he is the Priest of…………..among many other assinine claims.
Sure MikeIsaiah, the Apostles, John, Philip, Peter, Jude the ForeFathers and the many millions of Trinitarians that even died for their faith, not to mention AT Roberston, Mathew Henry, Martin Luther, James Strong, and many many more, all had weak minds to Mike.
How arrogant is it for one to believe that he has a strong mind because he dosen't believe Jesus is God, and saying that men like the ones mentioned above are weak minded?
You are something else man.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2011,16:13) Keith, do me a favor like I asked a few posts back, and show me the error in anything I claimed in that post. Show me where I'm mistaken. And if you can't, which is obvious by your choice to post insults instead of refuting the points I made, then accept what I say as truth and expect much more of it during this debate.
mikeYou haven't said anything new that we have not already refuted. I am not going to sift through your stuff when you have not responded to most of my points in this thread.
WJ
Ed J…
Quote It looks like Francis decided to quit the debate with Mike. He said proving The Truth was the goal of the debate, but it now appears that he meant only Francis' truth! Ed… Ed… Ed… Ed… C'mon Ed, I'm not quitting and I did not give you any cause to make such a statement.
I'm very busy… and with Mike's blessing… we both went into this debate with no time limits between posts. If I ever choose to quit, I am brave enough and have enough intellectual and personal integrity to tell you if I will be quitting. So if you don't hear from me, don't go and make rash, unfounded, baseless statement/rumours/gossip about me quitting.
One of the things I have been doing is collecting all the information I can which will be part of my case for Elohim… for Hebrews 1:8… and for Psalms 45:6.
I am entering waters that I am not completely familiar with in terms of variants and the process Jewish translators and scholars go through in their effort to discover the original words and intent of the authors of the above passages. So I've been visiting Jewish synagogues and reading Jewish literature and commentary/midrash to better help me understand how to put my case together for clarity purposes.
I'm not as smart as you or Mike, so the process is a bit slow for me. Please don't be impatient simply because I'm not as smart as you. I wish I was as smart as you… and I bet everyone in here wish they were as smart as you… but I will never be as smart as you… so I must do the best I can.
Surely a smart person like yourself can understand this. Correct?
Respectfully
FrancisQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2011,10:37) Hi Marty, You have spoken correctly this time. GOD is the Father of Jesus. NOT God's Holy Spirit. God's Holy Spirit is the “tool” God used to impregnate Mary, like a human male will impregnate someone BY MEANS OF his penis. But the penis does not become the father of the child anymore than the PART OF God He used to impregnate Mary became the father of Jesus.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike:The point that was being made is that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God and not a “Third Person” of some Tri-une God.
But that the Holy Ghost is called God here is a scripture for you to consider:
Quote Acts 5
1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (francis @ Feb. 01 2011,06:25) Ed J… Quote It looks like Francis decided to quit the debate with Mike. He said proving The Truth was the goal of the debate, but it now appears that he meant only Francis' truth! Ed… Ed… Ed… Ed… C'mon Ed, I'm not quitting and I did not give you any cause to make such a statement.
I'm very busy… and with Mike's blessing… we both went into this debate with no time limits between posts. If I ever choose to quit, I am brave enough and have enough intellectual and personal integrity to tell you if I will be quitting. So if you don't hear from me, don't go and make rash, unfounded, baseless statement/rumours/gossip about me quitting.
One of the things I have been doing is collecting all the information I can which will be part of my case for Elohim… for Hebrews 1:8… and for Psalms 45:6.
I am entering waters that I am not completely familiar with in terms of variants and the process Jewish translators and scholars go through in their effort to discover the original words and intent of the authors of the above passages. So I've been visiting Jewish synagogues and reading Jewish literature and commentary/midrash to better help me understand how to put my case together for clarity purposes.
I'm not as smart as you or Mike, so the process is a bit slow for me. Please don't be impatient simply because I'm not as smart as you. I wish I was as smart as you… and I bet everyone in here wish they were as smart as you… but I will never be as smart as you… so I must do the best I can.
Surely a smart person like yourself can understand this. Correct?
Respectfully
Francis
Sorry Francis,Perhaps I misunderstood your words…
Quote (francis @ Jan. 28 2011,10:43)
I'm not interested in particpating in a sham. I'm not interested in having a debate with someone who cares nothing about the truth or evidence or facts.Again sorry,
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (942767 @ Jan. 31 2011,14:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2011,10:37) Hi Marty, You have spoken correctly this time. GOD is the Father of Jesus. NOT God's Holy Spirit. God's Holy Spirit is the “tool” God used to impregnate Mary, like a human male will impregnate someone BY MEANS OF his penis. But the penis does not become the father of the child anymore than the PART OF God He used to impregnate Mary became the father of Jesus.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike:The point that was being made is that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God and not a “Third Person” of some Tri-une God.
But that the Holy Ghost is called God here is a scripture for you to consider:
Quote Acts 5
1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty“But the Holy Spirit is never called the Father is he?“.
Isn't that rather strange to you especially in light of Matthew 28:19 and many other scriptures that show the Father and the Holy Spirit as being distinct?
Like the scriptures I gave you and you just glossed over and didn't give your explanation for each one.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 01 2011,06:56) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 31 2011,14:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2011,10:37) Hi Marty, You have spoken correctly this time. GOD is the Father of Jesus. NOT God's Holy Spirit. God's Holy Spirit is the “tool” God used to impregnate Mary, like a human male will impregnate someone BY MEANS OF his penis. But the penis does not become the father of the child anymore than the PART OF God He used to impregnate Mary became the father of Jesus.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike:The point that was being made is that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God and not a “Third Person” of some Tri-une God.
But that the Holy Ghost is called God here is a scripture for you to consider:
Quote Acts 5
1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty“But the Holy Spirit is never called the Father is he?“.
Isn't that rather strange to you especially in light of Matthew 28:19 and many other scriptures that show the Father and the Holy Spirit as being distinct?
Like the scriptures I gave you and you just glossed over and didn't give your explanation for each one.
WJ
Hi Keith:What is strange is that in spite of your being shown the truth that you want to continue with your doctrine which states that the Holy Ghost is a “Third Person” of a Tri-une God.
But, I have done my best to show you the truth, and so, go right ahead with what you teach.
Both you and I will be held accountable for what we teach.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 31 2011,14:25) The point that was being made is that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God…
But wait Marty,You said the Holy Ghost is the Father, which means that Jesus is the “Son of the Holy Ghost”.
So when you say…
“The point that was being made is that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God…”
Shouldn't you just say…
“The point that was being made is that the Father is the Spirit of God”?
Does that make any sense to you? Just try it Marty, replace the words “Holy Spirit” and The “Spirit” with the words Father and see how that works in most of the scriptures.
For instance…
'But when the (the Father) is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the (Father) of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 15:26
Did Jesus send the Father? Is the Father proceeding from himself?
WJ
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 31 2011,15:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 01 2011,06:56) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 31 2011,14:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2011,10:37) Hi Marty, You have spoken correctly this time. GOD is the Father of Jesus. NOT God's Holy Spirit. God's Holy Spirit is the “tool” God used to impregnate Mary, like a human male will impregnate someone BY MEANS OF his penis. But the penis does not become the father of the child anymore than the PART OF God He used to impregnate Mary became the father of Jesus.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike:The point that was being made is that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God and not a “Third Person” of some Tri-une God.
But that the Holy Ghost is called God here is a scripture for you to consider:
Quote Acts 5
1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty“But the Holy Spirit is never called the Father is he?“.
Isn't that rather strange to you especially in light of Matthew 28:19 and many other scriptures that show the Father and the Holy Spirit as being distinct?
Like the scriptures I gave you and you just glossed over and didn't give your explanation for each one.
WJ
Hi Keith:What is strange is that in spite of your being shown the truth that you want to continue with your doctrine which states that the Holy Ghost is a “Third Person” of a Tri-une God.
But, I have done my best to show you the truth, and so, go right ahead with what you teach.
Both you and I will be held accountable for what we teach.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyLet it be known, I hold to all of the scriptures and Jesus very own words and you don't.
So in light of that you have the gull to tell me about my doctrine being wrong? Ha Ha.
WJ
hello worshippingjesus, i have a question i would like answered by a trinitarian and i see you may be one ?
why did yahshua say that he could only do what he saw his father doing?
thankyou.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 01 2011,07:11) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 31 2011,14:25) The point that was being made is that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God…
But wait Marty,You said the Holy Ghost is the Father, which means that Jesus is the “Son of the Holy Ghost”.
So when you say…
“The point that was being made is that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God…”
Shouldn't you just say…
“The point that was being made is that the Father is the Spirit of God”?
Does that make any sense to you? Just try it Marty, replace the words “Holy Spirit” and The “Spirit” with the words Father and see how that works in most of the scriptures.
For instance…
'But when the (the Father) is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the (Father) of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 15:26
Did Jesus send the Father? Is the Father proceeding from himself?
WJ
Hi Keith:What I said was that the Holy Ghost is God's Spirit.
God is a living person with a mind, a will, and emotions. His
Spirit is His life.Just as you and I are a living soul, with a mind, a will, and emotions. Our spirit is the person that we are as defined by the life that we live.
My spirit is not distinct from me.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 01 2011,07:14) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 31 2011,15:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 01 2011,06:56) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 31 2011,14:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 31 2011,10:37) Hi Marty, You have spoken correctly this time. GOD is the Father of Jesus. NOT God's Holy Spirit. God's Holy Spirit is the “tool” God used to impregnate Mary, like a human male will impregnate someone BY MEANS OF his penis. But the penis does not become the father of the child anymore than the PART OF God He used to impregnate Mary became the father of Jesus.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike:The point that was being made is that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God and not a “Third Person” of some Tri-une God.
But that the Holy Ghost is called God here is a scripture for you to consider:
Quote Acts 5
1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty“But the Holy Spirit is never called the Father is he?“.
Isn't that rather strange to you especially in light of Matthew 28:19 and many other scriptures that show the Father and the Holy Spirit as being distinct?
Like the scriptures I gave you and you just glossed over and didn't give your explanation for each one.
WJ
Hi Keith:What is strange is that in spite of your being shown the truth that you want to continue with your doctrine which states that the Holy Ghost is a “Third Person” of a Tri-une God.
But, I have done my best to show you the truth, and so, go right ahead with what you teach.
Both you and I will be held accountable for what we teach.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyLet it be known, I hold to all of the scriptures and Jesus very own words and you don't.
So in light of that you have the gull to tell me about my doctrine being wrong? Ha Ha.
WJ
Hi Keith:Jesus called the Holy Ghost, “the Third Person of a Tri-une God?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thankful @ Jan. 31 2011,15:35) hello worshippingjesus, i have a question i would like answered by a trinitarian and i see you may be one ? why did yahshua say that he could only do what he saw his father doing?
thankyou.
Hi And welcome!Good question, the answer is because he is in very nature God, (Phil 2:6 NIV) like the Father.
His statement is proof of his deity for what other man or woman could say “That they “could only do what they see the Father do“?
This means he is in perfect unity with the Father and unlike every other man who “does not” nor “cannot” do only what they see the Father do, Jesus who is perfect in nature with the Father as God, can do all things he sees the Father do.
Unless you think you are perfect like the Father.
WJ
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 31 2011,15:36)
What I said was that the Holy Ghost is God's Spirit.
Hi MartyNo what you said was…
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2011,13:13) Hi WJ: The answer is yes, the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus.
Which interprets to the Holy Spirit is the Father.Jesus never said this did he?
WJ
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 31 2011,15:54) Jesus called the Holy Ghost, “the Third Person of a Tri-une God?
MartyJesus made it clear that the Holy Ghost was “another” and not the Father proceeding from himself.
And I will pray “the Father, and “he (the Father) shall give you ANOTHER Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16
Greek for Another also means “other”.
Jesus also said…
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of “the Father”, and of “the Son, and of “the Holy Ghost“: Matt 28:19
Do you accept Jesus words Marty, or will you continue to hold onto your false doctrine that the Holy Spirit is the Father and Jesus is the Son of the Holy Spirit?
WJ
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