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Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 24 2011,04:37) Hi Mike, Quote No, get YOUR facts straight…………and read what I actually wrote before spouting off:
No Mike, It seems that THEOS is used differently than Elohim. because for Certain theos is used to present a “supreme being”. Just put the defintions side by side and you can see that they dont totally match up. Everything is based on the Context once again.
Now it is YOU who is saying “theos” isn't really a plausible rendering for “elohim” because “theos” is used to represent a “SUPREME BEING”. That is what I was arguing about the English word “god” all along. “God” is not really a good fit for “elohim” because “elohim” could mean people other than God while “God” to us almost without exception means “SUPREME BEING”.But let me ask you these for clarity:
1. Does the Hebrew translation of the NT revert all the “theos” back into “elohim”? Yes.
2. When Jesus says, “He called them 'theos', to whom the word of 'Theos' came”, were the first “theos” mentioned “SUPREME BEINGS”? If not, then your argument is unfounded.
mike
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 24 2011,04:37)
1. ITs you who stated that Jesus was not God becasue it was used as a Title. Therefore we asked u to prove it, and have been debating that ever since.
No, it was Francis who made the claim saying, in essence, “God calls Jesus 'God' in Hebrews 1:8……….therefore Jesus must be God Almighty”.Now we've all come to agree that his claim is not solid, because many who were NOT God Almighty were also called “elohim”. And as soon as Francis catches up with his response to me, and acknowledges what the rest of us have acknowledged, then we will move forward arguing CONTEXT of Heb 1:8 and find out if that particular “elohim” DID refer to God Almighty or not. Okay?
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 24 2011,04:37)
You dont even know what the “Son” means in reference to Eternity with God. How can you prove that what God refers to as a SON is the very same THING as Sons and Fathers in the Earth.
Tell me why it wouldn't. Did not God communicate with us using words that WE would understand? Did He speak in tongues so that He sounded like nothing more than a clanging cymbal to us? Of course not. Our God used words and terms and phrases that were understandable TO US. When He said He had begotten a Son, He knew EXACTLY how we would understand those words.D, can you think of any reason at all that the co-equal, co-eternal Godhead would have decided to use the words “father” and “son” to describe their relationship with each other……………KNOWING HOW WE WOULD UNDERSTAND THOSE WORDS?
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 24 2011,04:37)
But the context and several letters from Paul prove that Jesus is THE IMAGE of God. Deborah was merely human, and was NO WAY alike Jesus. Just with that proves alot.
Jesus did what was not HUMANLY possible.
D, answer the DIRECT question with a DIRECT answer. DOES GOD ALMIGHTY HAVE A GOD?And being the IMAGE OF someone means you are not actually that someone you are the image OF. That's common sense.
And Moses also did what was “HUMANLY impossible”. And he was called “God”. And God gave him powers to perform miracles, too. God even gave him his own prophet, Aaron.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 24 2011,04:37)
And thats why i asked you if you agree that the “theos” from hebrews 1:1 is God Supreme. and IF thats GOD than every other Theos in that chapter is also defined as a “supreme being” unless proven otherwise.
So now what? Are we right back to the drawing board? What you attempt to now do with “theos” is the same thing you all used to do with “elohim”. But Jesus used the word “theos” to describe MEN. Yet you now claim every mention of “theos” refers to the “SUPREME BEING”?
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 24 2011,04:37)
But You have YET to acknowledge that being Called Elohim COULD mean that one is God.
No, I acknowledged that to Keith a week ago and to you at least three times now. It's kind of a no-brainer anyway, since many times God Almighty was called “elohim” – so obviously that word COULD be used to refer to God Almighty.mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2011,06:15)
EdOh I see. I have to come to a place where I “agree” with your proposed truth or I am running away? Ha Ha. Some of us are smart enough to not waste our time going in circles with someone who is already convinced.
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 23 2011,02:47) My goal is merely to show that truth; if you choose to ignore “The Truth”, it is your choice.
If your choice then is to not agree to the truth, it is (by default) you choosing to agree to a lie! (John 8:44)
Ha Ha EDYou mean your understanding of the truth or your personal interpretation of the scriptures.
There is that mirror again. You see Ed that is what we have been saying to you is that you should listen to the truth! But since you have decided to reject the truth I have shown you then there is no need to continue, right?
WJ
Quote (francis @ Jan. 22 2011,23:09) Quote Mike wrote to Keith:
But it's not right for you to make this thread in support OF Francis, but then try to wrangle control of the debate away from him. I will wait for him, so you too will have to wait a little longer.If you both want to take over our debate, I won't hold it against either of you… and wouldn't consider that Keith is trying to “wrangle control of the debate away from ” me.
So let me know what you and Keith want to do.
Hi FrancisMike and I have been at it for awhile. I am enjoying the debate you and Mike are having.
The only reason I created this thread was so others could respond to points that you or Mike make.
It is not my intention to draw from the debate. Mike doesn't have to respond here but could just focus on his debate with you but it seems he can't help it. In fact Mikes 1st response was to Dennison over something ED said. He didn't have to get involved.
Anyways I think I will back off some and let you guys have a chance. Keep up the good work of bringing the truth my friend.
Love ya Keith
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 24 2011,08:12) Quote (francis @ Jan. 22 2011,23:09) Quote Mike wrote to Keith:
But it's not right for you to make this thread in support OF Francis, but then try to wrangle control of the debate away from him. I will wait for him, so you too will have to wait a little longer.If you both want to take over our debate, I won't hold it against either of you… and wouldn't consider that Keith is trying to “wrangle control of the debate away from ” me.
So let me know what you and Keith want to do.
Hi FrancisMike and I have been at it for awhile. I am enjoying the debate you and Mike are having.
The only reason I created this thread was so others could respond to points that you or Mike make.
It is not my intention to draw from the debate. Mike doesn't have to respond here but could just focus on his debate with you but it seems he can't help it. In fact Mikes 1st response was to Dennison over something ED said. He didn't have to get involved.
Anyways I think I will back off some and let you guys have a chance. Keep up the good work of bringing the truth my friend.
Love ya Keith
Keith,Don't hold back on account of Mike's whining. He could totally ignore this thread which is what I would do. Want a little cheese with your whine Mike?
What are you talking about, Jack? I'm not whining about anything at all. I just want us to wait for Francis to catch up before moving forward.
You are something else, Jack.
mike
Hi Mike,
Quote Now it is YOU who is saying “theos” isn't really a plausible rendering for “elohim” because “theos” is used to represent a “SUPREME BEING”. That is what I was arguing about the English word “god” all along. “God” is not really a good fit for “elohim” because “elohim” could mean people other than God while “God” to us almost without exception means “SUPREME BEING”.
No Mike, as i said before everything is based on Context even Theos.
And God.
I can say that “James bond” is the God of the ladies, but doenst make James bond a true God at all.Get what im saying?
Quote But let me ask you these for clarity: 1. Does the Hebrew translation of the NT revert all the “theos” back into “elohim”? Yes.
Honestly Idk, everything needs to be interpreted considering context.Quote 2. When Jesus says, “He called them 'theos', to whom the word of 'Theos' came”, were the first “theos” mentioned “SUPREME BEINGS”? If not, then your argument is unfounded.
What are u talking about?
biblical Verse?Hi Mike,
Quote No, it was Francis who made the claim saying, in essence, “God calls Jesus 'God' in Hebrews 1:8……….therefore Jesus must be God Almighty”.
thats between u and francis than, Im not him so i have dont remember when he made that point nor do i know his exact line of reasoning becasue obviously im not francis.Quote Now we've all come to agree that his claim is not solid, because many who were NOT God Almighty were also called “elohim”. And as soon as Francis catches up with his response to me, and acknowledges what the rest of us have acknowledged, then we will move forward arguing CONTEXT of Heb 1:8 and find out if that particular “elohim” DID refer to God Almighty or not. Okay?
Actually is not just Reference in of God almighty but the reference if a “supreme being” was mentioned.
For example the calf was called a “elohim”, which the subject meant they were calling the calf a “supreme being”.
When Paul was presenting the “unknown god” he used theos to present a “supreme being”. Also he notice thier suppposed “supreme beings”get what im saying?
Quote Tell me why it wouldn't. Did not God communicate with us using words that WE would understand? Did He speak in tongues so that He sounded like nothing more than a clanging cymbal to us? Of course not. Our God used words and terms and phrases that were understandable TO US. When He said He had begotten a Son, He knew EXACTLY how we would understand those words.
Thats actually not true. Jesus said alot of things and people didnt get it at all. Jesus said he was the bread of life, and the people thought they had to “eat him” lol.
So God used alot of examples that we didnt understand.Actually Jesus said that we can only understand if have the understanding of the spirit.
Quote D, can you think of any reason at all that the co-equal, co-eternal Godhead would have decided to use the words “father” and “son” to describe their relationship with each other……………KNOWING HOW WE WOULD UNDERSTAND THOSE WORDS?
Actually i think God reveals his truth to whom he wants to.
Just like when Peter had revelation from the FAther of who Jesus really is.
Its as simple as that.Lol why would u think anyone without Gods spirit of truth could understand the spiritual truths of God?
Quote D, answer the DIRECT question with a DIRECT answer. DOES GOD ALMIGHTY HAVE A GOD? And being the IMAGE OF someone means you are not actually that someone you are the image OF. That's common sense.
Lol MIKE, your question is on the premise that you view Jesus as a seperate person from God.
God Almighty that includes Jesus does not have seperate person over them.and, being the literal image of someone does mean u are that someone. This Alias of Simplyforgiven on a forum is only a symbol of who i am, and holds the same exact beliefs and writings that I have as a person, so its still Dennison.
your commonsense is debatable.The Tabernacle had God fullness inside also right?
Quote And Moses also did what was “HUMANLY impossible”. And he was called “God”. And God gave him powers to perform miracles, too. God even gave him his own prophet, Aaron.
Soooo Moses stopped sinnning all on his own, was also perfect and also gave up his life to save everyone from sin?Quote So now what? Are we right back to the drawing board? What you attempt to now do with “theos” is the same thing you all used to do with “elohim”. But Jesus used the word “theos” to describe MEN. Yet you now claim every mention of “theos” refers to the “SUPREME BEING”?
Depending on context mike, ACtually the Psalsm 82 gave that picture and Jesus quoted it, butttt we know that they die like fallen princes soooooo they are obviously not Gods at all.
Probably the idea of it, just like the molten calf.Quote No, I acknowledged that to Keith a week ago and to you at least three times now. It's kind of a no-brainer anyway, since many times God Almighty was called “elohim” – so obviously that word COULD be used to refer to God Almighty. mike
I told u to ignore that, I dont remember u stating that.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 24 2011,07:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2011,06:15)
EdOh I see. I have to come to a place where I “agree” with your proposed truth or I am running away? Ha Ha. Some of us are smart enough to not waste our time going in circles with someone who is already convinced.
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 23 2011,02:47) My goal is merely to show that truth; if you choose to ignore “The Truth”, it is your choice.
If your choice then is to not agree to the truth, it is (by default) you choosing to agree to a lie! (John 8:44)
Ha Ha EDYou mean your understanding of the truth or your personal interpretation of the scriptures.
There is that mirror again. You see Ed that is what we have been saying to you is that you should listen to the truth! But since you have decided to reject the truth I have shown you then there is no need to continue, right?
WJ
Hi WJ,Wrong:
No, I mean your understanding of truth lines up with
what the systems of religion have taught you. (Col.2:22)
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.Do you understand “Parallax”? Do you understand the purpose of “Bible Study”?
There is an underlying truth to what we all believe. “The Truth” remains constant.
Truth does not change over time, as our perception may indeed change over time.
The Truth can be more fully explored by looking at it from more directions than one.That's the essence of what God talks about in Isa.1:18.
“Come now, and let us reason together, saith The LORD”
When you choose to stop reasoning together, are you not
forsaking the assembling of ourselves together (Heb. 10:25)You can run from “The Truth”, but you can not hide! (Eph.5:13)
When you choose to run, are you not running from “The Truth”?
Does “The Bible” not talk about standing? “stand fast in one spirit,
with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel” (Phil.1:27)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgThe Truth cannot be debated nor needs defending because its Abosolute
The Concept of Truth is beyond our understanding.And its only the limited knowledge that we actually need in which is revealed by God.
From there, its only your opinion or interpretation of Scriptures.Truth is, that You will not understand John testimony about Christ unless you have a Testimony with Christ.
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 24 2011,17:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 24 2011,07:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2011,06:15)
EdOh I see. I have to come to a place where I “agree” with your proposed truth or I am running away? Ha Ha. Some of us are smart enough to not waste our time going in circles with someone who is already convinced.
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 23 2011,02:47) My goal is merely to show that truth; if you choose to ignore “The Truth”, it is your choice.
If your choice then is to not agree to the truth, it is (by default) you choosing to agree to a lie! (John 8:44)
Ha Ha EDYou mean your understanding of the truth or your personal interpretation of the scriptures.
There is that mirror again. You see Ed that is what we have been saying to you is that you should listen to the truth! But since you have decided to reject the truth I have shown you then there is no need to continue, right?
WJ
Hi WJ,Wrong:
No, I mean your understanding of truth lines up with
what the systems of religion have taught you. (Col.2:22)
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.Do you understand “Parallax”? Do you understand the purpose of “Bible Study”?
There is an underlying truth to what we all believe. “The Truth” remains constant.
Truth does not change over time, as our perception may indeed change over time.
The Truth can be more fully explored by looking at it from more directions than one.That's the essence of what God talks about in Isa.1:18.
“Come now, and let us reason together, saith The LORD”
When you choose to stop reasoning together, are you not
forsaking the assembling of ourselves together (Heb. 10:25)You can run from “The Truth”, but you can not hide! (Eph.5:13)
When you choose to run, are you not running from “The Truth”?
Does “The Bible” not talk about standing? “stand fast in one spirit,
with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel” (Phil.1:27)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi WJ,The diversity in our understandings of Scripture should cause us to…
1) Look deeper into the Scriptures.
2) Reexamine and align our own beliefs to “the Word”!
3) Explain each and every point we wish to make using Scriptural backing!
Here is the link… https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….st=1260 <– Sixth Post from the topGod bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 24 2011,17:36) The Concept of Truth is beyond our understanding.
Hi SF,Why would you say this?
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 24 2011,02:01) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 24 2011,17:36) The Concept of Truth is beyond our understanding.
Hi SF,Why would you say this?
Ed J
Maybe because of statements like this…For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:9
Jesus spoke many things in secret or in parables. Only those who have the Spirit of Truth will know and understand the truth as it is revealed to them.
Some here think that they can know him who is the Truth just by reading the Bible, but Jesus said…
“Search the scriptures; for in them 'ye think” ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And “ye will not come to me“, that ye might have life. John 5:39, 40
The very fact that Jesus says you must “Come to him” for life is overlooked and not understood. Why did Jesus not say come to the Father for life? It is because he is the “Life” and apart from him you cannot have life nor the Father.
In Hebrew culture that would be no less than “idolatry” for a man to claim that all men must come to him for life. But the Jesus is not God crowd stumble over this truth and do not connect the dots.
Jesus says the scriptures are about him and that men were to give him the “Same” honour they give the Father or God. The Bible is a Biography of God and Jesus takes claim to it. But many will not come to him, and therefore will not know the truths that are revealed in the scriptures.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2011,03:16) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 24 2011,02:01) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 24 2011,17:36) The Concept of Truth is beyond our understanding.
Hi SF,Why would you say this?
Ed J
Maybe because of statements like this…For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:9
Jesus spoke many things in secret or in parables. Only those who have the Spirit of Truth will know and understand the truth as it is revealed to them.
Some here think that they can know him who is the Truth just by reading the Bible, but Jesus said…
“Search the scriptures; for in them 'ye think” ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And “ye will not come to me“, that ye might have life. John 5:39, 40
The very fact that Jesus says you must “Come to him” for life is overlooked and not understood. Why did Jesus not say come to the Father for life? It is because he is the “Life” and apart from him you cannot have life nor the Father.
In Hebrew culture that would be no less than “idolatry” for a man to claim that all men must come to him for life. But the Jesus is not God crowd stumble over this truth and do not connect the dots.
Jesus says the scriptures are about him and that men were to give him the “Same” honour they give the Father or God. The Bible is a Biography of God and Jesus takes claim to it. But many will not come to him, and therefore will not know the truths that are revealed in the scriptures.
WJ
Hi WJ,So do you believe truth is beyond our understanding then?
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 24 2011,11:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2011,03:16) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 24 2011,02:01) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 24 2011,17:36) The Concept of Truth is beyond our understanding.
Hi SF,Why would you say this?
Ed J
Maybe because of statements like this…For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:9
Jesus spoke many things in secret or in parables. Only those who have the Spirit of Truth will know and understand the truth as it is revealed to them.
Some here think that they can know him who is the Truth just by reading the Bible, but Jesus said…
“Search the scriptures; for in them 'ye think” ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And “ye will not come to me“, that ye might have life. John 5:39, 40
The very fact that Jesus says you must “Come to him” for life is overlooked and not understood. Why did Jesus not say come to the Father for life? It is because he is the “Life” and apart from him you cannot have life nor the Father.
In Hebrew culture that would be no less than “idolatry” for a man to claim that all men must come to him for life. But the Jesus is not God crowd stumble over this truth and do not connect the dots.
Jesus says the scriptures are about him and that men were to give him the “Same” honour they give the Father or God. The Bible is a Biography of God and Jesus takes claim to it. But many will not come to him, and therefore will not know the truths that are revealed in the scriptures.
WJ
Hi WJ,So do you believe truth is beyond our understanding then?
EdI believe that Gods Spiritual Truth is only understood by Revelation of the Spirit of Truth.
For instance Peter nor the disciples knew that Jesus was the “Son of God” until it was revealed by the Father.
People still do not know that Jesus is the Son of God though they say they do. For the Spirit has not revealed to them what that means.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2011,03:36) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 24 2011,11:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 25 2011,03:16) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 24 2011,02:01) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 24 2011,17:36) The Concept of Truth is beyond our understanding.
Hi SF,Why would you say this?
Ed J
Maybe because of statements like this…For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:9
Jesus spoke many things in secret or in parables. Only those who have the Spirit of Truth will know and understand the truth as it is revealed to them.
Some here think that they can know him who is the Truth just by reading the Bible, but Jesus said…
“Search the scriptures; for in them 'ye think” ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And “ye will not come to me“, that ye might have life. John 5:39, 40
The very fact that Jesus says you must “Come to him” for life is overlooked and not understood. Why did Jesus not say come to the Father for life? It is because he is the “Life” and apart from him you cannot have life nor the Father.
In Hebrew culture that would be no less than “idolatry” for a man to claim that all men must come to him for life. But the Jesus is not God crowd stumble over this truth and do not connect the dots.
Jesus says the scriptures are about him and that men were to give him the “Same” honour they give the Father or God. The Bible is a Biography of God and Jesus takes claim to it. But many will not come to him, and therefore will not know the truths that are revealed in the scriptures.
WJ
Hi WJ,So do you believe truth is beyond our understanding then?
EdI believe that Gods Spiritual Truth is only understood by Revelation of the Spirit of Truth.
For instance Peter nor the disciples knew that Jesus was the “Son of God” until it was revealed by the Father.
People still do not know that Jesus is the Son of God though they say they do. For the Spirit has not revealed to them what that means.
WJ
Hi WJ,I didn't see the answer to my question in your Post? I will repeat it…
So do you believe truth is beyond our understanding then?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2011,05:57) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 19 2011,21:04) I am saying that the Tri-une formula is a fabrication because I know that the Holy Spirit is not a “Third Person” of a Tri-une God, but is the Spirit of God my Father.
Please MartyThen everytime that you bring up a scripture that we disagree with your interpretation of then we can just claim “Corruption”?
You won't do to good in your Trinitarian organization by teaching the scriptures are corrupt. You ever heard the ole expressions “One bad apple spoils the whole bunch”, and a “little leaven leavens the whole lump”?
Do you realize the Tripart formula is found in the “Didache”?
Do you realize the Didache is dated back as early as the late first century and that it is believed to be the original twelve Apostles teachings. Source
It agrees with every major extant manuscript that has the formula and that means thousands. Even if they were to find one that didn't have Matthew 28:19 in its tripart formula it would be considered corrupt because all the other thousands of Manuscripts match.
If you start teaching there is corruption in the translations we have now since the dead sea scrolls then you have lost the debate my friend.
WJ
Hi WJ:Given 1 Corinthians 2:7-13 is the Holy Spirit a Third Person of a Tri-une God or not. What does the scripture state relative to the Holy Spirit.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi WJ:
Also, your source states:
Quote It was considered by some of the Church Fathers as part of the New Testament[3] but rejected as spurious or non-canonical by others,[4] eventually not accepted into the New Testament canon. The mode of baptism does not agree with how the Apostles baptized, does it?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Jan. 25 2011,03:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2011,05:57) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 19 2011,21:04) I am saying that the Tri-une formula is a fabrication because I know that the Holy Spirit is not a “Third Person” of a Tri-une God, but is the Spirit of God my Father.
Please MartyThen everytime that you bring up a scripture that we disagree with your interpretation of then we can just claim “Corruption”?
You won't do to good in your Trinitarian organization by teaching the scriptures are corrupt. You ever heard the ole expressions “One bad apple spoils the whole bunch”, and a “little leaven leavens the whole lump”?
Do you realize the Tripart formula is found in the “Didache”?
Do you realize the Didache is dated back as early as the late first century and that it is believed to be the original twelve Apostles teachings. Source
It agrees with every major extant manuscript that has the formula and that means thousands. Even if they were to find one that didn't have Matthew 28:19 in its tripart formula it would be considered corrupt because all the other thousands of Manuscripts match.
If you start teaching there is corruption in the translations we have now since the dead sea scrolls then you have lost the debate my friend.
WJ
Hi WJ:Given 1 Corinthians 2:7-13 is the Holy Spirit a Third Person of a Tri-une God or not. What does the scripture state relative to the Holy Spirit.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I marvel that you would invoke a passage which says the Spirit “knows” and then deny that He is a Person.
KJ
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