Mikeboll64 vs francis

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 16 2011,05:09)

Hi All

In the debates thread Mike asked Francis a quesiton which I am quiet sure Francis can answer even better than I. But I will answer his question even though it is a loaded question…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,12:32)

Does having the word “elohim” applied to one necessarily mean that one is God Almighty? YES or NO?

No it depends on context that determines whether it is defined as “God Almighty”.

Question for you Mike…

Does having the word “elohim” applied to one necessarily mean that one is “NOT” God Almighty? YES or NO

Hi Keith,

Thank you for you honesty. As far as YOUR question, I believe I'VE answered it many times already, but this is a quote of what I just said on page 89:

Quote

We know from scripture that having the word “elohim” applied to you does NOT necessarily mean you are God Almighty. We know the same thing from Strong's definition of “elohim”. And that's really all there is to it.

So it seems that you and I actually ARE on the same page here. We both seem to understand that being called “elohim” does NOT absolutely mean you are God Almighty. The word CAN be used in referrence to God Almighty, and has been many times in scripture, but the word itself does not MEAN “God Almighty” and was also used as a title for others who were NOT God Almighty.

Therefore, CAN it refer to God Almighty? Of course. CAN it also refer to those who AREN'T God Almighty? Of course. So does the word itself MEAN “God Almighty”? Not a chance.

Bottom line: When that word is applied to Jesus Christ, while it COULD be implying that Jesus is God Almighty, it surely doesn't HAVE to be implying that. So anyone who ever claims Jesus is God Almighty based ONLY on the fact that he has been called by the title “god” is mistaken and speaking unscripturally.

So let's not ever make that claim on HN again………okay?

peace and love,
mike

January 15, 2011 at 11:29 pm#233320

Blocked

Quote (francis @ Jan. 16 2011,04:50)

Keep this in mind… it is apparantly your opinion that God is NOT calling Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8. I don't hear you arguing that Hebrews 1:8 MAY or COULD be interpreted as something else… but THAT IT SHOULD BE interepreted a certain way… your way. And thus if all you can argue is that it is linguistically REMOTELY POSSIBLE that Hebrews 1:8 has God calling Jesus a leader/ruler… or whatever else you can come up with… then you have not carried the day by demonstrating through irrefutable logic or context that your translation is the correct one and all these other translations (over 20 of them) are wrong.

Because if that is all you can argue, then why should I accept your translation when BOTH translations (yours and theirs) are POSSIBLE?

Hi Francis,

I'm sure that by now you have read my “irrefutable logic” that your same experts agree that the “elohim” that was applied later to Jesus was NOT a reference to God Almighty in the original Psalm, and therefore does not BECOME a reference to God Almighty upon being applied to Jesus.

But let's face facts, man. Almost every single translation, and piece of expert information available to us today is from trinitarian scholars. I hope I'm not going to be defending against the argument that 20 trinitarian translations say it this way, so it MUST be true.

I will defend my beliefs using the words of scripture as written in the Hebrew and Greeks texts available to us. And I will consider and apply any scholarly information that SUPPORTS those scriptures.

But as you have just CLEARLY been shown, your “20 translations” are flawed for two main reasons:

1. The word “elohim” being applied to one does not SCRIPTURALLY mean that one is God Almighty, and more importantly………….

2. The same experts seem to agree that in the original Psalm that Hebrews 1:8 was based upon, the word “elohim” did NOT refer to God Almighty, and therefore STILL does not refer to God Almighty when it is applied to Jesus.

Hey Francis, I don't want to debate this same stuff with you twice. I'll await your response to my “bomb”.

mike

January 15, 2011 at 11:46 pm#233324

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,17:12)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 16 2011,05:09)

Hi All

In the debates thread Mike asked Francis a quesiton which I am quiet sure Francis can answer even better than I. But I will answer his question even though it is a loaded question…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,12:32)

Does having the word “elohim” applied to one necessarily mean that one is God Almighty? YES or NO?

No it depends on context that determines whether it is defined as “God Almighty”.

Question for you Mike…

Does having the word “elohim” applied to one necessarily mean that one is “NOT” God Almighty? YES or NO

Hi Keith,

Thank you for you honesty. As far as YOUR question, I believe I'VE answered it many times already, but this is a quote of what I just said on page 89:

Quote

Ha Ha

You see Mike. I answered your question and you are not honest enough to give a straight yes or no answer to mine.

Why is that Mike?

Does having the word “elohim” applied to one necessarily mean that one is “NOT” God Almighty? YES or NO

January 16, 2011 at 12:04 am#233330

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 16 2011,09:46)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,17:12)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 16 2011,05:09)

Hi All

In the debates thread Mike asked Francis a quesiton which I am quiet sure Francis can answer even better than I. But I will answer his question even though it is a loaded question…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,12:32)

Does having the word “elohim” applied to one necessarily mean that one is God Almighty? YES or NO?

No it depends on context that determines whether it is defined as “God Almighty”.

Question for you Mike…

Does having the word “elohim” applied to one necessarily mean that one is “NOT” God Almighty? YES or NO

Hi Keith,

Thank you for you honesty. As far as YOUR question, I believe I'VE answered it many times already, but this is a quote of what I just said on page 89:

Quote

Ha Ha

You see Mike. I answered your question and you are not honest enough to give a straight yes or no answer to mine.

Why is that Mike?

Does having the word “elohim” applied to one necessarily mean that one is “NOT” God Almighty? YES or NO

NO Keith.

NO, NO, NO. Just as the word “necessarily” that I used implies.

Is that it? Is that all you have left? Good. Then we agree about the rest of my last post.

peace and love,
mike

January 16, 2011 at 1:47 am#233338

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 16 2011,09:46)

Does having the word “elohim” applied to one necessarily mean that one is “NOT” God Almighty? YES or NO

I am not sure that you can answer yes and no to this one in the same way that I can say, “have you stopped robbing banks”? Yes or no obviously doesn't work for that question either.

Not all who are called elohim are the Almighty Elohim/Theos. Is this what you are saying?

Exodus 20:23 (English-NIV)
Do not make any gods (Elohim) to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods (Elohim) of silver or gods (Elohim) of gold.

Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV)
“I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.'

Psalms is quoted in the NT here:

John 10:34 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'

Now read the next verse closely:

Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!

Even angels are called gods in Psalm 97:7. This verse is actually quoted in the Hebrews 1:6 and it is referring to the Angels.

There you have it WJ. The answer to your question.

January 16, 2011 at 2:22 am#233341

Blocked

Oh boy………….here comes the “worship” fallout from your translation of Psalm 97:7!

Let me nip it in the bud. The word used is:

shachah
1) to bow down
1a) (Qal) to bow down
1b) (Hiphil) to depress (fig)
1c) (Hithpael)
1c1) to bow down, prostrate oneself
1c1a) before superior in homage
1c1b) before God in worship
1c1c) before false gods
1c1d) before angel

Considering it is applied to Jesus, I like the NETBible translation:

NET ©
All who worship idols are ashamed, those who boast about worthless idols. All the gods bow down before him.

Or the NRSV:

NRSV ©
All worshipers of images are put to shame, those who make their boast in worthless idols; all gods bow down before him.

mike

January 17, 2011 at 2:56 am#233398

Participant

Mike,

You know what I dont like about you, Is that you think its ok to state things that arnt true, and expect for everyone to believe it just because you say so!

Quote

These guys like to run circles AROUND the actual point in question, or divert away from it, instead of addressing it head on. We'll see if you address the very simple FACT that “elohim” means “leader” and that scriptures tell of many other “elohim” besides God Almighty.

Are you flippen kidding me?
I spend 4 hours writing that long post to you, and you ignored more than half it plus the other unrefuted claims u had on there.
So how dare you?

WE show you proof, with logic, with evidence, and impacts to show you why we consider our view to be true.
And the only objections is either “ad hominens” or just stating “it isnt so, just because you disagree its not enough logic or proof”

instead of studying scripture, google “LD debate” for you can learn how to create better arguements.
nonesense mike, and im tired of your bogus claims.

January 17, 2011 at 3:30 am#233401

Baker

Participant

Anyone of you who believe un the trinity just ignore Scriptures like t8 has just given you, why?

Peace Irene

January 17, 2011 at 4:08 am#233403

Participant

Quote (francis @ Jan. 16 2011,04:50)

Hello Mike…

Now… this is where you come in.

I am a simple person who is not all that bright… and who is not an expert in Greek or Hebrew… and as I read all these translations, over 20 of them, I can plainly see that they all have Hebrews 1:8 saying that God is calling Jesus “God”.

Respectfully
Francis

Hi Francis,

I have been waiting patiently for you to respond here… https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y282077

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 17, 2011 at 4:09 am#233404

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,12:56)

Mike,

instead of studying scripture, google “LD debate” for you can learn how to create better arguements.
nonesense mike, and im tired of your bogus claims.

Hi SF,

What about 'your' claims? Do you study Scripture?

Gen.6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me;
for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Did God completely obliterate the Earth? No, Dennison God just destroyed the flesh on Earth, just the flesh on Earth!

We read: 2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens
shall pass away with a great noise, and the rudiments shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

You need to know what “the rudiments” are, so you know what is getting burned up!
Elements should have been translated rudiments; the rudiments are what is getting burned up; Dennison!

2Peter 3:10 But “the day of the Lord” will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth
also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Elements: Greek #4747 στοιχεῖον (stoicheion) stoy-khi'-on:
the elements of knowledge , principally: Rudiments.
What gets 'burned up' is the 'rudiments'! (2Peter 3:10)
Rudiments: an arrangement unable to perform it's normal function,
a fundamental skill, something uniformed. (Gen.2:17)

Col.2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col:2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world,
why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 17, 2011 at 4:09 am#233405

Participant

Hi Everyone,

Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ to you all.

Mike does a “Good Job” here… https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y282095 …

establishing that “ĔL-ō-Hêêm”(63) is not always used in reference to “YHVH”(63), who alone is “Ĕl Shăddīâ”(63).

I also have responded to Francis here… https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y282077 …

with regard to related issues of “the trinity” doctrine within scripture.
But he has either been 'running away' from “The Truth” or busy
defending his beliefs with Mike; not sure which it is yet!
But I will be sure to let you all know which it is!

Because to agree to disagree is to agree to 'a lie'; something I CANNOT do!
What I can accept is: someone who chooses to run away from “The Truth”!
Are you choosing to run away from “The Truth” Francis or will you respond?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 17, 2011 at 4:29 am#233406

Participant

Mike,

Quote

D, if you seriously think I've just said the same thing twice, then maybe your understanding is not up to this conversation. No offense, but seriously.

Seriously, im asking you for the difference between what I said and what you said. Maybe you need to level up mike, because old age can wear you down.
Oh ya no offense right?

Quote

NO. “Elohim” is DEFINED as “judge” or “ruler” or “leader”. Just as “melek” is DEFINED as “king”. “God”, on the other hand, is defined most generally as “a supernatural being who can affect our lives or nature” and more specifically as “THE supernatural being who created all things”. God is called “melek”, or “king” many times in scripture. And because of the context, we know that those mentions of “king” refer to the “supernatural being who created all things”…………but that does not mean that the word “melek” begins to mean “God”. Nor does it mean that anyone that title is applied to IS “God”.

It is the same with “elohim”. The word “elohim” in and of itself means “ruler”, not “God Almighty”. And therefore, having the title of “elohim” applied to you does NOT make you “God Almighty”.

Because that is the ONLY point I'm trying to make, and you all have been running circles around this very clear scriptural FACT. The FACT is, that just because one is called by the title of “elohim” does NOT make that one “God Almighty”. This also applies to Jesus.

I'm sure you all have many other “proofs” that Jesus is God Almighty, which I will soon dismantle. But for now, can we all agree that being referred to as “elohim” does NOT, in and of itself, mean that you are “God Almighty”?

Keith has finally agreed to this FACT………will you, D? How about you, Jack? Francis?

peace and love,
mike

You know mike,
Every word is defined by its context, in general. Thats why words have secondary meanings FYI.
God cant be compared to a King just like a Father is not like King, they all have thier requirements.
Of course melek doesnt begin to mean “God” because Melek and God have different requirements to fullfilll the role.

Quote

Actually thats not scriptural fact, thats your definition of a word…………
Doesnt mean your “fact” is what was a “fact” for Moses when he wrote or meant when using “elohim”

Your claiming this to be a Fact, when FACT IS every word is defined by Context, and we been learning this since elementry school, Mike dont you remember?
(I remember quizes where we would use the context to help find the correct definition of a word)
No, What we are stating is that “Elohim” is defined by Context, not personal preference amoung possible defintions.
This is like the hundreth time i answred this question, This is my offical answer!
The net has seconday and third definitions as well?
are you going to deny those as welll?

Here is a better question:
Net notes Elohim
1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive – singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

You claimed that “Elohim” only means “leader” (“Judges” “Ruler”)
Mike, Are you going to deny the other defintions of “Elohim” such as “gods” “gods like” “god” or “the True God”
according to the Net?

Oh and just wanted to remind you, Thanks for putting my 3-4hour work on a post down the trash, and than say im avoiding your questions. Nice.. =)

January 17, 2011 at 4:31 am#233407

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,08:09)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,12:56)

Mike,

instead of studying scripture, google “LD debate” for you can learn how to create better arguements.
nonesense mike, and im tired of your bogus claims.

Hi SF,

What about 'your' claims? Do you study Scripture?

You need to know what “the rudiments” are, so you know what is getting burned up!
Elements should have been translated rudiments; the rudiments are what is getting burned up; Dennison!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J, BUG OFF!
your annoying,

You know what, Why dont you bother MIKE, when he makes his insults or avoids good logic.

Its sad that Mike became your “God” lol (leader, ruler, Judge)

January 17, 2011 at 4:37 am#233408

Participant

more netnotes on Genesis 1:1 on Elohim.
2 sn God. This frequently used Hebrew name for God (אֱלֹהִים,’elohim ) is a plural form. When it refers to the one true God, the singular verb is normally used, as here. The plural form indicates majesty; the name stresses God’s sovereignty and incomparability – he is the “God of gods.”

January 17, 2011 at 4:44 am#233409

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,08:31)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,08:09)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,12:56)

Mike,

instead of studying scripture, google “LD debate” for you can learn how to create better arguements.
nonesense mike, and im tired of your bogus claims.

Hi SF,

What about 'your' claims? Do you study Scripture?

You need to know what “the rudiments” are, so you know what is getting burned up!
Elements should have been translated rudiments; the rudiments are what is getting burned up; Dennison!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J, BUG OFF!
your annoying,

You know what, Why dont you bother MIKE, when he makes his insults or avoids good logic.

Its sad that Mike became your “God” lol (leader, ruler, Judge)

You know what!
in second thought Ed J

Why dont you present your case to Mike, and ask him what he thinks?

Prove it to mike and see if ya agree.
hey why dont you guys have a debate about rudiments!

January 17, 2011 at 4:45 am#233410

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,14:31)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,08:09)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,12:56)

Mike,

instead of studying scripture, google “LD debate” for you can learn how to create better arguements.
nonesense mike, and im tired of your bogus claims.

Hi SF,

What about 'your' claims? Do you study Scripture?

You need to know what “the rudiments” are, so you know what is getting burned up!
Elements should have been translated rudiments; the rudiments are what is getting burned up; Dennison!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J, BUG OFF!
your annoying,

You know what, Why dont you bother MIKE, when he makes his insults or avoids good logic.

Its sad that Mike became your “God” lol (leader, ruler, Judge)

Hi Dennison,

Mike views me as his equal; it is a shame you try to elevate yourself above us both!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 17, 2011 at 4:50 am#233412

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,08:45)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,14:31)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,08:09)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,12:56)

Mike,

instead of studying scripture, google “LD debate” for you can learn how to create better arguements.
nonesense mike, and im tired of your bogus claims.

Hi SF,

What about 'your' claims? Do you study Scripture?

You need to know what “the rudiments” are, so you know what is getting burned up!
Elements should have been translated rudiments; the rudiments are what is getting burned up; Dennison!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J, BUG OFF!
your annoying,

You know what, Why dont you bother MIKE, when he makes his insults or avoids good logic.

Its sad that Mike became your “God” lol (leader, ruler, Judge)

Hi Dennison,

Mike views me as his equal; it is a shame you try to elevate yourself above us both!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

LOL
you think its EQUAL?

are you guys a TRINITY?
I highly doubt that.

Actually im pretty sure that Mike doesnt really care for your numbers…

Actually ill tell you what, lets have a small debate about mike right now.

If I can prove that mike doesnt agree with your “english gematria” Infact proves that ya's belief are not “Equal”?

Ed J,
If we are not equal how are we brothers?
Your saying that in vain, when u dont really believe it.

I feel shame for you and pity that no one believes you nor your numbers.

January 17, 2011 at 5:33 am#233422

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,14:50)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,08:45)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,14:31)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,08:09)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,12:56)

Mike,

instead of studying scripture, google “LD debate” for you can learn how to create better arguements.
nonesense mike, and im tired of your bogus claims.

Hi SF,

What about 'your' claims? Do you study Scripture?

You need to know what “the rudiments” are, so you know what is getting burned up!
Elements should have been translated rudiments; the rudiments are what is getting burned up; Dennison!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J, BUG OFF!
your annoying,

You know what, Why dont you bother MIKE, when he makes his insults or avoids good logic.

Its sad that Mike became your “God” lol (leader, ruler, Judge)

Hi Dennison,

Mike views me as his equal; it is a shame you try to elevate yourself above us both!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

LOL
you think its EQUAL?

are you guys a TRINITY?
I highly doubt that.

(1) Actually im pretty sure that Mike doesnt really care for your numbers…

(2) Actually ill tell you what, lets have a small debate about mike right now.

(3) If I can prove that mike doesnt agree with your “english gematria” (4)Infact proves that ya's belief are not “Equal”?

Ed J,
(5) If we are not equal how are we brothers?
(6) Your saying that in vain, when u dont really believe it.

I feel shame for you and pity that no one believes you nor your numbers.

Hi Dennison,

1) I don't own any numbers.

2) Explain what you mean?

3) What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

4) (Job.36:2) Here is what [יה] YÄ (Exodus 20:7 / Deut.5:11) says:
Ezekiel 33:17,20 Yet the children of thy people say, The way
of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
Ezekiel 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O
ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than
your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

5) You do not consider me to be your equal?

6) Your judgments of me only effects you.

7) YHVH has orchestrated the “Intelligent design”, not me;
no need for you to feel either shame or pity.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 17, 2011 at 5:35 am#233424

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,09:33)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,14:50)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,08:45)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,14:31)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 17 2011,08:09)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 17 2011,12:56)

Mike,

instead of studying scripture, google “LD debate” for you can learn how to create better arguements.
nonesense mike, and im tired of your bogus claims.

Hi SF,

What about 'your' claims? Do you study Scripture?

You need to know what “the rudiments” are, so you know what is getting burned up!
Elements should have been translated rudiments; the rudiments are what is getting burned up; Dennison!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J, BUG OFF!
your annoying,

You know what, Why dont you bother MIKE, when he makes his insults or avoids good logic.

Its sad that Mike became your “God” lol (leader, ruler, Judge)

Hi Dennison,

Mike views me as his equal; it is a shame you try to elevate yourself above us both!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

LOL
you think its EQUAL?

are you guys a TRINITY?
I highly doubt that.

(1) Actually im pretty sure that Mike doesnt really care for your numbers…

(2) Actually ill tell you what, lets have a small debate about mike right now.

(3) If I can prove that mike doesnt agree with your “english gematria” (4)Infact proves that ya's belief are not “Equal”?

Ed J,
(5) If we are not equal how are we brothers?
(6) Your saying that in vain, when u dont really believe it.

I feel shame for you and pity that no one believes you nor your numbers.

Hi Dennison,

1) I don't own any numbers.

2) Explain what you mean?

3) What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

5) You do not consider me to be your equal?

6) Your judgments of me only effects you.

7) YHVH has orchestrated the “Intelligent design”, not me;
no need for you to feel either shame or pity.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

lol realy Ed?
Price of Tea ed?

nice way of avoiding a debate with Mike?

why are you scared?

January 17, 2011 at 6:38 am#233433