Mikeboll64 vs francis

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 14 2011,18:03)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:53) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 14 2011,17:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:49) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 14 2011,17:48) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:31) Mike Most of us understand that we don't have all the answers since we can't read Hebrew, Greek or Latin… Blessings Keith Hi WJ, What does not being able to read Latin have to do with us understanding “The Bible”? God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Some manuscripts were written in Latin. You know this don't you? WJ Hi WJ, Nothing in “The Bible” was originally written in Latin; didn't you know that? God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org ED We don't have the “Original Manuscripts” didn't you know that? WJ Hi WJ, We don't have any of the original Scriptures, but what does that have to do with no Scripture originally written in Latin? Do you suspect any books were, if so which? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Did I say scriptures were originally written in Latin.

ED go back and read what I said. Some early manuscripts were written in Latin.

Go away please, you are annoying.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

For Keith:

Isaiah 44:24 NET ©
This is what the Lord, your protector, says, the one who formed you in the womb: “I am the Lord, who made everything, who alone stretched out the sky, who fashioned the earth all by myself, 2

Footnote #2 says:

Isa 44:242tn The consonantal text (Kethib) has “Who [was] with me?” The marginal reading (Qere) is “from with me,” i.e., “by myself.” See BDB 87 s.v. II אֵת 4.c.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:02) The NET notes clearly say that when referring to the “One True God” it is a name. Yes Keith.  And Wikipedia, Encyclopoedia Britannica and many other sources agree with that. But you and I know different, don't we?   We know that God is a title and God has a name, right?   mike No I don't know different Mike. God has many names! WJ And is “King” one of His NAMES?  Does the definition of the Hebrew word “melek” now have “Supernatural Supreme Being Who Created the Universe” as one of ITS definitions, too?   Like I said, too much man.   mike Context Mike. WJ Please answer the question, Keith.  If “elohim” now has the definition of “God Almighty” just because the word is used in refference to Him, then “melek” must have that same definition too, right? Or could it be that “elohim” always has and always will simply mean “leader” and “melek” will always mean “king” – and neither of them have “Supernatural Supreme Being” as one of their definitions?

Hi Mike

You are so hard headed. I said context. The One True God can be identified by the word “Elohim” in its context. If not then whenever David said “In God I put my trust” we wouldn't know it is the One True God. The word God identifies God as well as so-called gods and false gods.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:10)

For Keith: Isaiah 44:24 NET © This is what the Lord, your protector, says, the one who formed you in the womb: “I am the Lord, who made everything, who alone stretched out the sky, who fashioned the earth all by myself, 2 Footnote #2 says: Isa 44:242tn The consonantal text (Kethib) has “Who [was] with me?” The marginal reading (Qere) is “from with me,” i.e., “by myself.” See BDB 87 s.v. II אֵת 4.c.

AND?…

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,10:03)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,07:45) Hi Mike Then when Moses said “In the beginning 'elohiym (God) created the heavens and the earth”, Moses wasn’t speaking of the “supernatural or supreme being who created the universe?  What are you talking about? Of course Moses was speaking of the “supernatural or supreme being who created the universe”.  But the word “elohim” does not MEAN “the supernatural or supreme being who created the universe”, does it? Hi Mike There you have it. Moses identified God the creator of all things with the word “Elohim”. WJ What a very petty thing to do, Keith.  You cut the context right out of my post and pulled a Jack.  How disappointing.   Now, why don't you answer the REST of the post? mike Mike The same reason you don't answer mine! WJ Have I stumped you Keith?    Can you not argue against the solid logic I posted?   This is what every single “Jesus is God proof” will eventually come down to.  You just never stick around long enough to see them through to the end. I asked you last week, and I'll ask you again.  Pick your BEST “Jesus is God” proof, and let's discuss it.  Only one until we've followed it through to the end.  Go ahead………….I DARE YOU.   Is that what you call “beating my chest”?   AGAIN FRANCIS, ARE YOU SEEING HOW HE WILL NOT STAND AND DEFEND HIS POINT AGAINST MY SOLID LOGIC? mike Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:57) Have I stumped you Keith?    Can you not argue against the solid logic I posted?   Ha Ha Mike Shall I say the same thing about you everytime you skip over my points and quesitons and demand answers to yours? Francis I noticed is starting to get a taste of your diversions. WJ

Keith, ask me ONE question or point me to ONE scripture, and I will discuss it with you until the cows come home. But you can't ever do that. You must bring many points and many scriptures and flood your posts with them all, because you know that under scrutiny, not one of them says anything about Jesus being God Almighty.

You asked 5 questions in one post. I DIRECTLY answered ONE of them. Yet you have not responded to my answer…………why not? Are your questions really that easy to “do away with”?

STAND AND DEFEND, MAN! That's all I'm asking of you. For once, STAND AND DEFEND the things you post. Don't just keep posting more and more things while avoiding the first thing that I DID answer. DEAL WITH MY ANSWER. Show me how my answer either confirms that Jesus is God Almighty or is unscriptual or illogical. Because I assure you, my answers are NONE OF THOSE THINGS.

As far as Francis goes, I pray to God there WON'T be any more diversions. This debate is going exactly as I hoped it would now.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,10:06)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,16:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,06:06) yet Jesus is everything that the Father is Really?  Is the Father begotten by someone? Mike No because the Father didn't come in the flesh. But the Word that was with God and was God did! If Jesus was in very nature God like the Father then he is like the Father in every way. WJ Yet your very own church fathers say Jesus was begotten before the ages.  Hmmmmm………… Yea which means before time and from eterrnity!  HMMM WJ And it also means Jesus WAS begotten while his God was NOT. Straw man. And you being a Son of your Father means you are not your Father but you are still fully human like your Father. WJ It also means I'm not the same BEING as my father. No but it means you are of the same nature, flesh. The essence of God is Spirit, the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit share that same essence. There is only One Spirit or essence that makes God, God. WJ

And it STILL means I'm NOT the same being as my father, right?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 15 2011,10:06)

WJ posted: Quote Here are the notes on why they translated it that way… 24tn Or possibly, “Your throne is God forever and ever.” This translation is quite doubtful, however, since (1) in the context the Son is being contrasted to the angels and is presented as far better than they. The imagery of God being the Son’s throne would seem to be of God being his authority. If so, in what sense could this not be said of the angels? In what sense is the Son thus contrasted with the angels? (2) The μέν…δέ (men…de) construction that connects v. 7 with v. 8 clearly lays out this contrast: “On the one hand, he says of the angels…on the other hand, he says of the Son.” Thus, although it is grammatically possible that θεός (qeos) in v. 8 should be taken as a predicate nominative, the context and the correlative conjunctions are decidedly against it. Hebrews 1:8 is thus a strong affirmation of the deity of Christ. Source Since Mike insist on using the NET notes then will he accept what the NET has to say about Heb 1:8? Keith, As you know I am not a fan of the NET Bible. But they're right on regarding Hebrews 1:8. I posted this note at PV. Thanks, Jack

I hope you will also post some of their notes that I'm about to bring up.  

Jack, did you know that NETNotes and the NWT are not the only ones who consider the POSSIBLILTY that it could be “God is your throne”?

mike

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,10:10)

For Keith: Isaiah 44:24 NET © This is what the Lord, your protector, says, the one who formed you in the womb: “I am the Lord, who made everything, who alone stretched out the sky, who fashioned the earth all by myself, 2 Footnote #2 says: Isa 44:242tn The consonantal text (Kethib) has “Who [was] with me?” The marginal reading (Qere) is “from with me,” i.e., “by myself.” See BDB 87 s.v. II אֵת 4.c.

But look at verses 6-8 Mike. In verse 6 YHWH said that He is Israel's “goel” (kinsman-redeemer). This is Christ Mike. The Father was NOT Israel's flesh and blood Redeemer. Christ was Israel's flesh and blood Redeemer. Then look a verse 8 Mike. YHWH said that he is the “Rock” and that He knows of no other “Rock.” Again, this is Christ Mike. Paul said that Christ is the “Rock” which guided the Israelites in the wilderness (1 Cor. 10). Did Paul know something that YHWH didn't know?

YHWH is Christ in verses 6-8. Now show us how YHWH becomes someone else in verse 24. Do you think you can compute this for us Mike?

Why do you make us repeat ourselves so much Mike?

Jack

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:19)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 15 2011,10:06) WJ posted: Quote Here are the notes on why they translated it that way… 24tn Or possibly, “Your throne is God forever and ever.” This translation is quite doubtful, however, since (1) in the context the Son is being contrasted to the angels and is presented as far better than they. The imagery of God being the Son’s throne would seem to be of God being his authority. If so, in what sense could this not be said of the angels? In what sense is the Son thus contrasted with the angels? (2) The μέν…δέ (men…de) construction that connects v. 7 with v. 8 clearly lays out this contrast: “On the one hand, he says of the angels…on the other hand, he says of the Son.” Thus, although it is grammatically possible that θεός (qeos) in v. 8 should be taken as a predicate nominative, the context and the correlative conjunctions are decidedly against it. Hebrews 1:8 is thus a strong affirmation of the deity of Christ. Source Since Mike insist on using the NET notes then will he accept what the NET has to say about Heb 1:8? Keith, As you know I am not a fan of the NET Bible. But they're right on regarding Hebrews 1:8. I posted this note at PV. Thanks, Jack I hope you will also post some of their notes that I'm about to bring up.   Jack, did you know that NETNotes and the NWT are not the only ones who consider the POSSIBLILTY that it could be “God is your throne”? mike

But they just explained why they didn't translate it that way and neither does any other translation but the NWT.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,10:12)

Hi Mike You are so hard headed. I said context. The One True God can be identified by the word “Elohim” in its context. If not then whenever David said “In God I put my trust” we wouldn't know it is the One True God. The word God identifies God as well as so-called gods and false gods. WJ

And I have never argued against that. In fact, I was discussing CONTEXT with our young Dennison just the other day.

What I claim, and what NONE OF YOU can refute, is that despite the fact that “elohim” is used to identify YVHV, the word does NOT start to mean “God Almighty” because of that.

Do you agree with this claim………..or can you refute it?

P.S. There is no such thing as a “so-called god” in scripture, so stop using that scripture in a false way.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,10:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:10) For Keith: Isaiah 44:24 NET © This is what the Lord, your protector, says, the one who formed you in the womb: “I am the Lord, who made everything, who alone stretched out the sky, who fashioned the earth all by myself, 2 Footnote #2 says: Isa 44:242tn The consonantal text (Kethib) has “Who [was] with me?” The marginal reading (Qere) is “from with me,” i.e., “by myself.” See BDB 87 s.v. II אֵת 4.c. AND?…

It doesn't say that no one was with Him when He created. We know the angels were there and shouted for joy when He created the earth, right?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:16)

You asked 5 questions in one post.  I DIRECTLY answered ONE of them.  Yet you have not responded to my answer…………why not?  Are your questions really that easy to “do away with”?

Mike

Because I have been in a live debate here, but this is what you said…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,16:45)

Quote Do the above scriptures say “there is no God but One”? Yes they do.  Yet we KNOW that there are others who are called by the title “elohim”, right?  So, how do you explain this dilemma since you don't accept my very logical explanation?

Game over. You just admitted that the scritpures says “there are no elohim but one”. The dilimma is with you because the Hebrew scriptures says there is “No God but one and no God beside him and no God formed before him or after him.

Yet Jesus is God, One with the Father sitting at his right hand with all authority and power and judgment.

There is your answer so don't give me the same question or claim it is a non answer or a joke because since Jesus is called God and sits next to the Father the dilimma is yours.

You have to prove he is not God in face of the scritpures and the Forefathers and Orthodox Christianity.

Now can you answer the other quesitons?

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 15 2011,10:20)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,10:10) For Keith: Isaiah 44:24 NET © This is what the Lord, your protector, says, the one who formed you in the womb: “I am the Lord, who made everything, who alone stretched out the sky, who fashioned the earth all by myself, 2 Footnote #2 says: Isa 44:242tn The consonantal text (Kethib) has “Who [was] with me?” The marginal reading (Qere) is “from with me,” i.e., “by myself.” See BDB 87 s.v. II אֵת 4.c. But look at verses 6-8 Mike. In verse 6 YHWH said that He is Israel's “goel” (kinsman-redeemer). This is Christ Mike. The Father was NOT Israel's flesh and blood Redeemer. Christ was Israel's flesh and blood Redeemer. Then look a verse 8 Mike. YHWH said that he is the “Rock” and that He knows of no other “Rock.” Again, this is Christ Mike. Paul said that Christ is the “Rock” which guided the Israelites in the wilderness (1 Cor. 10). Did Paul know something that YHWH didn't know? YHWH is Christ in verses 6-8. Now show us how YHWH becomes someone else in verse 24. Do you think you can compute this for us Mike? Why do you make us repeat ourselves so much Mike? Jack

Yes Jack. And God was called “good” and so was Jesus. Oh my! That must mean Jesus IS God!

Pick one of the titles that God and Jesus shared, and let's discuss it. Let's find out if sharing a title, (which, btw, many others also shared) in some way makes those people the same being.

God is “King of kings”. Jesus is “King of kings”. Nebuchadnezzar was “King of kings”. Artaxerxes was “King of kings”. Are they ALL God Almighty?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,10:23)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:19) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 15 2011,10:06) WJ posted: Quote Here are the notes on why they translated it that way… 24tn Or possibly, “Your throne is God forever and ever.” This translation is quite doubtful, however, since (1) in the context the Son is being contrasted to the angels and is presented as far better than they. The imagery of God being the Son’s throne would seem to be of God being his authority. If so, in what sense could this not be said of the angels? In what sense is the Son thus contrasted with the angels? (2) The μέν…δέ (men…de) construction that connects v. 7 with v. 8 clearly lays out this contrast: “On the one hand, he says of the angels…on the other hand, he says of the Son.” Thus, although it is grammatically possible that θεός (qeos) in v. 8 should be taken as a predicate nominative, the context and the correlative conjunctions are decidedly against it. Hebrews 1:8 is thus a strong affirmation of the deity of Christ. Source Since Mike insist on using the NET notes then will he accept what the NET has to say about Heb 1:8? Keith, As you know I am not a fan of the NET Bible. But they're right on regarding Hebrews 1:8. I posted this note at PV. Thanks, Jack I hope you will also post some of their notes that I'm about to bring up.   Jack, did you know that NETNotes and the NWT are not the only ones who consider the POSSIBLILTY that it could be “God is your throne”? mike But they just explained why they didn't translate it that way and neither does any other translation but the NWT. WJ

Wanna bet?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,10:27)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:16) You asked 5 questions in one post.  I DIRECTLY answered ONE of them.  Yet you have not responded to my answer…………why not?  Are your questions really that easy to “do away with”? Mike Because I have been in a live debate here, but this is what you said… Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,16:45) Quote Do the above scriptures say “there is no God but One”? Yes they do.  Yet we KNOW that there are others who are called by the title “elohim”, right?  So, how do you explain this dilemma since you don't accept my very logical explanation? Game over. You just admitted that the scritpures says “there are no elohim but one”. The dilimma is with you because the Hebrew scriptures says there is “No God but one and no God beside him and no God formed before him or after him. Yet Jesus is God, One with the Father sitting at his right hand with all authority and power and judgment. There is your answer so don't give me the same question or claim it is a non answer or a joke because since Jesus is called God and sits next to the Father the dilimma is yours. You have to prove he is not God in face of the scritpures and the Forefathers and Orthodox Christianity. Now can you answer the other quesitons? WJ WJ WJ

What was Deborah then?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:26)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,10:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:10) For Keith: Isaiah 44:24 NET © This is what the Lord, your protector, says, the one who formed you in the womb: “I am the Lord, who made everything, who alone stretched out the sky, who fashioned the earth all by myself, 2 Footnote #2 says: Isa 44:242tn The consonantal text (Kethib) has “Who [was] with me?” The marginal reading (Qere) is “from with me,” i.e., “by myself.” See BDB 87 s.v. II אֵת 4.c. AND?… It doesn't say that no one was with Him when He created.  We know the angels were there and shouted for joy when He created the earth, right?

No Mike

The Angels were not there in the Beginnig of all things for all things were created by him (Jesus) and for him and without him nothing was made that was made.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,10:32)

What was Deborah then?

Nevermind. I forgot she was a “god” with a “little g”!

Come on, man! You are too much!

I'm off to dinner. Later. Have a good weekend.

peace and love,
mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:32)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,10:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:16) You asked 5 questions in one post.  I DIRECTLY answered ONE of them.  Yet you have not responded to my answer…………why not?  Are your questions really that easy to “do away with”? Mike Because I have been in a live debate here, but this is what you said… Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,16:45) Quote Do the above scriptures say “there is no God but One”? Yes they do.  Yet we KNOW that there are others who are called by the title “elohim”, right?  So, how do you explain this dilemma since you don't accept my very logical explanation? Game over. You just admitted that the scritpures says “there are no elohim but one”. The dilimma is with you because the Hebrew scriptures says there is “No God but one and no God beside him and no God formed before him or after him. Yet Jesus is God, One with the Father sitting at his right hand with all authority and power and judgment. There is your answer so don't give me the same question or claim it is a non answer or a joke because since Jesus is called God and sits next to the Father the dilimma is yours. You have to prove he is not God in face of the scritpures and the Forefathers and Orthodox Christianity. Now can you answer the other quesitons? WJ WJ WJ       What was Deborah then?

She was a judge. She was a mortal human being. Ha Ha.

Context Mike.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,10:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,10:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:10) For Keith: Isaiah 44:24 NET © This is what the Lord, your protector, says, the one who formed you in the womb: “I am the Lord, who made everything, who alone stretched out the sky, who fashioned the earth all by myself, 2 Footnote #2 says: Isa 44:242tn The consonantal text (Kethib) has “Who [was] with me?” The marginal reading (Qere) is “from with me,” i.e., “by myself.” See BDB 87 s.v. II אֵת 4.c. AND?… It doesn't say that no one was with Him when He created.  We know the angels were there and shouted for joy when He created the earth, right? No Mike The Angels wasn't there in the Beginnig of all things for all things were created by him (Jesus) and for him and without him nothing was made that was made. WJ

Keith,

You tried to point out the “no one beside me” words. But the last thing that's said before the “no one beside me” is “fashioned the earth”.

Are you implying no one else was around when God “fashioned the earth”?

Scriptures say that angels shouted with joy, right?

I was only pointing out that NETBible's translation made more sense than the one you quoted because we know others were there.

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,18:35)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,10:32)       What was Deborah then? Nevermind.  I forgot she was a “god” with a “little g”!       Come on, man!  You are too much!   I'm off to dinner.  Later.  Have a good weekend. peace and love, mike

Mike

She wasn't God was she?

Later I hope you eat plenty of crow for dinner.

WJ

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