- This topic has 1,826 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,07:45) Hi Mike Then when Moses said “In the beginning 'elohiym (God) created the heavens and the earth”, Moses wasn’t speaking of the “supernatural or supreme being who created the universe? What are you talking about?
Of course Moses was speaking of the “supernatural or supreme being who created the universe”. But the word “elohim” does not MEAN “the supernatural or supreme being who created the universe”, does it?For example:
Psalm 2:6 NIV
“I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.”We know from later CONTEXT that this particular “king” is Jesus Christ, right? But does that now mean the the word “king” itself means “Jesus Christ”? When we say “King David”, does it really mean “Jesus Christ David”?
Of course not. Just because someone is CALLED by a TITLE does not make that title now have that person as one of the definitions of the word itself.
King still means king whether it is used of Jesus, David, or YHVH Himself. Just as “elohim” still just means “leader” whether it is used of Jesus, David, or YHVH Himself.
Can't you understand this?
I'll get to the rest of your nonsense this weekend if I have the time.
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 15 2011,08:06) WJ asked Mike: Quote Are you creating a new religion or something?
Yeap he is!Jack
Nope. Just bringing back to light the original one. You know, the one you trinitarians have butchered throughout the years!
Stay close and pay attention to the debate, Jack. You will learn more than you did in our plural god debate.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,16:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,06:06) yet Jesus is everything that the Father is
Really? Is the Father begotten by someone?
MikeNo because the Father didn't come in the flesh. But the Word that was with God and was God did!
If Jesus was in very nature God like the Father then he is like the Father in every way.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,16:51) Are you saying that it is so important that this thread be in the debates section despite how you yourself explained the debates section to Istari, that you are willing to change the title just so it can be there?
Sure why not? Why shouldn't the readers be able to see responses to your debate with Francis. I created the thread for that reason in fact look at the first page of this thread. But you didn't PM me or nothing you just had it moved.Why are you arguing about this if you don't care?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,07:45) Hi Mike Then when Moses said “In the beginning 'elohiym (God) created the heavens and the earth”, Moses wasn’t speaking of the “supernatural or supreme being who created the universe? What are you talking about?
Of course Moses was speaking of the “supernatural or supreme being who created the universe”. But the word “elohim” does not MEAN “the supernatural or supreme being who created the universe”, does it?
Hi MikeThere you have it. Moses identified God the creator of all things with the word “Elohim”.
WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 15 2011,04:24) One name three persons.
Hi Jack,Don't you mean instead: 'three persons but only two names'?
1) Jehovah .. יהוה
2) Jesus …… יהשוע
3) And… What's the HolySpirit's name? (Matt.28:19)Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 15 2011,08:15) WJ said to Mike: Quote YHVH said there is no God formed before him or after him, and he has not contradicted himself. The scripture concurs with WJ:
TO ALL:
Mikeboll has dogmatically claimed that Jesus is a god who “came into being” after YHWH. Keith has corrected Mike about this many times but Mike has given Keith a deaf ear. Isaiah 43:10 explicitly says that before and after YHWH there was no God “formed.” The LXX uses the Greek “ginomai” for “formed.” Note the word in bold in the Septuagint translation of Isaiah 43:10 below. It is the Greek “ginomai” which means “to come into being.”
43:10 γενεσθε μοι μαρτυρες καγω μαρτυς λεγει κυριος ο θεος και ο παις ον εξελεξαμην ινα γνωτε και πιστευσητε και συνητε οτι εγω ειμι εμπροσθεν μου ουκ εγενετο αλλος θεος και μετ' εμε ουκ εσται
No god came into being before or after YHWH. Therefore, Jesus did not come into being but was always “with God” (John 1:1). Mike's only option is to deny that Jesus is a god at all. This would be a step up for him. For denying that Jesus is a god at all is better than confessing Him as a god in the “same sense” as satan.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….=244799
the Roo
But that's not REALLY what Isaiah 43:10 says, is it Jack?Isaiah 43:10 NET ©
You are my witnesses,” says the Lord, “my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may consider and believe in me, and understand that I am he. No god was formed before me, and none will outlive me.It would be illogical and untrue for God to say there would be no “els” formed after Him when scripture is full of “els” who were formed after him, right? How else can He be the “El of els” if there are no other els to be the El of?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:02) The NET notes clearly say that when referring to the “One True God” it is a name.
Yes Keith. And Wikipedia, Encyclopoedia Britannica and many other sources agree with that.But you and I know different, don't we?
We know that God is a title and God has a name, right?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,16:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,04:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2011,20:39) Really guys? Still nothing? I'll post it a THIRD time. Jack, prove that you're not running and hiding right now. You seem to have plenty of time for ridicules………how about for one little answer?
Scripture says our only one true God is THE FATHER. How do you “include” the Son into this very specific statement?
Jack, would you try to answer it? Keith and SF, I would also be interested in your HONEST, SCRIPTURAL, and TO THE POINT answers.
peace and love to all of you,
mike
MikeThere you go again. Asking me the same question I have already answered here…
Oh, you mean your answer REALLY IS, “Since Jesus IS God, then it MUST include him”? I thought that was a joke or something…………not a real answer.
Hi MikeYou see what I mean? Do you see your attitude towards all those that you debate. Everyones answer is a joke to you and not a real answer. Ha Ha. Why waste our time then?
Is it possibe that Mike could ever be wrong? Ha, well Mike you have yourself and your self proclaimed interpretation of scriptures.
Most of us understand that we don't have all the answers since we can't read Hebrew, Greek or Latin so we have to trust God first and then listen by the Spirit to the God given men who were the forerunners of our faith who brings us the translations and the respective meaning of Hebrew and Greek words as well as their expert commentary.
So Mikebol, the bottom line is that I will trust their commentary and their faith and my own heart and faith before I trust your laymen view.
Blessings Keith
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 14 2011,17:19) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 15 2011,04:24) One name three persons.
Hi Jack,Don't you mean instead: 'three persons but only two names'?
EdDidn't Jesus include the Holy Spirit in the three with a singular name?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,16:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,06:06) yet Jesus is everything that the Father is
Really? Is the Father begotten by someone?
MikeNo because the Father didn't come in the flesh. But the Word that was with God and was God did!
If Jesus was in very nature God like the Father then he is like the Father in every way.
WJ
Yet your very own church fathers say Jesus was begotten before the ages. Hmmmmm…………Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:02) The NET notes clearly say that when referring to the “One True God” it is a name.
Yes Keith. And Wikipedia, Encyclopoedia Britannica and many other sources agree with that.But you and I know different, don't we?
We know that God is a title and God has a name, right?
mike
No I don't know different Mike.God has many names!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,16:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,06:06) yet Jesus is everything that the Father is
Really? Is the Father begotten by someone?
MikeNo because the Father didn't come in the flesh. But the Word that was with God and was God did!
If Jesus was in very nature God like the Father then he is like the Father in every way.
WJ
Yet your very own church fathers say Jesus was begotten before the ages. Hmmmmm…………
Yea which means before time and from eterrnity! HMMMWJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,16:51) Are you saying that it is so important that this thread be in the debates section despite how you yourself explained the debates section to Istari, that you are willing to change the title just so it can be there?
Sure why not? Why shouldn't the readers be able to see responses to your debate with Francis. I created the thread for that reason in fact look at the first page of this thread. But you didn't PM me or nothing you just had it moved.Why are you arguing about this if you don't care?
WJ
I don't care. I think you are being illogical and will cause others to accidentally post on the wrong thread. Besides, why can't people read my responses to Francis now? I don't understand how putting this thread in the debates section makes it easier for anyone to comment here OR read my debate with Francis.Like I said, do what you want. I don't have the power to move it. Ask t8.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:32) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 14 2011,17:19) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 15 2011,04:24) One name three persons.
Hi Jack,Don't you mean instead: 'three persons but only two names'?
EdDidn't Jesus include the Holy Spirit in the three with a singular name?
WJ
Hi WJ,What single name are you referring to?
Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:27) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 15 2011,08:15) WJ said to Mike: Quote YHVH said there is no God formed before him or after him, and he has not contradicted himself. The scripture concurs with WJ:
TO ALL:
Mikeboll has dogmatically claimed that Jesus is a god who “came into being” after YHWH. Keith has corrected Mike about this many times but Mike has given Keith a deaf ear. Isaiah 43:10 explicitly says that before and after YHWH there was no God “formed.” The LXX uses the Greek “ginomai” for “formed.” Note the word in bold in the Septuagint translation of Isaiah 43:10 below. It is the Greek “ginomai” which means “to come into being.”
43:10 γενεσθε μοι μαρτυρες καγω μαρτυς λεγει κυριος ο θεος και ο παις ον εξελεξαμην ινα γνωτε και πιστευσητε και συνητε οτι εγω ειμι εμπροσθεν μου ουκ εγενετο αλλος θεος και μετ' εμε ουκ εσται
No god came into being before or after YHWH. Therefore, Jesus did not come into being but was always “with God” (John 1:1). Mike's only option is to deny that Jesus is a god at all. This would be a step up for him. For denying that Jesus is a god at all is better than confessing Him as a god in the “same sense” as satan.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….=244799
the Roo
But that's not REALLY what Isaiah 43:10 says, is it Jack?Isaiah 43:10 NET ©
You are my witnesses,” says the Lord, “my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may consider and believe in me, and understand that I am he. No god was formed before me, and none will outlive me.It would be illogical and untrue for God to say there would be no “els” formed after Him when scripture is full of “els” who were formed after him, right? How else can He be the “El of els” if there are no other els to be the El of?
mike
Because they are false “els” or so-called “els” because there is “Only One True El”.WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,07:45) Hi Mike Then when Moses said “In the beginning 'elohiym (God) created the heavens and the earth”, Moses wasn’t speaking of the “supernatural or supreme being who created the universe? What are you talking about?
Of course Moses was speaking of the “supernatural or supreme being who created the universe”. But the word “elohim” does not MEAN “the supernatural or supreme being who created the universe”, does it?
Hi MikeThere you have it. Moses identified God the creator of all things with the word “Elohim”.
WJ
What a very petty thing to do, Keith. You cut the context right out of my post and pulled a Jack. How disappointing.Now, why don't you answer the REST of the post?
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 14 2011,17:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:32) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 14 2011,17:19) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 15 2011,04:24) One name three persons.
Hi Jack,Don't you mean instead: 'three persons but only two names'?
EdDidn't Jesus include the Holy Spirit in the three with a singular name?
WJ
Hi WJ,What single name are you referring to?
EDI don't know. Ask the Father or Jesus. I just believe the scripture that says he shares a single name with the Father and in Hebrew that can mean that he shares all the charateristics and attributes of God.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,17:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,07:45) Hi Mike Then when Moses said “In the beginning 'elohiym (God) created the heavens and the earth”, Moses wasn’t speaking of the “supernatural or supreme being who created the universe? What are you talking about?
Of course Moses was speaking of the “supernatural or supreme being who created the universe”. But the word “elohim” does not MEAN “the supernatural or supreme being who created the universe”, does it?
Hi MikeThere you have it. Moses identified God the creator of all things with the word “Elohim”.
WJ
What a very petty thing to do, Keith. You cut the context right out of my post and pulled a Jack. How disappointing.Now, why don't you answer the REST of the post?
mike
MikeThe same reason you don't answer mine!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,09:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2011,16:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2011,04:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2011,20:39) Really guys? Still nothing? I'll post it a THIRD time. Jack, prove that you're not running and hiding right now. You seem to have plenty of time for ridicules………how about for one little answer?
Scripture says our only one true God is THE FATHER. How do you “include” the Son into this very specific statement?
Jack, would you try to answer it? Keith and SF, I would also be interested in your HONEST, SCRIPTURAL, and TO THE POINT answers.
peace and love to all of you,
mike
MikeThere you go again. Asking me the same question I have already answered here…
Oh, you mean your answer REALLY IS, “Since Jesus IS God, then it MUST include him”? I thought that was a joke or something…………not a real answer.
Hi MikeYou see what I mean? Do you see your attitude towards all those that you debate. Everyones answer is a joke to you and not a real answer. Ha Ha. Why waste our time then?
Is it possibe that Mike could ever be wrong? Ha, well Mike you have yourself and your self proclaimed interpretation of scriptures.
Most of us understand that we don't have all the answers since we can't read Hebrew, Greek or Latin so we have to trust God first and then listen by the Spirit to the God given men who were the forerunners of our faith who brings us the translations and the respective meaning of Hebrew and Greek words as well as their expert commentary.
So Mikebol, the bottom line is that I will trust their commentary and their faith and my own heart and faith before I trust your laymen view.
Blessings Keith
Are you flippin' KIDDING ME?!? Are you really going to stay with that answer? 
Newsflash to all non-trinitarians:
It's all been explained to us now. We can rest easy. Keith has explained to us that because Jesus IS God, Jesus is God!
You are too much, Keith!
FRANCIS, NOW DO YOU SEE WHAT I MEANT BEFORE?
mike
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
