Mikeboll64 vs francis

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2011,07:19)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 12 2011,15:16) Keith wrtoe: Quote John said we have fellowship with the Father and the Son, 1 John 1:1-3. The fellowship is with the Father AND with the Son. You cannot have fellowship with someone you don't converse with. My guess is that the anti-trins don't talk to God at all. Jack Jack I wouldn't say that, but I do wonder what God they are praying to. Jesus said you can't come anyother way and if you do you are a theif and a robber. WJ

Keith,

Good point. I may stand to be corrected.

Jack

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 13 2011,01:11)

Istari said: Quote Jesus is not the GOD of ANYONE… Anathema! KJ

That would contradict what Mike says since he believes that to be a title.

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote

5. JESUS DOES WORKS OF JEHOVAH Grace and peace. Jesus together with the Father is the giver of grace and peace:”Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”(Phm 1:3; Rom 1:7; 1Cor 1:3; 2Cor 1:2; Eph 1:2; Php 1:2. See also 2Th 1:2; Eph 6:23; 1Th 1:1; 2Th 1:1): “The phrase `God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,' present in Paul's salutations, thanksgivings, and other doxological passages, indicates a FUNCTIONAL IDENTITY between the Father and the Lord. They are JOINTLY the source of grace and peace” (Capes, D.B., 1992, “Old Testament Yahweh Texts in Paul's Christology,” pp.62-64, 68). “[Gal 1:3] This grace and peace come from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ … the main theological point is the close association of Christ with God. Indeed, the use of the word Kyrios, 'Lord', as a title of Christ would in itself be sufficient to assure this. Much study has been devoted to this Greek word, the one chosen by the early translators into Greek of the Hebrew Bible to stand for the divine name YHWH…. Kyrios varied in meaning … to the full sense of 'Lord', in confession of the deity of Christ. When the early Christians used the phrase, 'Jesus is Lord' [Rom 10:9; 1Cor 12:3] …they cannot have meant less than this.” (Cole, R.A., 1989, “The Letter of Paul to the Galatians:,” p.70. Emphasis original

http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/2010….on.html

Jack

[SimplyForgiven]

Hi WJ,
I think what they dont realize that the father and the son are not seperated.

For example david, and mike always make the point that in Pauls greetings that the Father and the Son are mention seperately, so that means that the Son cannot be God.

But check this out, notice that Paul ALWAYS consistently always mentions Jesus with the Father.
Paul never excludes Jesus, and all his topics surround knowing Jesus.

So Jesus and the Fathere were never seperated and were never mentioned seperated which should prove the “Echad” of the Lord
Get what im saying, that the FAct paul included Jesus proves something

[shimmer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2011,08:36)

Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 12 2011,14:15) To be honest I have never seen any of this from you WJ. So, you speak on. As do many. Words without love or kindness have nothing to them. Dittos! WJ

WJ,

The stronger should look out for the weaker.

Philippians 2:4
Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

JA did. Not you. On another forum I had trinitarians look out for and pray for me as well.

Matthew 25:31-46  
“ 'Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.'

Which is why I said, whatever you say are nothing but words, clanging cymbals.

[shimmer]

Can't wait to answer the rest but I have to go out.

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote

God, the Father, and the Lord. Jesus Christ Paul's letters generally followed the literary patterns of that day. … Paul followed contemporary epistolary practice by including certain stereotyped forms in his introductory formulae, thanksgivings, and farewells. In these sections he often utilized the formula, `God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,' or a variation of it. … Thus, his typical salutation read: `Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ' … Paul designated both God the Father and the Lord Jesus as dispensers of grace and peace to the Church. … God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ bring these blessings into men's lives by faith. They are UNIFIED IN FUNCTION. Such a connection is possible only if God and the Lord RESIDE AT THE SAME LEVEL in Paul's thought … One final factor needs to be mentioned. The phrase `God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,' present in Paul's salutations, thanksgivings, and other doxological passages, indicates a FUNCTIONAL IDENTITY between the Father and the Lord. They are JOINTLY THE SOURCE OF GRACE AND PEACE. Praise, thanksgiving, and blessing belong to them.” (Capes, D.B., 1992, “Old Testament Yahweh Texts in Paul's Christology,” J.C.B. Mohr: Tübingen, Germany, pp.62-64, 68). “[Gal 1:3] This grace and peace come from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. It is probable that by the common construction known as chiasmus (which could be translated as an 'x-shaped' construction), the source of grace is seen as Christ, and the source of peace as God the Father. Again, however, the main theological point is the close association of Christ with God. Indeed, the use of the word Kyrios, 'Lord', as a title of Christ would in itself be sufficient to assure this. Much study has been devoted to this Greek word, the one chosen by the early translators into Greek of the Hebrew Bible to stand for the divine name YHWH, which might not be pronounced by the pious Jew, and for which the Hebrew adonai, 'my Lord', had already been substituted. Kyrios varied in meaning from the polite 'sir', used in formal address to a stranger, to the full sense of 'Lord', in confession of the deity of Christ. When the early Christians used the phrase, 'Jesus is Lord' [Rom 10:9; 1Cor 12:3], as a baptismal confession, they cannot have meant less than this.” (Cole, R.A., 1989, “The Letter of Paul to the Galatians: An Introduction and Commentary,” The Tyndale New Testament commentaries, [1965], Inter-Varsity Press Leicester: UK, Second edition, p.70). “[1Th 1:1] God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. The combination of both terms (a. God the Father, b. the Lord Jesus Christ) after one preposition (in; that is grounded in) would seem to indicate that the two are entirely co-ordinate, that is, that the reference is to the first and to the second person of the Holy Trinity. Note also the trinitarian character of verses 3-5. Hence, the third person (Holy Spirit), mentioned in verse 5, is implied already in verse 1. Paul often mentions the three together in series of closely connected passages (II Thess. 2:13, 14; I Cor. 12:4-6; II Cor. 13:14; Eph. 2:18; 3:2-5; 3:14-17; 4:4-6; 5:18-20). In referring to the second person the full name is used here: the Lord Jesus Christ. In the LXX the name Lord (kurios) translates Jehovah, the God of Israel. It is more often the rendering of Jehovah than of anything else. (At times it is the equivalent of Adon, Adonai, Baal, etc.) Now the Jews were strict monotheists. Yet Paul, though himself a Jew, again and again gives to Jesus the title Lord. This shows that, in the thinking of the apostle, Jesus is just as fully divine as is God the Father: one and the same essence is possessed by the Father and by the Son (also by the Spirit, II Cor. 13:14).” (Hendriksen, W., 1955, “1 & 2 Thessalonians,” New Testament Commentary, Banner of Truth: Edinburgh UK, British edition, 1972, pp.40-41. Emphasis original). “But there was a far stronger reason for the application of the Greek term `Lord' to Jesus than that which was found in its general currency among Greek-speaking peoples. The religious use of the term was not limited to the pagan cults, but appears also, and if anything even more firmly established, in the Greek Old Testament. The word `Lord' is used by the Septuagint to translate the `Jahwe' of the Hebrew test. It would be quite irrelevant to discuss the reasons which governed the translators in their choice of this particular word. No doubt some word for `Lord' was required by the associations which had already clustered around the Hebrew word. And various reasons may be suggested for the choice of `kyrios' rather than some other Greek word meaning `lord' [As, for example, despotes] Possibly the root meaning of `kyrios' better expressed the idea which was intended; perhaps, also, a religious meaning had already been attached to `kyrios,' which the other words did not possess. At any rate, whatever may have been the reason, `kyrios' was the word which was chosen. And the fact is of capital importance. For it was among the readers of the Septuagint that Christianity first made its way. The Septuagint was the Bible of the Jewish synagogues, and in the synagogues the reading of it was heard not only by Jews but also by hosts of Gentiles, the `God-fearers' of the Book of Acts. It was with the `God-fearers' that the Gentile mission began. And even where there were Gentile converts who had not passed at all through the school of the synagogue in the very earliest period perhaps such converts were few-even then the Septuagint was at once used in their instruction. Thus when the Christian missionaries used the word `Lord' of Jesus, their hearers knew at once what they meant. They knew at once that Jesus occupied a place which is occupied only by God. For the word `Lord' is used countless times in the Greek scriptures as the holiest name of the covenant God of Israel, and these passages were applied freely to Jesus.” (Machen, J.G., 1925, “The Origin of Paul's Religion: The James Sprunt Lectures Delivered at Union Theological Seminary in Virginia,” Eerdmans: Grand Rapids MI, Reprinted, 1965, pp.307-308). “[1Th 1:1] Also peculiar to these Epistles is the phrase in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (Paul usually says 'in Christ'). It is striking (a) that he speaks of the Father and the Lord in one breath (no-one else could be linked with the Father in this way), (b) that he joins the two under one preposition in, and  that he expresses the closeness of the tie linking the Thessalonians with their God in terms of Christ as well as the Father. 'The association could hardly be closer' (Ward). This high view of Jesus is continued with the use of Lord and Christ. Lord was used in LXX as the translation of the divine name and it was commonly used of deity in other religions (as well as having less significant uses). It points to a very high place. Christ means 'anointed' and is equivalent to 'Messiah'. And all this in a letter written only about twenty years after the crucifixion. From very early times Jesus was seen to have the highest place.” (Morris, L.L., 1984, “The Epistles of Paul to the Thessalonians: An Introduction and Commentary,” Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, [1956], Inter-Varsity Press: Leicester UK, Second Edition, p.41). “[1Th 1:1] In God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (en theoi patri kai kurioi Jesou Christoi). This church is grounded in (en, with the locative case) and exists in the sphere and power of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. No article in the Greek, for both theoi patri and kurioi Jesou Christoi are treated as proper names. In the very beginning of this first Epistle of Paul we meet his Christology. He at once uses the full title, `Lord Jesus Christ,' with all the theological content of each word. The name `Jesus' (Saviour, Matt. 1:21) he knew, as the `Jesus of history,' the personal name of the Man of Galilee, whom he had once persecuted (Acts 9:5), but whom he at once, after his conversion, proclaimed to be `the Messiah,' (ho Christos, Acts 9:22). This position Paul never changed. In the great sermon at Antioch in Pisidia which Luke has preserved (Acts 13:23) Paul proved that God fulfilled his promise to Israel by raising up `Jesus as Saviour' (sotera Iesoun). Now Paul follows the Christian custom by adding Christos (verbal from chrio, to anoint) as a proper name to Jesus (Jesus Christ) as later he will often say `Christ Jesus' (Col. 1:1). And he dares also to apply kurios (Lord) to `Jesus Christ,' the word appropriated by Claudius (Dominus, Kurios) and other emperors in the emperor-worship, and also common in the Septuagint for God as in Psa. 32:1f. (quoted by Paul in Rom. 4:8). Paul uses Kurios of God (I Cor. 3:5) or of Jesus Christ as here. In fact, he more frequently applies it to Christ when not quoting the Old Testament as in Rom. 4:8. And here he places `the Lord Jesus Christ' in the same category and on the same plane with `God the father.' There will be growth in Paul's Christology and he will never attain all the knowledge of Christ for which he longs (Phil. 3:10-12), but it is patent that here in his first Epistle there is no `reduced Christ' for Paul. He took Jesus as `Lord' when he surrendered to Jesus on the Damascus Road: `And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said to me' (Acts 22:10). It is impossible to understand Paul without seeing clearly this first and final stand for the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul did not get this view of Jesus from current views of Mithra or of Isis or any other alien faith. The Risen Christ became at once for Paul the Lord of his life.” (Robertson, A.T., 1931, “Word Pictures in the New Testament: Volume IV: The Epistles of Paul,” Broadman Press: Nashville TN, p.6. Emphasis original). “[2Th 1:2] From God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (apo theou patros kai Kuriou lesou Christou). … Note absence of article both after en and apo, though both God and Lord Jesus Christ are definite. In both cases Jesus Christ is put on a par with God, though not identical. See on I Thess. 1:1 for discussion of words, but note difference between en, in the sphere of, by the power of, and apo, from, as the fountain head and source of grace and peace.” (Robertson, 1931, p.41. Emphasis original).

http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/2010….on.html

Jack

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 13 2011,01:23)

Quote 5. JESUS DOES WORKS OF JEHOVAH Grace and peace. Jesus together with the Father is the giver of grace and peace:”Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”(Phm 1:3; Rom 1:7; 1Cor 1:3; 2Cor 1:2; Eph 1:2; Php 1:2. See also 2Th 1:2; Eph 6:23; 1Th 1:1; 2Th 1:1): “The phrase `God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,' present in Paul's salutations, thanksgivings, and other doxological passages, indicates a FUNCTIONAL IDENTITY between the Father and the Lord. They are JOINTLY the source of grace and peace” (Capes, D.B., 1992, “Old Testament Yahweh Texts in Paul's Christology,” pp.62-64, 68). “[Gal 1:3] This grace and peace come from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ … the main theological point is the close association of Christ with God. Indeed, the use of the word Kyrios, 'Lord', as a title of Christ would in itself be sufficient to assure this. Much study has been devoted to this Greek word, the one chosen by the early translators into Greek of the Hebrew Bible to stand for the divine name YHWH…. Kyrios varied in meaning … to the full sense of 'Lord', in confession of the deity of Christ. When the early Christians used the phrase, 'Jesus is Lord' [Rom 10:9; 1Cor 12:3] …they cannot have meant less than this.” (Cole, R.A., 1989, “The Letter of Paul to the Galatians:,” p.70. Emphasis original http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/2010….on.html Jack

THATS CRAZY!!!
WE POSTED ABOUT THE SAME SUBJECT AT THE SAME TIME!!!

wow…….

[Istari]

Istari wrote that Jesus was NOT the God of anyone…
WJ immediately writes back saying 'So Satan is Greater than Jesus' and 'So who is Jesus the God of?'

Please read that again and say what is wrong with what WJ says!

And, to answer a long whispered question…Istari was created because JustAskin cannot post in the forum.

Mad Mikeboll64 blocked his ability to post and then went on holiday.
T8 removed all of JustAskin's blocks and also stated that JustAskin could post again but despite numerous attempts this was not possible. T8 has been advised but does not seem to have done anything.

And, as for 'Pretending', not so, but it was good fun nonetheless.
And so much for all those who, after the event, said, 'I knew all along'! yeah, right!!!
I couldn't do all I wanted because I needed editing rights to correct an error in my JavaScript code.

But, hey, love me or hate me, those whose browsers could accommodate it, it looked good and worked well, eh?
And as per my multilayered posting, did you understand the links between the two images and with Lord of the Rings, and with Jesus being crucified, dying and being RAISED again in a new Spiritual Body, Gandalf the Grey becomes Gandalf the White and…the fall of the (Mike)Bollrog.
And t8 has turned into Pontius Pilot by 'releasing' Mike(Barabbas)boll64 and condemning the Just Askin one!
Lots of links there!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 12 2011,15:27)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2011,08:36) Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 12 2011,14:15) To be honest I have never seen any of this from you WJ. So, you speak on. As do many. Words without love or kindness have nothing to them. Dittos! WJ WJ, The stronger should look out for the weaker. Philippians 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. JA did. Not you. On another forum I had trinitarians look out for and pray for me as well. Matthew 25:31-46   “ 'Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;  for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in.  I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.' Which is why I said, whatever you say are nothing but words, clanging cymbals.

Shimmer

You are not my judge. It is entirely possible that I didn't see that thread isn't it? And if I did then please show me where I have ever shown and hate or anamosity toward you or anyone for that matter.

Is it in the thread where you and Kathi had a dispute?

What if I thought you were wrong?

You make these accusations against me with no evidence except your claims. But even so, when have you ever came to my defense when I was being attacked by JA or Mike, since I am sure you think JA is stronger than I?

So how much do you pray for me? Didn't Jesus say pray for your enemies even?

Blessings WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 12 2011,16:48)

Istari wrote that Jesus was NOT the God of anyone… WJ immediately writes back saying 'So Satan is Greater than Jesus' and 'So who is Jesus the God of?' Please read that again and say what is wrong with what WJ says!

JA

Whats wrong is you didn't answer the question.

Whats wrong is you say Jesus is the god of “no one” but you believe “satan is the god of this world”, right or do you believe the scripture?

WJ

[Istari]

WJ,
You are weird!!

I said Jesus was not the God of anyone. How is that not an answer.

Your discussion was with Mikeboll64, not with me.

I responded out of courtesy and you insist on pursuing me, why?

But….to answer you (again)!

Satan was made God of this earth AFTER Jesus was raised from the dead and made King in his Father's kingdom.

Only when Jesus proved that sin was overcomeable by flesh and blood Man, only then was Satan thrown out of Heaven.

Jesus was not made 'a God' but the glorified Begotten Son of God, heir to the throne of God, eternal heir for God never dies nor abdicates.
Moreover, his reign as King in his father's kingdom is ONLY until he brings all powers and authorities and rule under his control, then he hands back the rulership of the Kingdom to his Father And God.

So, again, Jesus is not the 'God' of anyone but is the King of his father's kingdom in the same way that Joseph was the overseer of Pharoah's kingdom of Egypt but was never himself, Pharoah.
Indeed, Pharoah said, 'All I have is yours to command, all except for my throne'

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 12 2011,15:26)

Hi WJ, I think what they dont realize that the father and the son are not seperated. For example david, and mike always make the point that in Pauls greetings that the Father and the Son are mention seperately, so that means that the Son cannot be God. But check this out, notice that Paul ALWAYS consistently always mentions Jesus with the Father. Paul never excludes Jesus, and all his topics surround knowing Jesus. So Jesus and the Fathere were never seperated and were never mentioned seperated which should prove the “Echad” of the Lord Get what im saying, that the FAct paul included Jesus proves something

Dennison

Here are some amazing facts.

The following words are found in the NT…

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Keith said:

Quote

The Bible is the Biography of God and yet Jesus takes claim to them speaking of him!!!

 

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 12 2011,17:33)

Satan was made God of this earth AFTER Jesus was raised from the dead and made King in his Father's kingdom.

JA

So like I said to you “satan is the God of this world” and “Jesus is the God of no one”?

So then if Jesus is “the God of no one” then satan must be  greater than he, right?

So satan was “made God of this world?”

Come on JA, what kind of logic is that?

Thank You. WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 12 2011,15:26)

Hi WJ, I think what they dont realize that the father and the son are not seperated. For example david, and mike always make the point that in Pauls greetings that the Father and the Son are mention seperately, so that means that the Son cannot be God. But check this out, notice that Paul ALWAYS consistently always mentions Jesus with the Father. Paul never excludes Jesus, and all his topics surround knowing Jesus. So Jesus and the Fathere were never seperated and were never mentioned seperated which should prove the “Echad” of the Lord Get what im saying, that the FAct paul included Jesus proves something

Dennison

That is very true. But Jesus sort of gets brushed aside as a second thought or something. I am grieved when I here some here say they do not pray to Jesus but go to the Father through him. Just how do they do that without including Jesus in their prayers or their fellowship?

Is the five letter word “Jesus” just an icon that they attach to the end of their prayers as some magical formula that is supposed to get something from God?

The name “Jesus” is above every name and it is “in” that name that we do anything. Hebrew names revealed the character of the one who had it.

If Jesus is the name by which heaven and earth and everything under the earth will confess and bow too, then that name would represent all the attributes and character of the infinite “One True God”. So when we call on the name Jesus we are calling on God because all fullness is in him! Hallelujah!!!

Blessings WJ

[Istari]

WJ,
Does Scriptures not say that Satan is the God of this system of things.

WJ, I am not Mikeboll64, and whatever you negotiated with him about what or who 'a God' is, you cannot use it as your definition with me.

I gave you my definition of what 'God' means but you ignore it preferrIng the weak dismal rendering offered by Mikeboll64.

Still, I see you struggling to say 'Only True God' as if you can't understand that 'True' implies others that are not True. Moses was called 'God of Aaron' by God Almighty himself. And God said to David, 'Thy throne, O God…' but this was not implying that Moses, nor David was God Amighty himself.

You deliberately misinterpret the Title 'God' to make incomprehensible argument with Mikeboll64 and attempt to do the same with me!

[mikeboll64]

Hi All,

I hope that God is blessing each and every one of you with the undeserved kindness He so abundantly and freely gives.  

Keith, I don't really care about your ad hominems.  I just find it funny that you take it so much to heart and yet do the same thing to others.  By the way, just to set the record straight, YOU started the “hiding” thing by claiming I had t8 move this thread BECAUSE I WAS HIDING.

Istari, most of us don't really care what you think about most things, but especially what you think about us personally.  You were rightfully blocked, and t8 has re-instated me and blocked you twice himself – now that he's had a chance to look into the matter.  But don't worry, I will not block anyone who I'm in the middle of the argument with ever again.  (MY choice, not t8's)  On the other hand, you need to watch how you speak to the others here, for I WILL give you a tile for going “over the line” with others if it is reported.

Princess, not that you care, but I finally have authority to remove an entire thread.  So I will happily remove any spam that is reported on “my watch”.

Jack, I took last night off and today I came back to 6 new pages in this thread.  I read many more insults from you, but I couldn't find where you answered this from yesterday:

Jack, prove that you're not running and hiding right now.  You seem to have plenty of time for ridicules………how about for one little answer?

Scripture says our only one true God is THE FATHER.  How do you “include” the Son into this very specific statement?

Jack, would you try to answer it?  Keith and SF, I would also be interested in your HONEST, SCRIPTURAL, and TO THE POINT answers.

peace and love to all of you,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 11 2011,07:21)

'elohiym 1) (plural)   1a) rulers, judges   1b) divine ones   1c) angels   1d) gods 2) (plural intensive – singular meaning)   2a) god, goddess   2b) godlike one   2c) works or special possessions of God     2d) the (true) God   2e) God Know of what you speak, young Dennison.  “God” with a capital “G” is only two of the nine definitions given for the word above.  And even then, it still simply means “ruler” or “judge”.  It was used of humans, angels, Jesus, and the Omniscient Being Who Created All. peace and love, mike

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 12 2011,17:16)

Your Definition and contentions that “Elohim” is only a Title and only means “Rulers or Judge” Is a fallacy,

D, how can you honestly even say “it's a fallacy” when the green words above are staring you right in the face?    I didn't make this up, this info is from Biblical scholars.

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 12 2011,17:16)

The Title is a fullfiled role that can be used as a Identity instead of just a title.

With this I agree wholeheartedly.  But because the word “elohim” was used to IDENTIFY the only Omniscient Being does not mean the word stops meaning “judge/ruler”.  Nor does it mean that anyone who is called by this title IS the only Omniscient Being.  Nor does it mean that others who are called by this title are “false judges” or “imposter rulers”.

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 12 2011,17:16)

Your Logic and Definition would obstruct the View of Genesis1:1 Genesis 1 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Who created the heavens and the Earth? According to your logic MANY are called “Elohim” so out of this MANY, who is the one who created the heavens in the earth, and HOW could you know?

And that is a great point D.  How DID they know when “elohim” referred to the Omniscient Being and when it didn't?  CONTEXT, my friend.  How do we know the Judge who was mentioned in Gen 1:1 was the Omniscient Being and not some other judge?  Because enough scriptures specifically mention this particular Judge by His name, YHVH, in referrence to creation.  Also, CONTEXT.  How many judges do you think there are who created the universe and everything in it?  I know of only One. So obviously, the Judge mentioned in Gen 1:1 is THAT ONE.

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 12 2011,17:16)

Obviously the Writer used “Elohim” as a Identity and not solely a title.

Again, I agree in the case of Gen 1:1………AND MANY OTHERS.  But it is the CONTEXT that instructs us as to which mention of “elohim” is identifying YHVH………..not the word “elohim” itself.  For the word “elohim” simply means “judge(s)/ruler(s)”.  And the word “elohim” by itself does not tell us we are reading about the Omniscient Being……….the CONTEXT does that.

In other words, just as all that glitters is not gold, all who are called elohim are not YHVH.  

D, pay close attention to my forthcoming post to Francis.  If you are honest and willing to accept the truth of the matter – even when it interferes with your hardcore beliefs – you will learn from it.

peace and love to you my young friend,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2011,10:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 11 2011,18:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2011,10:06) Mike Did any of those Judges sit at the right hand of the Father? Were any of those judges there in eternity with the Father and created all things with their hands? Did any of those Judges have all authority and power and judgment? Keith, WERE THEY REAL OR NOT? mike Hi Mike They were real human beings who were judges and not gods Mike! WJ

Hi Keith,

I agree with you.  They WERE real “elohim”……..who were NOT YHVH.  And you can't even play the word game with “god”, because the Hebrews had no word “god” in their language.

So in Hebrew terminology, what you're saying is that they were REAL judges who were not to be confused with the Judge of judges.

And if these “elohim” were REAL, then you must redefine the way you look at the scriptures that say there is only ONE “elohim”.  To be honest with yourself and us, you must concede that “only ONE elohim” was an emphatic way of declaring that YHVH was the “HEAD” Judge.

YHVH said that APART FROM HIM, there were no judges.  And that is a true statement.  Because without Him, or His “okay”, no judge would even exist, let alone be a judge.

Think about it Keith.  Forget the word “god” and how we in the 21st century understand that word for a minute.  Scriptures say there are no “judges” but ONE, yet you admit that these mentioned in Exodus WERE REAL JUDGES.

How else can you reconcile these two very clear scriptural FACTS – if not by the way I've been claiming all along?

peace and love to you my friend,
mike

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