Mikeboll64 vs francis

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 10 2011,15:14)

You ask me if Jesus is my God.  No.

Hi Irene

Then why do you call him “a god”? Then who is he “a god” too? Satan is called “The god of this world”, so is he greater than Jesus if Jesus is not “a god” to anyone?

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 10 2011,15:14)

He is my King and Lord, and I honor Him and go through Jesus to come to the Throne of God and worship.

But Jesus said…

…The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; “The Lord our God is ONE LORD“: And thou shalt love the “Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. Mk 12:29, 30

Now why would Jesus “quote” this scripture and then say to his disciples…

“Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. John 13:13

And also Jesus said you cannot have 2 Masters…

“No man can serve two masters“: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other… Matt 6:24

Do you serve and Love Jesus with your whole heart, soul mind and strength?

Is he your Master and Lord (Owner)? Who else can be that but God?

Blessings Keith

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2011,23:02)

Hi The problem with the “antitrins” that believe Jesus is “a god” in John 1:1 is they should either believe he is “The True God”, One with the Father or become a Unitarian that believes he is not “a god” at all which would mean they would not believe in his pre-existence. I think the Unitarians have a better argument than the “Arians” against the Trinity for the Arians have to have a Polytheistic view of scriptures to make them work in their theology, but then they have to deny a ton of scriptures that says Jesus is the Word and pre-existed!   WJ

lol Keith,

This must be your favorite Thread.

mark it in your favorites, and mark the dates.
This is where the Alternative view dug its own grave and rested in peace.

All the fallacies are mentioned here in this thread.

it took me MONTHS, to finally get them to admit in plain english that they DO believe that Jesus is God!
they have accepted the scriptures that say Jesus is God!
BUT OFFER A UNBIBLICAL EXPLANATION THAT IT REFERS TO TITLES AND NOT IDENTITY.

Game over.

Where is JA? didnt he say that “Jesus is God belief” is dead in this forum?

Like Christ, it Ressurected.
And THATS BIBLICAL.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (princess @ Jan. 11 2011,00:30)

Quote The Unitarians are at least consistent triads judge their god. catholics kiss their god. muslims die for their god. ect..ect…ect… a moot point.

And Antitrins Deny their God.

Mooted point revived.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 11 2011,01:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2011,05:02) Hi The problem with the “antitrins” that believe Jesus is “a god” in John 1:1 is they should either believe he is “The True God”, One with the Father or become a Unitarian that believes he is not “a god” at all which would mean they would not believe in his pre-existence. I think the Unitarians have a better argument than the “Arians” against the Trinity for the Arians have to have a Polytheistic view of scriptures to make them work in their theology, but then they have to deny a ton of scriptures that says Jesus is the Word and pre-existed!   WJ Keith!  Now wouldn't that be denying Scripture?  The problem that most trinitarian don't believe that God is a title.  I don't care if anyone gives me a label.  Jesus is the Son of God and did exist His birth on earth…   Over 40 Scriptures tell us so….John1:1 is just one Scripture that proves it….Also how can Jesus always existed since He is the Son.  He came forth from His Father…..Therefore had a beginning….. Peace Irene

LOl IRENE,

So how can the FAther BE THE FATHER WITHOUT A SON?

you say that the FAther is God, yet its not possible that God is always the Father without a son.

So God couldnt always have been the Father.
So does the Father have a beginnning of being a Father as welll?

lol…
We know that Jesus DOES NOT HAVE A BEGINNING.
NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURES DOES IT SAY THAT HE DOES.

He is Preeminent.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 10 2011,15:46)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2011,23:02) Hi The problem with the “antitrins” that believe Jesus is “a god” in John 1:1 is they should either believe he is “The True God”, One with the Father or become a Unitarian that believes he is not “a god” at all which would mean they would not believe in his pre-existence. I think the Unitarians have a better argument than the “Arians” against the Trinity for the Arians have to have a Polytheistic view of scriptures to make them work in their theology, but then they have to deny a ton of scriptures that says Jesus is the Word and pre-existed!   WJ lol Keith, This must be your favorite Thread. mark it in your favorites, and mark the dates. This is where the Alternative view dug its own grave and rested in peace. All the fallacies are mentioned here in this thread. it took me MONTHS, to finally get them to admit in plain english that they DO believe that Jesus is God! they have accepted the scriptures that say Jesus is God! BUT OFFER A UNBIBLICAL EXPLANATION THAT IT REFERS TO TITLES AND NOT IDENTITY. Game over. Where is JA? didnt he say that “Jesus is God belief” is dead in this forum? Like Christ, it Ressurected. And THATS BIBLICAL.

Hi Dennison

I created this thread because Francis is making a very good case against Mikes Arian, and Polytheistic views.

Most do not realize I created this thread in the debates thread and I don't know for sure but apparantly Mike requested to t8 to move the thread because it is a distraction. Huh? What have you got to hide Mike and how is it a distraction since it is a completely different thread. Shoudn't it be in the same catagory so others can see the responses? What about this Mike?

Anyway, in answer to JA, I haven't seen him post in this thread after I made this post to him…

… wrote:

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 05 2011,19:11)

WJ, you shouting at me asking to answer for Mikebll64, that ain't on…but just to answer anyway: Jesus is not the GOD of ANYONE…I never said he was – your question is to MIKEBOLL64 – it is to him that that argument pertains…

JA So then satan is greater than Jesus? The scriptures says he is “The god of this world”?

So if you say Jesus is “a god” which you do, then who is he “a god” too? If he is not “a god” to anyone then he is not “a god” at all right? [end quote]

It is obvious that to hold to all the scriptures Jesus has to be “The True God” and we know that there is “Only One True God” so then that must mean that the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost are One. Matt 28:19

WJ

[princess]

ref:

SimplyForgiven,Jan. wrote:

you contain yourself to what is truth, for it is no different then love.

moot point, revisited.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (princess @ Jan. 11 2011,02:12)

ref: SimplyForgiven,Jan. wrote: you contain yourself to what is truth, for it is no different then love. moot point, revisited.

Love rejoices in the Truth,

moot point, settled.

[Baker]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 11 2011,07:53)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 11 2011,01:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2011,05:02) Hi The problem with the “antitrins” that believe Jesus is “a god” in John 1:1 is they should either believe he is “The True God”, One with the Father or become a Unitarian that believes he is not “a god” at all which would mean they would not believe in his pre-existence. I think the Unitarians have a better argument than the “Arians” against the Trinity for the Arians have to have a Polytheistic view of scriptures to make them work in their theology, but then they have to deny a ton of scriptures that says Jesus is the Word and pre-existed!   WJ Keith!  Now wouldn't that be denying Scripture?  The problem that most trinitarian don't believe that God is a title.  I don't care if anyone gives me a label.  Jesus is the Son of God and did exist His birth on earth…   Over 40 Scriptures tell us so….John1:1 is just one Scripture that proves it….Also how can Jesus always existed since He is the Son.  He came forth from His Father…..Therefore had a beginning….. Peace Irene LOl IRENE, So how can the FAther BE THE FATHER WITHOUT A SON? you say that the FAther is God, yet its not possible that God is always the Father without a son. So God couldnt always have been the Father. So does the Father have a beginnning of being a Father as welll? lol… We know that Jesus DOES NOT HAVE A BEGINNING. NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURES DOES IT SAY THAT HE DOES. He is Preeminent.

A Father is not a Father until there is a Son. The Father YAHWEH always existed. The Son did not, He came forth from His Father. Did you exist before your father? Stupid question. No of course not. Neither did Jesus. Jehovah God was and is greater then all. Scripture says so..,..Peace Irene

[Istari]

Too, apology for that.
Yes, it is true that Jesus was not judged by God.
He was judged by Man but was found guiltless but was still found among the sinful …for the sake of the Scriptures and for the sacrament.

And, 'God' is a title. The title 'God' is MOSTLY used of the 'One True God' who gave us his name as 'YHVH'(Hebrew),'I AM'(English).
The title, 'God' implies one who is supreme in their class, hence since their are many classes, there can be many 'Gods', but since there is also a Supreme Clas, there is also a Supreme God for that class.
YHVH is the God of this class, the God of all God's, the Supreme God, the 'God most High', 'the most high God'.

There would be no need to say 'True God' or 'Most High God' if there were no other 'God's'.
'True' and 'Most high', demonstrate the distinction between the ONE that is and the others that are 'so-called', that is, of the lesser class.

God Almighty, likewise, states 'the God' who is All Mighty, hence it infers there are Gods who are not All Mighty.

It is clear that if you deny that 'God' is simply a title, as is clearly shown, then you will continue to misinterpret many Scripture verses and have a tendency to invent excuses for renderings where 'God' is used of persons who are not 'YHVH'.
Examples, YHVH called Moses, 'The God of Aaron'. Clearly, God was not calling Moses, 'God, the most High' but simply, 'a person most superior in the CLASS of all humankind' at that time.

Likewise, YHVH said of David, 'Thy throne, O God…'. Again, God was not calling David, 'All Mighty God' but, 'a most Supreme King in the CLASS of Kings'.

Hence, this latter saying was also prophetic in that it was to apply also to the Son of God when he attained the Kingship of his father's kingdom.

So, the saying in truth applies to Jesus in the same way it applied to David, and more.

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Irene said:

Quote

The Father YAHWEH always existed.

God said, “I will BECOME a father to Him” (2 Samuel 7:14 and Hebrews 1:1-3). If God BECAME a Father, then He was NOT always a Father.  

Quote

The Son did not, He came forth from His Father.

Jesus BECAME the Son when He was baptized at the Jordan. he was officially installed as Son at His resurrection. He was the ETERNAL Word before all of it.

Roo Jr.

[Ed J]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 11 2011,10:05)

Irene said: Quote The Father YAHWEH always existed. God said, “I will BECOME a father to Him” (2 Samuel 7:14 and Hebrews 1:1-3). If God BECAME a Father, then He was NOT always a Father.   Quote The Son did not, He came forth from His Father. Jesus BECAME the Son when He was baptized at the Jordan. he was officially installed as Son at His resurrection. He was the ETERNAL Word before all of it. Roo Jr.

Hi Jr,

Are you forgetting about these verses? Was YHVH not a “Father” then?

Job.38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?  declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?  or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?  or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2011,08:07)

Most do not realize I created this thread in the debates thread and I don't know for sure but apparantly Mike requested to t8 to move the thread because it is a distraction. Huh? What have you got to hide Mike and how is it a distraction since it is a completely different thread. Shoudn't it be in the same catagory so others can see the responses? What about this Mike?

Really Keith?    You think I would try to HIDE from you and Jack and Dennison?      

I track you guys down all the time, corner you, and watch as YOU run and hide!  

In case you haven't noticed, you're doing it right now on this thread.  You guys are so fired up and sure that there is only one real god who has ever been given the title of “god” in scripture, that you are willing to ignore the fact that He is specifically named as THE FATHER…………..NOT THE SON.  And at one point, it was actually THE SON who was telling us who the only true God was……….and I don't remember him saying “WE” or “US” or “AND THE SON”.    I DO, however, remember him clearly distinguishing himself as someone OTHER THAN “the only true God” by saying he was the one who was SENT BY “the only true God”.

But about the thread, I DID ask t8 to move it.  People like Astari were confused because both threads had the same basic title and were both in the debates category.  And people were posting in my actual debate with Francis.  (Don't you remeber Astari's confusion as to why he could post in one and not the other?)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I though the debate threads were for only specific posters who are identified in the first post along with the rules.  This is an open discussion with many posters………why would you put it in the debates section?

At any rate, I wasn't trying to hide anything.  I'm GLAD you three are paying attention to the debate………..and I hope you will learn a little something from it.  

peace and love to you all,
mike

[Istari]

For there to be a Father, there must also be a Son.

So, before there was a Son there was no Father.

Be careful. There being no Father does not mean there was no person who would BECOME the Father.

I have a Son. I am a Father.
Before my Son was born, I was…but I was not yet a Father!

God Almighty was not a Father until he created his Spirit Sons.
God Almighty was not a Father until he created his Angels.

Trinity Creed says that God Almighty is the Father of Jesus.
Trinity Creed says that the Father is Jesus' father.

Before the Father was the Father He was not a Father.
Before God created Jesus He was not the Father.

Has Jesus got two Fathers?

What is the name of Jesus' Father?

If there was only God Almighty how was there an eternal Trinity?
An eternal Trinity of ONE?

If there was only God Almighty and his Holy Spirit, how was there an eternal Trinity of ONE?

The Holy Spirit is OF GOD.
The Holy Spirit is not a Separate God person from God. Even the very title says 'The Hy Spirit OF God'

Who was saying,'eternal Father'?
Before the Son was, there could be no Father.
Before the Father could be, first the Son must come.

And God said, 'Today, I have BECOME your father'

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2011,08:07)

Hi Dennison I created this thread because Francis is making a very good case against Mikes Arian, and Polytheistic views.

Yet, I haven't seen you guys comment too much on this “very good case” he's making.  In fact, all I read today was how you all agreed that I “changed his words” or something like that.

But I didn't change anything, I just posted truth.  And today I posted even more truth to him to explain the truth I posted last time.  

Pay attention guys:  He's either going to go for the “But there's ONLY ONE GOD, so there!”, like you guys do…………or he will research and accept the truth I've posted.  

I didn't make this stuff up, guys.  It's all right there in the words of scripture and in the words of the scholars who have tirelessly studied those scriptures and have defined the Hebrew and Greek words for us.  

Consider these scriptures:

Exodus 21 KJV
6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 22 KJV
8If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.

9For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

The bolded “judges” above are all the word “elohim”, which means “gods”.  And “elohim” means:

'elohiym
1) (plural)
  1a) rulers, judges
  1b) divine ones
  1c) angels
  1d) gods
2) (plural intensive – singular meaning)
  2a) god, goddess
  2b) godlike one
  2c) works or special possessions of God  
  2d) the (true) God
  2e) God

Know of what you speak, young Dennison.  “God” with a capital “G” is only two of the nine definitions given for the word above.  And even then, it still simply means “ruler” or “judge”.  It was used of humans, angels, Jesus, and the Omniscient Being Who Created All.

Keith, will you go as far as saying these “judges” in Exodus were “false judges” or “imposters”?

peace and love,
mike

[Ed J]

Hi Mike,

Excellent Post!   …You are right they usually do not address the point you make.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Thanks Ed.

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Mikeboll said:

Quote

Keith, will you go as far as saying these “judges” in Exodus were “false judges” or “imposters”?

When applied to God the word “elohim” means “Supreme ruler.” Jesus Christ is called “our only Sovereign ruler.” Therefore, the word “despotes” when applied to Jesus is equivalent to the word “elohim” when applied to God.

Which is greater: A supreme ruler or a sovereign ruler? It is obvious therefore that the word “God” as Mike defines it would be equivalent to the word “Despotes.”

So Mike still has not overcome WJ's point that if the expression “only true God” in reference to the Father excludes Jesus, then the expression “only true Despotes” in reference to Christ excludes the Father. Add to this dilemna that a “supreme ruler” (the Father) is not greater than a “sovereign ruler” (Jesus Christ).

Roo Jr.

[Baker]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 11 2011,10:05)

Irene said: Quote The Father YAHWEH always existed. God said, “I will BECOME a father to Him” (2 Samuel 7:14 and Hebrews 1:1-3). If God BECAME a Father, then He was NOT always a Father.   Quote The Son did not, He came forth from His Father. Jesus BECAME the Son when He was baptized at the Jordan. he was officially installed as Son at His resurrection. He was the ETERNAL Word before all of it. Roo Jr.

KJ  You took that Scripture out of context and applied it to Jesus, it is NOT JESUS read it all.

2Sa 7:4 ¶ And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,  

2Sa 7:5   Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?  

2Sa 7:6   Whereas I have not dwelt in [any] house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.  

2Sa 7:7   In all [the places] wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?  

2Sa 7:8   Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:  

2Sa 7:9   And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great [men] that [are] in the earth.  

2Sa 7:10   Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,  

2Sa 7:11   And as since the time that I commanded judges [to be] over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.  

2Sa 7:12 ¶ And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.  

2Sa 7:13   He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.  

2Sa 7:14   I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:  

2Sa 7:15   But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee.  

2Sa 7:16   And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.  

2Sa 7:17   According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.  

2Sa 7:18 ¶ Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said, Who [am] I, O Lord GOD? and what [is] my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto?  

2Sa 7:19   And this was yet a small thing in thy sight, O Lord GOD; but thou hast spoken also of thy servant's house for a great while to come. And [is] this the manner of man, O Lord GOD?  

2Sa 7:20   And what can David say more unto thee? for thou, Lord GOD, knowest thy servant.  

2Sa 7:21   For thy word's sake, and according to thine own heart, hast thou done all these great things, to make thy servant know [them].  

2Sa 7:22   Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for [there is] none like thee, neither [is there any] God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.  

2Sa 7:23   And what one nation in the earth [is] like thy people, [even] like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, [from] the nations and their gods?  

2Sa 7:24   For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel [to be] a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.  

2Sa 7:25   And now, O LORD God, the word that thou hast spoken concerning thy servant, and concerning his house, establish [it] for ever, and do as thou hast said.  

2Sa 7:26   And let thy name be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts [is] the God over Israel: and let the house of thy servant David be established before thee.  

2Sa 7:27   For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.  

2Sa 7:28   And now, O Lord GOD, thou [art]words be true, and thou hast promised this goodness unto thy servant:  

and what do these next Scriptures have to do with Jesus being Jehovah's Son?  It is verse 8 that does.

Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  

Hbr 1:2   Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;  

Hbr 1:3   Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;  

Yes, God Almighty YAHWEH was a Father to Jesus after He came forth from YAHWEH proven my point that JESUS DID NOT ALWAYS EXIST.  Like you, WJ and Francis believe….There is no trinity….It is a man made doctrine.  It was Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian who came up with it in the third century. I don't think the first Christians taught the trinity….
One more question:” Do you believe that Jesus preexisted His birth on earth, since you say that Jesus became YAHWEH'S Son at the Jordan?  I believe that Jesus became God YAHWEH'S Son when He was brought forth by His Father.  What was He then?

Peace Irene

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Irene said:

Quote

KJ  You took that Scripture out of context and applied it to Jesus, it is NOT JESUS read it all.

Irene,

It is applied to Jesus in Hebrews 1:1-6

Quote

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. The Son Exalted Above Angels   5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:      “ You are My Son,      Today I have begotten You”?[c]   And again:      “ I will be to Him a Father,      And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d] 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:      “ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[e]

Jack

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Francis said to Mikeboll:

Quote

ut in this debate, anything you bring up… I will take a hard look at it.. and if necessary, I will respond to it.  So  if you don't want to discuss the Creed and Eusebius stuff anymore, then as long as you don't bring it up again, I won't  either.

Don't expect Mike to stop with Eusebius. He never wears out. Mike ignores that Eusebius signed the creed which anathematized him and his Arain views.

Quote

In a gentleman's debate… whoever starts first and introduces novel material, the other person following should be  allowed to have the last word.  That is how I understand debates are handled.

Yielding the last word is not one of Mike's strengths. And when his opponent yields the last word Mike thinks it's weakness. He thinks he won.

Jack

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