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Mike
Didn't you make these statements?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 06 2011,17:00) And I don't know of a scripture that calls Jesus “the true god”, but I agree that he is. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,09:27) Scripturally speaking, is THE FATHER the ONLY TRUE GOD? Yes. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth. Blessings Keith
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,04:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,12:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,04:29) Why are you spamming the same post mike?
Because I gave you two choices. As I see it, there are no others. So pick one.mike
MikeMy theology lines up with the scritpures that teach “Monotheism” because I believe their is “Only One True God”.
By definition your theology teaches Polytheism Mike.
Blessings WJ
Keith,Please listen. What is “monotheism”? It is the belief that there is only ONE omniscient being who created all else and deserves our worship as that only ONE omniscient being.
The word “monotheism” doesn't have to do so much with the English word “god” as is does with “ONLY ONE OMNISCIENT BEING” who made all other beings and rules over all other beings.
Do you understand this, Keith?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,04:53) Mike Didn't you make these statements?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 06 2011,17:00) And I don't know of a scripture that calls Jesus “the true god”, but I agree that he is. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,09:27) Scripturally speaking, is THE FATHER the ONLY TRUE GOD? Yes. Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth. Blessings Keith
Yes, I said those things. And I've also already explained that I didn't look closely enough at the wording “THE” in referrence to Jesus, and that it should be “A true god”. So knowing this, I don't expect you to bring up the quote about Jesus being “THE true god” anymore, for you know it was an oversight that I have corrected.Now, I also posted THIS, but you haven't responded with a choice:
And you have already admitted that you believe the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD, so you're stuck. You only have two HONEST choices left:
1. Jesus actually IS the Father
2. Jesus is NOT “the ONLY TRUE GOD”.Which is it?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,11:59) Are you saying that Satan is NOT a true “ruler” to many?
Hi MikeYep, satan is NOT a true ruler to many. He is the Father of lies. Satan is a real ruler to many but not a “true ruler” to many and there are no scritpures that says he is.
Is satan a “True god” mike.
There is “Only One True God” Mike!
Stop reinventing the term!
WJ
Mike said:
Quote I don't know of a scripture that calls Jesus “the true god”, but I agree that he is.
I John 5:20 says that Jesus Christ is “the true God and eternal life.” He took over everything when He was exalted. He was still a servant when He called His Father the “only true God.” Jesus is the true God now. His Father is our father.Roo
Hi Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,13:09) 1. Jesus actually IS the Father Nope, But is Jesus “The True God”, since satan is “The god of this world”?
- Is Jesus your “god” Mike?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,13:09) 2. Jesus is NOT “the ONLY TRUE GOD”.
Yes he is.- Is Jesus a “false God”?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:19) Hi Mike Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,13:09) 1. Jesus actually IS the Father Nope, But is Jesus “The True God”, since satan is “The god of this world”?
- Is Jesus your “god” Mike?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,13:09) 2. Jesus is NOT “the ONLY TRUE GOD”.
Yes he is.- Is Jesus a “false God”?
WJ
Impeccable logic Keith!Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,11:59) And I didn't read the word “THE” close enough in my comment. I meant, and should have said that Jesus is “A true god”, just as the ones God called “gods” and Satan are true gods. It is a title that means “ruler”, Keith. Are you saying that Satan is NOT a true “ruler” to many?
Hi MikeSo satan is “the god of this world” but Jesus is just “a god”!
Mike your own words are contradictory and confusing.
You said…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth.
You see Mike, I can only think that it is pride that makes it so you cannot concede the point even after you have made contradicting statements. Do you really want to learn here Mike or are you so set in your way that no matter what you will not change?Mike, you run around accusing others of teaching falsehoods and yet you can't admit when you are wrong or ever concede a single point. What gives man?
Answer the question Mike, Please!
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,13:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,04:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,12:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,04:29) Why are you spamming the same post mike?
Because I gave you two choices. As I see it, there are no others. So pick one.mike
MikeMy theology lines up with the scritpures that teach “Monotheism” because I believe their is “Only One True God”.
By definition your theology teaches Polytheism Mike.
Blessings WJ
Keith,Please listen. What is “monotheism”? It is the belief that there is only ONE omniscient being who created all else and deserves our worship as that only ONE omniscient being.
The word “monotheism” doesn't have to do so much with the English word “god” as is does with “ONLY ONE OMNISCIENT BEING” who made all other beings and rules over all other beings.
Do you understand this, Keith?
peace and love,
mike
MikePlease listen…
“Monotheism”
: the doctrine or belief that there is but one God Source
“Polytheism”
: belief in or worship of more than one god Source
You are redefining terms to fit your false doctrine.
WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 09 2011,05:13) Mike said: Quote I don't know of a scripture that calls Jesus “the true god”, but I agree that he is.
I John 5:20 says that Jesus Christ is “the true God and eternal life.” He took over everything when He was exalted. He was still a servant when He called His Father the “only true God.” Jesus is the true God now. His Father is our father.Roo
Hi Jack,1 John says nothing of the sort. It refers to Jesus' GOD being “the true one”, as anyone without blinders can clearly see from the wording.
Quote Jesus is the true God now. His Father is our father.
God doesn't change, Jack. God does not “become a man” and then die, and then become “God” again. And your point that Jesus' Father is our Father only proves that we hope to be BROTHERS with Christ……..not SONS to him.peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:19) Hi Mike Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,13:09) 1. Jesus actually IS the Father Nope, But is Jesus “The True God”, since satan is “The god of this world”?
“NOPE” says it all then, Keith. You can't even logically ask if Jesus is “THE TRUE GOD” if you beleive the scriptures that say the Father is, right?So that's really all there is to it, Keith. The Father is the “only true God”, and therefore Jesus is NOT “the only true God”.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:11) Satan is a real ruler to many but not a “true ruler” to many and there are no scritpures that says he is.
Keith, that is just word games. “True” and “Real” are synonyms. If Satan is a “real ruler”, like you admit, then in Biblical terms, he is a “real god”. And that's just one more reason for you to understand what Jesus and Paul meant by saying “ONLY TRUE GOD” and “ONE GOD”.Keith, what is your father's name?
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 09 2011,05:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:19) Hi Mike Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,13:09) 1. Jesus actually IS the Father Nope, But is Jesus “The True God”, since satan is “The god of this world”?
- Is Jesus your “god” Mike?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,13:09) 2. Jesus is NOT “the ONLY TRUE GOD”.
Yes he is.- Is Jesus a “false God”?
WJ
Impeccable logic Keith!Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,13:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:19) Hi Mike Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,13:09) 1. Jesus actually IS the Father Nope, But is Jesus “The True God”, since satan is “The god of this world”?
“NOPE” says it all then, Keith. You can't even logically ask if Jesus is “THE TRUE GOD” if you beleive the scriptures that say the Father is, right?So that's really all there is to it, Keith. The Father is the “only true God”, and therefore Jesus is NOT “the only true God”.
peace and love,
mike
Mike
So Jesus is a “false God”?Your logic fails because are you your own Father?
Are you human like your Father?
Jesus is “God” like the Father isn't he?
Even you say “Jesus is a true God”. What gives?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,13:49) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:11) Satan is a real ruler to many but not a “true ruler” to many and there are no scritpures that says he is.
Keith, that is just word games. “True” and “Real” are synonyms. If Satan is a “real ruler”, like you admit, then in Biblical terms, he is a “real god”. And that's just one more reason for you to understand what Jesus and Paul meant by saying “ONLY TRUE GOD” and “ONE GOD”.Keith, what is your father's name?
mike
MikeNo it is you that plays the word games because you say there is “Only One True God” but then you say there are other gods.
Paul said there is “No God but one”. Therefore satan is a false god and a false ruler.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 09 2011,05:41) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 09 2011,05:13) Mike said: Quote I don't know of a scripture that calls Jesus “the true god”, but I agree that he is.
I John 5:20 says that Jesus Christ is “the true God and eternal life.” He took over everything when He was exalted. He was still a servant when He called His Father the “only true God.” Jesus is the true God now. His Father is our father.Roo
Hi Jack,1 John says nothing of the sort. It refers to Jesus' GOD being “the true one”, as anyone without blinders can clearly see from the wording.
Quote Jesus is the true God now. His Father is our father.
God doesn't change, Jack. God does not “become a man” and then die, and then become “God” again. And your point that Jesus' Father is our Father only proves that we hope to be BROTHERS with Christ……..not SONS to him.peace and love,
mike
Mike,I John 5:20 explicitly says that Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life. Verses 13-15 say that when pray to Him we may have confidence that we will receive the things we ask of Him.
The non-trinitarian view that God cannot change is false. God said “I change not” in reference to His oaths and not in every conceivable way.
If God cannot change, then there would be no such thing as a an old or a new covenant. Furthermore, the online Hebrew Interlinear renders the verb in Exodus 3:14 “I shall become who I am becoming.” This indicates that God can change Mike!
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
The exact same verb is used in Exodus 7:9 of the rod of Moses becoming a serpent. Did not the rod change Mike?
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo7.pdf
If God cannot and did not change we could not be saved! God said, “I will BECOME a Father to Him” (Christ). You have said this means that God literally begat Jesus. If so, then God changed.
Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,13:49) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:11) Satan is a real ruler to many but not a “true ruler” to many and there are no scritpures that says he is.
Keith, that is just word games. “True” and “Real” are synonyms. If Satan is a “real ruler”, like you admit, then in Biblical terms, he is a “real god”. And that's just one more reason for you to understand what Jesus and Paul meant by saying “ONLY TRUE GOD” and “ONE GOD”.Keith, what is your father's name?
mike
MikeNo it is you that plays the word games because you say there is “Only One True God” but then you say there are other gods.
Paul said there is “No God but one”. Therefore satan is a false god and a false ruler.
WJ
Keith,You're beating your head against a brick wall man!
Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,11:59) And I didn't read the word “THE” close enough in my comment. I meant, and should have said that Jesus is “A true god”, just as the ones God called “gods” and Satan are true gods. It is a title that means “ruler”, Keith. Are you saying that Satan is NOT a true “ruler” to many?
Hi MikeSo satan is “the god of this world” but Jesus is just “a god”!
Mike your own words are contradictory and confusing.
Keith,PLEASE listen and show me SCRIPTURALLY where I'm speaking wrong, okay?
Satan is one who has been called by the title “god”, so he is “A god”. He is also “THE god of this world”, as scripture says.
Jesus is one who has been called by the title “god”, so he is also “A god”. He has not specifically been called “THE god” of anything in particular, but knowing that “god” only means “ruler”, I can honestly say that he is “my god”. I, however, do not confuse him with God Almighty, who is HIS God, or “ruler”. Do you understand the order of things here? Jesus is MY ruler, God is HIS ruler. And God, as the ruler OF my ruler, is my HEAD RULER.
Please, show me where any of this is not scriptural. Please, show me how I'm “twisting words” or “contradicting” myself.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:21) You see Mike, I can only think that it is pride that makes it so you cannot concede the point even after you have made contradicting statements. Do you really want to learn here Mike or are you so set in your way that no matter what you will not change? Mike, you run around accusing others of teaching falsehoods and yet you can't admit when you are wrong or ever concede a single point. What gives man?
Answer the question Mike, Please!
I don't understand what you're asking me. Jesus rules in heaven right now, right? HIS GOD has given him this command, along with the strength and authority to carry it out, right? Where is my dilemma?Keith, PLEASE post one quote of anything I've said in this discussion that is unscriptural. Or, anything I've said that could ONLY be possible if Jesus is God Almighty.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2011,05:58) Paul said there is “No God but one”. Therefore satan is a false god and a false ruler.
AND WHO DOES PAUL SAY THAT “ONE” GOD IS?!?!Mike wrote:
Quote He has not specifically been called “THE god” Titus 2:13 & 2 Peter 1:11: JESUS “OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR”:
Quote Another excellent example of how one can actually use the errant or strained translations of the NWT to the advantage of the truth is found in the Bible’s description of Jesus as our “God and Savior” in Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1. In both instances we have an example of a syntactical7 formula in the Greek language known as Granville Sharp’s Rule, and once again, as soon as grammar enters most conversations, those involved will be looking to move elsewhere very quickly. In addition, Witnesses who are better read can always find a translation here or a scholar there to provide support for the NWT rendering. As with the previous example, however, when we take a wider approach we not only can demonstrate the bias and error of the NWT, but we can give a memorable testimony to the truth as well. Compare the NASB and the NWT on these passages:
Titus 2:13: “…looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus” (NASB).
“…while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus” (NWT).
2 Peter 1:1: “…by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (NASB).
“…by the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ” (NWT).
The NWT clearly seeks to put as much distance as possible between the terms “God” and “Savior,” while the NASB equates the two, describing one person, Jesus Christ, as both “God and Savior.” The Watchtower Society, which denies the deity of Christ, obviously cannot describe Him as “God and Savior,” so a wide variety of arguments have been developed to substantiate their translation; again, however, context allows the believer to establish the truth without first obtaining a degree in Greek syntax.
The context of the passage in Titus 2 indicates that only one person is in view: Christians are looking for the appearing, the coming, of Jesus Christ. The sentence continues into verse 14 with only one person, Christ, in view. He “gave Himself” to “purify for Himself” a people. This language is reminiscent of the redemptive work of Jehovah with reference to Israel (e.g., Ps. 130:7–8; Ezek. 37:23; Exod. 19:5), but here it is speaking of the work of Jesus Christ in particular. There is simply no reason to insert a gratuitous and unnatural reference to the Father into the middle of this passage unless your real reasons have nothing to do with the context or language but everything to do with your theology, as is the case with the NWT.
Being only part of the opening lines of an epistle (or “letter”), 2 Peter 1:1 does not have the kind of contextual support we find surrounding Titus 2:13. The epistle of 2 Peter as a whole, however, provides a powerful example of the inconsistency of the NWT and its blatant theological bias. Compare a transliteration of the Greek text of the last phrase in verse 1 (“…our God and Savior, Jesus Christ”) with the text only 10 verses later:
tou theou hemon kai soteros Iesou Christou (v. 1)
tou kuriou hemon kai soteros Iesou Christou (v. 11)
These phrases are grammatically and syntactically identical, with only one variation: the Greek term theou (the genitive singular form of the word “God”) in verse 1 over against the term kuriou (the genitive singular form of the word “Lord”) in verse 11.
The NWT gives itself away by translating the phrase in verse 11 correctly: “…our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” In fact, we likewise find identical grammatical constructions in 2 Peter 2:20 and 3:18 that the NWT translates correctly. The only reason for the NWT’s rendering in 2 Peter 1:1 is clear: their theology demands it and precludes the correct rendering. By starting with 2 Peter 1:11, then examining 2:20 and 3:18, and moving back to 1:1, we can demonstrate the theological bias of the translation, hopefully laying the foundation for further discussion of the specifics of the passage.
Roo
- Is Jesus your “god” Mike?
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