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Hi SF,
Feel free to bring the big boys back if this gets too tough for you; OK?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi people,
I'm not sure what this thread is about – there are two of them but people are posting in them even though it says “Mikeboll64 vs francis”.
I'm sure i got told of as Astaria in the other thread? Why are there two and how come some can post in here and not et told off.
Anyway, ceasing the moment…!
Can I ask Worshipping Jesus a question I've always wanted to ask a trinitarian:
Trinity says (I believe):
1) The Father is God
2) Jesus is God
3) The Holy Spirit is God
But when it realises that it has created THREE GODS by mistake, it tries to recover itself by saying “But they are not Three Gods but [the] ONE same God”
And no one single person in the whole of procreated humanity nor created Heavens can explain this weird anomaly.Perhaps because it is a product of poor human conception – worse – a conception, the Seed of Satan brought into bodily life by the Roman Nation – the Roman nation that were the very Enemies of God, of Truth and Righteousness.
Wasn't Emperor Constantine a none-believer until his death bed (Just in case!! – neat twist!!)But ok, I stray:
I wanted to ask:
1) Jesus is the SON of God – yes?
2) The Spirit is the HOLY Spirit of God – yes?
3) YHVH, Jehovah, “I AM”, is the Father of God – yes?Number 3) Intrigues me – YHVH is the Father of God…
Funny, Is this mentioned in the Bible, Scriptures, by credible person – ever…
and God the Son, is never ever mentioned in Scriptures nor by credible person…
and neither is there a single term ever used that says “God the holy Spirit” – please please please show me these two things “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit”.
Thanks.Worshipping Jesus, please indulge me one more time…
If Jesus is the Son of god from Eternity…how did he become the Son…
For there to be a father – there has to be a Son.
First the MAN then the Father at the conception of the Son…
So the MAN must have existed before becoming a Father…yet Trinity says the Son always existed…please explain, thank you.I look forward to your early response (or just whenever!) but an answer no less – I am intrigued as to your reply – excited even….
Hi Mike,
Outstanding response to Francis; Mike!! …Good logic, excellent
referencing to both the Hebrew and Greek, overall very well done!
Any feedback from anyone else? I refer to this Post Click here to view.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,05:03) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,10:47) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,04:37) Hi Dennison, First let's start by you not altering what the text says; OK?
Matt.13:37…He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; …Are you saying: the “The Son of Man” is God?
No Ed J,
I ask you alot of questions that you are still refusing to answer.Dont hound keith for not answering questions and than do the very same thing.
and second. The Verse you posted, says that the one that sowed is the Son of Man, and the good seeds are the children of the kingdom.
1) Question: Is the Son of Man, the same as The Son of God, Jesus Christ?
2) Question: Is the Children of the Kingdom, the same as the Sons of God, Children of the Light?
Hi SF,Keep asking questions, SF, that's how you learn!
1) We are all “The Son's of Man”, Jesus uses this term to reference his humanity. (Heb.2:17)
2) We are predesignated to be “The Son's of God”; the same as Jesus was. (Romans 8:29)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,
Here is your problem, sometimes you think you know everything….. Can we not discuss like human beings?1) You didnt answer my question. So Who is the “Son of Man” who is sowing good seeds? So are you stating that the “son of Man” is everyone?
a) You Said:
Quote We are all “The Son's of Man”,
How can that be true if Jesus says the Devil is the Father of liars, and of the “tares”(Again you ignored my questions, how come you ask Keith to answer you questions, yet you play games with me?)
2) Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. First of all, this is talking about how we are to be in the Image of His Son (Jesus Christ)
So it could not possibly be true that we “All are Sons of God” because to be conformed, we must have NOT been Sons of God to be transformed into one.Take this more seriously Ed
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,05:12) Hi SF, Feel free to bring the big boys back if this gets too tough for you; OK?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Thats a pretty Immature Comment Ed,
(I have the age to make such comments therefore excusable. but Your old, you should have a bit of more class)Quote (Istari @ Jan. 03 2011,06:06) Hi people, I'm not sure what this thread is about – there are two of them but people are posting in them even though it says “Mikeboll64 vs francis”.
I'm sure i got told of as Astaria in the other thread? Why are there two and how come some can post in here and not et told off.
This is a Forum Response to the Debate.
Read the very first post of this thread, it states it clearly there.Istari,
Let me ask you something Honestly and Sincerely,
I would like to know what you think.Was God always the Father?
And If so, how could that be? (Knowing full well for a being to have the title “Father” he must have Children to fufill that Role
and fullfill his role to provide and teach his children)Mike
Quote “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, Jehovah!” What does that mean? If you want it to mean Jesus is saying he IS Jehovah, then he would have to say, “I have been I AM”. Without the “I have been”, he is just saying the name of God, not that he IS that God. And as you can see from my mock-up scripture above, it makes no sense whatsoever. It is like me saying, “Before we went to dinner……..Jehovah!”
Say homey,I dont think thats what Francis was refering to.
I think the fact that Jesus plainly stated that he was before the Jews Patriach, than that meant him to be equal with God.
IMO I THINK thats what Francis point was.I dont think he was making an emphasis on “I Am”
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,12:41) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,05:03) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,10:47) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,04:37) Hi Dennison, First let's start by you not altering what the text says; OK?
Matt.13:37…He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; …Are you saying: the “The Son of Man” is God?
No Ed J,
I ask you alot of questions that you are still refusing to answer.Dont hound keith for not answering questions and than do the very same thing.
and second. The Verse you posted, says that the one that sowed is the Son of Man, and the good seeds are the children of the kingdom.
1) Question: Is the Son of Man, the same as The Son of God, Jesus Christ?
2) Question: Is the Children of the Kingdom, the same as the Sons of God, Children of the Light?
Hi SF,Keep asking questions, SF, that's how you learn!
1) We are all “The Son's of Man”, Jesus uses this term to reference his humanity. (Heb.2:17)
2) We are predesignated to be “The Son's of God”; the same as Jesus was. (Romans 8:29)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,
Here is your problem, sometimes you think you know everything….. Can we not discuss like human beings?1) You didnt answer my question. So Who is the “Son of Man” who is sowing good seeds? So are you stating that the “son of Man” is everyone?
a) You Said:
Quote We are all “The Son's of Man”,
How can that be true if Jesus says the Devil is the Father of liars, and of the “tares”(Again you ignored my questions, how come you ask Keith to answer you questions, yet you play games with me?)
2) Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. First of all, this is talking about how we are to be in the Image of His Son (Jesus Christ)
So it could not possibly be true that we “All are Sons of God” because to be conformed, we must have NOT been Sons of God to be transformed into one.Take this more seriously Ed
Hi Dennison,1) The “HolySpirit” is what makes us children of the kingdom. …………………”Feast of Booths”
Jesus sacrifice enabled him to baptize us with the “HolySpirit”. ………………”Pentecost”
It was because Jesus was made like unto his brethren (Son of Man). ……”The Passover”2) There is no question in point #2. Also you don't see the word “ALL” in my response; do you?
Did you not say…
Quote 'Im HONESTLY asking for the sake of understanding. there is no sarcasm nor any threat to be concerned about' Let's try to avoid 'spin'; OK? First you change “Son of Man” into “Son of God”. Next you add in the word “ALL”.
It seems both of these actions were an attempt to make what I have been telling you into something false.
Perhaps there really is: 'a threat to be concerned about'? Why else would you be bothered by my statement…Quote Keep asking questions, SF, that's how you learn! God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,12:43) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,05:12) Hi SF, Feel free to bring the big boys back if this gets too tough for you; OK?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Thats a pretty Immature Comment Ed,
(I have the age to make such comments therefore excusable. but Your old, you should have a bit of more class)
Hi Dennison,OK; sorry!
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,12:14) Hi Mike, Outstanding response to Francis; Mike!! …Good logic, excellent
referencing to both the Hebrew and Greek, overall very well done!
Any feedback from anyone else? I refer to this Post Click here to view.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Thanks Ed.I appreciate the support. I'm not sure how Francis can logically refute my points. And this is what I've been telling Keith for months here. If we discuss only one trinity proof text at a time, it becomes clear to see that not one of them actually teaches that Jesus is God Almighty……..or even implies it.
And when allowed to bring in the clear “Jesus is NOT God” scriptures, also one at a time, the truth will prevail.
But Francis is no slouch, and I'm sure he already has some “but Orthodox Christianity says……” or some “God the Son” claims ready and waiting.
I'll tell you one thing, if he sticks with this debate, we can't help but learn much more about scripture by the time we're done. And I think that's the reason we both agreed to do it.
peace and love and thanks again,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,12:53) Mike Quote “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, Jehovah!” What does that mean? If you want it to mean Jesus is saying he IS Jehovah, then he would have to say, “I have been I AM”. Without the “I have been”, he is just saying the name of God, not that he IS that God. And as you can see from my mock-up scripture above, it makes no sense whatsoever. It is like me saying, “Before we went to dinner……..Jehovah!”
Say homey,I dont think thats what Francis was refering to.
I think the fact that Jesus plainly stated that he was before the Jews Patriach, than that meant him to be equal with God.
IMO I THINK thats what Francis point was.I dont think he was making an emphasis on “I Am”
Hi Dennison,Jesus was born 1/2 God, as his Father was the “HolySpirit”(YHVH).
So of course Jesus was patriarchally above his brethren. (1Tm.2:5)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,12:53) Mike Quote “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, Jehovah!” What does that mean? If you want it to mean Jesus is saying he IS Jehovah, then he would have to say, “I have been I AM”. Without the “I have been”, he is just saying the name of God, not that he IS that God. And as you can see from my mock-up scripture above, it makes no sense whatsoever. It is like me saying, “Before we went to dinner……..Jehovah!”
Say homey,I dont think thats what Francis was refering to.
I think the fact that Jesus plainly stated that he was before the Jews Patriach, than that meant him to be equal with God.
IMO I THINK thats what Francis point was.I dont think he was making an emphasis on “I Am”
Listen up D-Linquent,
I think you're wrong. That is the 2nd most favorite “Jesus is God” scripture for the trinitarians BECAUSE OF THE “I AM”.
Do you know the MOST favorite?
Besides, if Michael came down and said he was before the patriarchs, they wouldn't assume Michael must be equal to God Almighty, right?
They weren't trying to stone him because they thought he was saying he was God, but because he was putting himself above their Father Abraham. They thought he was crazy and demon possesed.
I'm enjoying Ed and your discussion. You are both making solid points and bringing up good questions.
Carry on.peace and love,
mikeHello Mikeboll64,
Are you saying that “I AM” is past tense? Is that right what I think you are saying?
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,07:07) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,12:41) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,05:03) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,10:47) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,04:37) Hi Dennison, First let's start by you not altering what the text says; OK?
Matt.13:37…He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; …Are you saying: the “The Son of Man” is God?
No Ed J,
I ask you alot of questions that you are still refusing to answer.Dont hound keith for not answering questions and than do the very same thing.
and second. The Verse you posted, says that the one that sowed is the Son of Man, and the good seeds are the children of the kingdom.
1) Question: Is the Son of Man, the same as The Son of God, Jesus Christ?
2) Question: Is the Children of the Kingdom, the same as the Sons of God, Children of the Light?
Hi SF,Keep asking questions, SF, that's how you learn!
1) We are all “The Son's of Man”, Jesus uses this term to reference his humanity. (Heb.2:17)
2) We are predesignated to be “The Son's of God”; the same as Jesus was. (Romans 8:29)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,
Here is your problem, sometimes you think you know everything….. Can we not discuss like human beings?1) You didnt answer my question. So Who is the “Son of Man” who is sowing good seeds? So are you stating that the “son of Man” is everyone?
a) You Said:
Quote We are all “The Son's of Man”,
How can that be true if Jesus says the Devil is the Father of liars, and of the “tares”(Again you ignored my questions, how come you ask Keith to answer you questions, yet you play games with me?)
2) Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. First of all, this is talking about how we are to be in the Image of His Son (Jesus Christ)
So it could not possibly be true that we “All are Sons of God” because to be conformed, we must have NOT been Sons of God to be transformed into one.Take this more seriously Ed
Hi Dennison,1) The “HolySpirit” is what makes us children of the kingdom. …………………”Feast of Booths”
Jesus sacrifice enabled him to baptize us with the “HolySpirit”. ………………”Pentecost”
It was because Jesus was made like unto his brethren (Son of Man). ……”The Passover”2) There is no question in point #2. Also you don't see the word “ALL” in my response; do you?
Did you not say…
Quote 'Im HONESTLY asking for the sake of understanding. there is no sarcasm nor any threat to be concerned about' Let's try to avoid 'spin'; OK? First you change “Son of Man” into “Son of God”. Next you add in the word “ALL”.
It seems both of these actions were an attempt to make what I have been telling you into something false.
Perhaps there really is: 'a threat to be concerned about'? Why else would you be bothered by my statement…Quote Keep asking questions, SF, that's how you learn! God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,Quote Hi Dennison, 1) The “HolySpirit” is what makes us children of the kingdom. …………………”Feast of Booths”
Jesus sacrifice enabled him to baptize us with the “HolySpirit”. ………………”Pentecost”
It was because Jesus was made like unto his brethren (Son of Man). ……”The Passover”
Again: Who is the Identity “Son of Man” who is sowing good seeds?You didnt answer subpoint
I Repeat:Quote a) You Said: Quote We are all “The Son's of Man”,
How can that be true if Jesus says the Devil is the Father of liars, and of the “tares”Quote 2) There is no question in point #2. Also you don't see the word “ALL” in my response; do you?
I misread that. Let me Restate the situation with #2
I Asked:Quote 2) Question: Is the Children of the Kingdom, the same as the Sons of God, Children of the Light? Quote 2) We are predesignated to be “The Son's of God”; the same as Jesus was. (Romans 8:29)
In other words Ed, lets start from my orginal question.
Who are the Children of the kingdom?
you said “we” are predsignated to be “The Son's of God”
Who is “we”?Quote Let's try to avoid 'spin'; OK? First you change “Son of Man” into “Son of God”. Next you add in the word “ALL”.
It seems both o
f these actions were an attempt to make what I have been telling you into something false.
Perhaps there really is: 'a threat to be concerned about'? Why else would you be bothered by my statement…
No Attempt. Just a Misunderstanding.
You have to look at it the way I See “understood” your post.
it was a simple mistake.Of course im bothered by your statement, because it seems you are not here to learn, but instead you are desperate to Teach.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2011,07:44) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,12:53) Mike Quote “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, Jehovah!” What does that mean? If you want it to mean Jesus is saying he IS Jehovah, then he would have to say, “I have been I AM”. Without the “I have been”, he is just saying the name of God, not that he IS that God. And as you can see from my mock-up scripture above, it makes no sense whatsoever. It is like me saying, “Before we went to dinner……..Jehovah!”
Say homey,I dont think thats what Francis was refering to.
I think the fact that Jesus plainly stated that he was before the Jews Patriach, than that meant him to be equal with God.
IMO I THINK thats what Francis point was.I dont think he was making an emphasis on “I Am”
Listen up D-Linquent,I think you're wrong. That is the 2nd most favorite “Jesus is God” scripture for the trinitarians BECAUSE OF THE “I AM”.
Do you know the MOST favorite?
Besides, if Michael came down and said he was before the patriarchs, they wouldn't assume Michael must be equal to God Almighty, right?
They weren't trying to stone him because they thought he was saying he was God, but because he was putting himself above their Father Abraham. They thought he was crazy and demon possesed.
I'm enjoying Ed and your discussion. You are both making solid points and bringing up good questions.
Carry on.peace and love,
mike
Mike,Im confused.
I was reveiwing Francis Post, and i dont see where he made any emphasis on the phrase “I AM” as direct reference with Jehovah.
I understand where you coming from, and why your attacking it.
but what im saying is that i dont think Francis was trying to make that Point?
and if he is, can you copy and paste the intial point where Francis stated “that Jesus is God beacuse, Jesus stated that he is the 'I AM' “
Was Francis really argueing this point or contention?ADD
Quote Besides, if Michael came down and said he was before the patriarchs, they wouldn't assume Michael must be equal to God Almighty, right?
Did that actually happen biblicaly? so i dont think that would make a difference because michael is not Human.They wanted to stone Jesus for alot of things, including because he was equating himself to God.
In that reference, (If it were me debating) I would not personally focus on the “I Am” because its irrivalent, and i never even “thought” nor “understood” that point as evidence to relate it to the Genesis “I will be, that i will be”.So that Irrevalent. I would focus on why is it that the jews were so upset that Jesus would make a cliam that he is BEFORE Abraham.
in other words: the Patriach is an important figure, a hero of the faith, and this ordinary man is claiming that he is before/over/ the founder of this faith.
How is that possible?These question arise:
1) he is Crazy
2) he is claiming to be an angel
3) he is claiming to be Godhonestly, what else would a person think?
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,07:09) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,12:43) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,05:12) Hi SF, Feel free to bring the big boys back if this gets too tough for you; OK?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Thats a pretty Immature Comment Ed,
(I have the age to make such comments therefore excusable. but Your old, you should have a bit of more class)
Hi Dennison,OK; sorry!
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Its cool.
Water under the bridge.hello Dennison,
You asked me,
Quote Istari,
Let me ask you something Honestly and Sincerely,
I would like to know what you think.Was God always the Father?
And If so, how could that be? (Knowing full well for a being to have the title “Father” he must have Children to fufill that Role
and fullfill his role to provide and teach his children)But I had already asked of WorshippingJesus:
Quote If Jesus is the Son of god from Eternity…how did he become the Son…
For there to be a father – there has to be a Son.
First the MAN then the Father at the conception of the Son…
So the MAN must have existed before becoming a Father…yet Trinity says the Son always existed…please explain, thank you.So Dennison,
NO, I do not believe that God was ALWAYS the Father…for the very reason i asked WorshippingJesus the question.Scriptures says that God created the Angels – and the Angels are Sons of God – naturally – ALL who bare the Spirit of God are Sons of God (but there are degrees of Sonship – for God favoured Son Angels more than others and One more than all of them together!)
So if they are Sons of God then God is their Father.God becomes a Father the moment a Son is created… Ipso facto: He was not a Father until that moment…
Jesus is THREE TIMES “Son of God”.
1) In Heaven as an Angel
2) As Man in the Flesh (The second ADAM – A Sinless Man in the Flesh)
3) As Raised up/Begotten of God (Son of God WITH Power)Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,15:16) Hi Ed, Quote Let's try to avoid 'spin'; OK? First you change “Son of Man” into “Son of God”. Next you add in the word “ALL”.
It seems both of these actions were an attempt to make what I have been telling you into something false.
Perhaps there really is: 'a threat to be concerned about'? Why else would you be bothered by my statement…
No Attempt. Just a Misunderstanding.
You have to look at it the way I See “understood” your post.
it was a simple mistake.Of course im bothered by your statement, because it seems you are not here to learn, but instead you are desperate to Teach.
Hi Dennison,Not desperate at all, abundantly patient.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,15:21) Mike, These question arise:
1) he is Crazy
2) he is claiming to be an angel
3) he is claiming to be Godhonestly, what else would a person think?
Hi Dennison,Um, ah, da, um, that he's claiming to be “The Son of God” maybe?
Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
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