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Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 24 2013,12:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,04:36) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 21 2013,23:55) Hebrews 5:7
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications…..
To all those who believe Jesus is STILL a human being in heaven: What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “in the days of his flesh”?According to you guys, Jesus continues to be “in the days of his flesh”, right? So what do those words mean to you?
Hi Mike,The author would be referring to the “days” of his weak flesh!
Acts and Luke make it clear that when Jesus was raised from the dead, his spiritual body was one made of flesh!
I disagree. Luke 24:39 makes two things clear:1. Jesus was indeed raised with a flesh body.
2. Spirits do not have flesh.
Yet we know from 1 Cor 15:45 that Jesus became a spirit. And we know from 1 Cor 15:50 that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God………… a kingdom that Jesus has surely inherited.
You are forgetting Mike, that Acts tells us that “according to the flesh God would raise up the Christ to sit on His throne.”
That puts flesh on the throne in heaven!The resurrection of Jesus from the dead is of great significance, I see no scripture referring to some point in time where he became something after he was raised with a flesh and bones body.
1 Corinthians 15:35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?”…. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
WHAT is the body that Jesus was raised with? FLESH and BONES! Jesus with his flesh and bones body was certainly a life-giving spirit, as he went around showing his resurrection! The spirit or mind of Christ must be in us in order for Jesus to give us life. The scripture states that Jesus became a life giving spirit, it does not say he became a spirit being, and it certainly does not mention Jesus receiving a different body sometime after he was raised from the dead.
…42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
When Jesus left the tomb he arose from the dead with a spiritual body of flesh and bones. What made this body spiritual is that fact that it was immortal, and being immortal it did not have the power of death trying to have dominion over it. God had complete dominion!
Are you going to tell me Mike that when Jesus was raised from the dead and said he was flesh and bones, that body he was raised with could die?
This is what I do know, Flesh and Bones is what Jesus was raised from the dead with, “according to the FLESH God would raise up the Christ to sit on His throne,” so certainly Flesh and Bones inherits the Kingdom of God!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,17:33) You are forgetting Mike, that Acts tells us that “according to the flesh God would raise up the Christ to sit on His throne.”
That puts flesh on the throne in heaven!
Hi Jodi,First of all, the words “according to the flesh” are not even in the oldest and best mss of Acts 2:30. They are not in the Latin Vulgate, the Syriac, the Coptic, the Ethiopic, the Armenian, or the Alexandrian texts.
You will not see those words in any modern Bible, because the newer Bibles are translated from older and better mss than were available to the translators of the KJV.
Nor are those words in Psalm 132:11 – the verse Peter was quoting in Acts 2:30.
Secondly, even if we were to assume those words were legit, they don't say anything about Jesus STILL being flesh in heaven. Instead, they say that Jesus was the fruit of David's loins according to the flesh – nothing more. But we already know this from other scriptures, like Romans 1:3.
Thirdly, what do the words “according to the flesh” even mean in regard to a person who has never been anything BUT flesh?
The commentator Albert Barnes says it well, so I'll use his words here instead of my own:
Expressions like these are very remarkable. If the Messiah was only a man, they would be unmeaning. They are never used in relation to a mere man; and they imply that the speaker or writer supposed that there pertained to the Messiah a nature which was not according to the flesh.
Do you agree that his argument makes perfect sense?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2013,12:04) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,17:33) You are forgetting Mike, that Acts tells us that “according to the flesh God would raise up the Christ to sit on His throne.”
That puts flesh on the throne in heaven!
Hi Jodi,First of all, the words “according to the flesh” are not even in the oldest and best mss of Acts 2:30. They are not in the Latin Vulgate, the Syriac, the Coptic, the Ethiopic, the Armenian, or the Alexandrian texts.
You will not see those words in any modern Bible, because the newer Bibles are translated from older and better mss than were available to the translators of the KJV.
Nor are those words in Psalm 132:11 – the verse Peter was quoting in Acts 2:30.
Secondly, even if we were to assume those words were legit, they don't say anything about Jesus STILL being flesh in heaven. Instead, they say that Jesus was the fruit of David's loins according to the flesh – nothing more. But we already know this from other scriptures, like Romans 1:3.
Thirdly, what do the words “according to the flesh” even mean in regard to a person who has never been anything BUT flesh?
The commentator Albert Barnes says it well, so I'll use his words here instead of my own:
Expressions like these are very remarkable. If the Messiah was only a man, they would be unmeaning. They are never used in relation to a mere man; and they imply that the speaker or writer supposed that there pertained to the Messiah a nature which was not according to the flesh.
Do you agree that his argument makes perfect sense?
This is what it says,Acts 2:30 ASV
American Standard Version
Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set [one] upon his throne;The one that sits on the throne HAS the LOINS of David. Loins refers to a specific part of the flesh!
Acts 13:35 “Therefore He also says in another Psalm, 'YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.' 36 “For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay ; 37 but He whom God raised did not undergo decay.
Jesus did not undergo decay because his FLESHLY body received immortal life!
Which expression specifically is Barnes referring to?
Psalm 145:21 NAS
My mouth will speak the praise of the LORD, And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.How can all flesh praise the Lord forever and ever if there is going to be no more flesh?
Let's make this clear, it doesn't just say that Jesus WAS of the fruit of Davids Loins, it says God swore an oath to David that by the fruit of David's loins Jesus would sit on God's throne.
If I were to confess to any preconceived idea
I will admit that being taught Isaiah 11 as a young child, it was made clear in my heart that one day we would dwell on earth as God intended, where animals would no longer be wild trying to dominate over their own kind or kill other creatures, and we too would be the sort of creatures God intended at the beginning of creation before man fell.
YHWH IS going to give me glory within my own fleshly body, I will feel redemption IN MY FLESHLY BODY. Paul dreamed of the day!! Our HOPE is to be in that day! The human body is a magnificent creation, full of intelligent design, but you seem to want to destroy God's work in it, like it's a scrap to be thrown down the garbage disposal. Not me, I see the glory in God's creation with what He made on earth, and the redemptive form it will take when it is full of His knowledge.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,23:13) Which expression specifically is Barnes referring to?
“According to the flesh”. He is saying that this particular phrase is not, and could not, sensibly be said of anyone who has never been anything OTHER THAN flesh.The phrase “in the days of his flesh” is even more disconcerting for you folks. If Paul (presumably) could speak in a past tense of the days of Jesus' flesh, there is a VERY STRONG implication that Jesus is no longer flesh. If he were still flesh, there would be no meaning to “in the days of his flesh”. It would be a nonsensical statement.
Add that to Galatians 1:1 and 1:11, where Paul makes it clear that his gospel didn't come from any human being (anthropos), but from Jesus Christ.
Add that to 1 Corinthians 15:45 and 15:50, where Paul made it clear Jesus became a spirit, and that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Add that to Jesus' own teaching to Nicodemus in John 3 that flesh can neither see nor enter the kingdom of heaven, and therefore, to enter, one needs to be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh – namely, water and spirit.
Add all of those things (there are also more) to our God-given common sense that should tell us that Jesus is not the only flesh being living in the SPIRITUAL realm of heaven.
Jodi, we should seriously discuss some of these scriptures. We have discussed Heb 5:7, and concluded that you had to ADD the word “weak” into the text for your understanding to be realized. In my eyes, that is going too far to make a scripture teach what you WANT it to teach.
So now let's talk about Galatians 1. Or John 3. Or 1 Cor 15. Pick one and let's discuss it.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,23:13) The human body is a magnificent creation, full of intelligent design, but you seem to want to destroy God's work in it, like it's a scrap to be thrown down the garbage disposal.
Whoa, sister!I don't believe all will dwell in heaven after the resurrection. I believe heaven will be the dwelling place for the elect only. All others (the great crowd) will dwell on a new earth, where lions lay with lambs, and where there is no longer sickness, death, pain, or tears.
I believe those who are chosen to live on earth will be flesh beings.
If you read Paul, you'll begin to notice that the vast majority of his teachings are meant for the elect. He speaks and writes to everyone as if they are all part of the elect who will dwell in heaven.
You mentioned Phil 3:21 in the other thread. But Paul says in verse 20, “our citizenship is in heaven“. It is clear he is once again teaching of the glorious new spiritual (not “flesh”) bodies those whose citizenship is in heaven will someday have. And he says they will be bodies like Jesus now has.
Jodi, did you know the Syriac text translates Heb 5:7's “days of his flesh” as “when he was clothed with flesh”? Compare that wording with Paul's teaching in 2 Cor 5:1-5. In that passage, Paul once again confirms that the earthly tent (body) of those whose citizenship is to be in heaven will be destroyed, and God will clothe them with a new, heavenly dwelling, to replace the earthly tent that was destroyed.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,23:13) Acts 13:35 “Therefore He also says in another Psalm, 'YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.'
Why do you suppose that is, Jodi? If the flesh of all who came before Jesus was subject to decay, and the flesh of all who come after Jesus will be destroyed (2 Cor 5), why was it necessary for Jesus' flesh to not see decay?Was it perhaps that, like no one else who came before him, or will come after him, Jesus still had a mission to do ON EARTH before ascending to heaven?
Of course it was. The flesh of Jesus could not decay when he still had 40 days of missions on earth yet to do after his resurrection. No one before him had this situation. And no one after him will have it either. Only Jesus needed to keep his flesh body for a while longer before ascending to heaven.
It is for this reason that Jesus' flesh did not see decay. And it is for this reason that Jesus was the only exception to Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15 about the bodies of the resurrected.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2013,11:18) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,23:13) Which expression specifically is Barnes referring to?
“According to the flesh”. He is saying that this particular phrase is not, and could not, sensibly be said of anyone who has never been anything OTHER THAN flesh.The phrase “in the days of his flesh” is even more disconcerting for you folks. If Paul (presumably) could speak in a past tense of the days of Jesus' flesh, there is a VERY STRONG implication that Jesus is no longer flesh. If he were still flesh, there would be no meaning to “in the days of his flesh”. It would be a nonsensical statement.
Add that to Galatians 1:1 and 1:11, where Paul makes it clear that his gospel didn't come from any human being (anthropos), but from Jesus Christ.
Add that to 1 Corinthians 15:45 and 15:50, where Paul made it clear Jesus became a spirit, and that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Add that to Jesus' own teaching to Nicodemus in John 3 that flesh can neither see nor enter the kingdom of heaven, and therefore, to enter, one needs to be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh – namely, water and spirit.
Add all of those things (there are also more) to our God-given common sense that should tell us that Jesus is not the only flesh being living in the SPIRITUAL realm of heaven.
Jodi, we should seriously discuss some of these scriptures. We have discussed Heb 5:7, and concluded that you had to ADD the word “weak” into the text for your understanding to be realized. In my eyes, that is going too far to make a scripture teach what you WANT it to teach.
So now let's talk about Galatians 1. Or John 3. Or 1 Cor 15. Pick one and let's discuss it.
Sorry for the late response! I have been busy as well as on a hiking trip!No surprise! I will have to disagree with Barnes reasoning!
2 John 1:7 RSV
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.Romans 1:3 RSV
the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the fleshIt needed to be stated that Jesus was in fact flesh, for many started speculating otherwise. The point Paul was bringing out was that Jesus was in fact the promised Messiah, prophesied to be of the loins of David.
Romans 4:1 RSV
What then shall we say about Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?Does Barnes assume that Abraham pre-existed with Jesus?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2013,11:18) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,23:13) Which expression specifically is Barnes referring to?
“According to the flesh”. He is saying that this particular phrase is not, and could not, sensibly be said of anyone who has never been anything OTHER THAN flesh.The phrase “in the days of his flesh” is even more disconcerting for you folks. If Paul (presumably) could speak in a past tense of the days of Jesus' flesh, there is a VERY STRONG implication that Jesus is no longer flesh. If he were still flesh, there would be no meaning to “in the days of his flesh”. It would be a nonsensical statement.
Add that to Galatians 1:1 and 1:11, where Paul makes it clear that his gospel didn't come from any human being (anthropos), but from Jesus Christ.
Add that to 1 Corinthians 15:45 and 15:50, where Paul made it clear Jesus became a spirit, and that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Add that to Jesus' own teaching to Nicodemus in John 3 that flesh can neither see nor enter the kingdom of heaven, and therefore, to enter, one needs to be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh – namely, water and spirit.
Add all of those things (there are also more) to our God-given common sense that should tell us that Jesus is not the only flesh being living in the SPIRITUAL realm of heaven.
Jodi, we should seriously discuss some of these scriptures. We have discussed Heb 5:7, and concluded that you had to ADD the word “weak” into the text for your understanding to be realized. In my eyes, that is going too far to make a scripture teach what you WANT it to teach.
So now let's talk about Galatians 1. Or John 3. Or 1 Cor 15. Pick one and let's discuss it.
I would like to discuss Hebrews 5:7 a little more!Hebrews 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
Paul speaks extensively about man's weak flesh and how he cannot wait for the redemption of his body. When discussing Christ before he rose from the dead we can assume he is talking about weak flesh. Do we know for a fact that Jesus existed in a different kind of flesh? Yes we do, he was raised from the dead with a flesh and bones body no longer to be able to die anymore!
Romans 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ.
This is not past tense, he IS still flesh, he IS of the loins of Abraham and David.
Acts 2:30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Acts 24:21 except this one thing which I cried out while standing among them, 'With respect to the resurrection of the dead I am on trial before you this day.'”
Romans 1:4 and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
It is ALL ABOUT the resurrection from the dead! As Jesus was raised from the dead, we too shall be! What BODY was Jesus given WHEN he rose from the dead?
Can you explain your understanding of Acts 2?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2013,11:18) Add that to Galatians 1:1 and 1:11, where Paul makes it clear that his gospel didn't come from any human being (anthropos), but from Jesus Christ. Add that to 1 Corinthians 15:45 and 15:50, where Paul made it clear Jesus became a spirit, and that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Add that to Jesus' own teaching to Nicodemus in John 3 that flesh can neither see nor enter the kingdom of heaven, and therefore, to enter, one needs to be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh – namely, water and spirit.
Add all of those things (there are also more) to our God-given common sense that should tell us that Jesus is not the only flesh being living in the SPIRITUAL realm of heaven.
Jodi, we should seriously discuss some of these scriptures. We have discussed Heb 5:7, and concluded that you had to ADD the word “weak” into the text for your understanding to be realized. In my eyes, that is going too far to make a scripture teach what you WANT it to teach.
So now let's talk about Galatians 1. Or John 3. Or 1 Cor 15. Pick one and let's discuss it.
The Gospel does not come from a human being it comes from YHWH. Jesus is a deliverer of God's message, and he himself is God's message, being the man that fulfilled the Promise that was made before time began.
Jesus Christ is STILL a human being, he is the “coming son of man”!
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Flesh and bones can inherit the kingdom! The very fruit of David's loins sits on the throne! You cannot rely on flesh and blood to save you, only the Spirit of YHWH can cause you to inherit the kingdom of God! Those that walk according to the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God! You must be baptized with the Holy Spirit!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2013,11:36) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,23:13) The human body is a magnificent creation, full of intelligent design, but you seem to want to destroy God's work in it, like it's a scrap to be thrown down the garbage disposal.
Whoa, sister!I don't believe all will dwell in heaven after the resurrection. I believe heaven will be the dwelling place for the elect only. All others (the great crowd) will dwell on a new earth, where lions lay with lambs, and where there is no longer sickness, death, pain, or tears.
I believe those who are chosen to live on earth will be flesh beings.
If you read Paul, you'll begin to notice that the vast majority of his teachings are meant for the elect. He speaks and writes to everyone as if they are all part of the elect who will dwell in heaven.
You mentioned Phil 3:21 in the other thread. But Paul says in verse 20, “our citizenship is in heaven“. It is clear he is once again teaching of the glorious new spiritual (not “flesh”) bodies those whose citizenship is in heaven will someday have. And he says they will be bodies like Jesus now has.
Jodi, did you know the Syriac text translates Heb 5:7's “days of his flesh” as “when he was clothed with flesh”? Compare that wording with Paul's teaching in 2 Cor 5:1-5. In that passage, Paul once again confirms that the earthly tent (body) of those whose citizenship is to be in heaven will be destroyed, and God will clothe them with a new, heavenly dwelling, to replace the earthly tent that was destroyed.
“our citizenship is in heaven” means that our citizenship dwells with God. The New Jerusalem will come down from heaven! Literally?..no!Revelation 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband;
Revelation 21:3 and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them;
Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them; I will take the stony heart out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my ordinances and obey them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. 28 You shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will live in them and move among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jodi……..Sorry for interupting you and Mikes debate, but i just wanted to thank you for these Last posts of your, and may be they will cause Mike to rethink some things, aleast i hope they will.
peace and love to you and yours sis……………………………………….gene
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 02 2013,22:33) Romans 4:1 RSV
What then shall we say about Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?Does Barnes assume that Abraham pre-existed with Jesus?
Not at all, Jodi. We must consider what Paul is teaching us in that passage. He is saying, 2 If, for instance, Abraham were declared righteous as a result of works, he would have ground for boasting…………3 But instead of trying to gain righteousness ACCORDING TO THE FLESH (by works), Abraham exercised faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness.
The NKJV has Romans 4:1 translated (almost) correctly: What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
Their translation should read “gained” instead of “found”, but they have worded it in the right order. The question, “What did our forefather Abraham gain according to the flesh?”, is rhetorical, and assumes the answer of “NOTHING!” Abraham gained nothing by his own works according to the flesh, but everything by his unquestioned faith in Jehovah. As Paul explains in verse 3, it was not the works of flesh hands that gained Abraham righteousness, but his faith in God alone that was credited to him as righteousness.
In other words, there is nothing any of us can do according to our flesh that would be reckoned as righteousness by our God. But having faith in God can be credited to us as righteousness, as it was credited to Abraham as righteousness.
The majority of the commentators, including Barnes, understand that the “according to the flesh” part of the verse goes with “gained” – and not with the “our forefather” part. Here are some of their comments:
Barnes
This expression is one that has been much controverted. In the original, it may refer either to Abraham as their father “according to the flesh,” that is, their natural father, or from whom they were descended; or it may be connected with “hath found.”“What shall we say that Abraham our father hath found in respect to the flesh?” κατὰ σάρκα kata sarka. The latter is doubtless the proper connection.
Gill
…..now the question put concerning him is, “what he, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?”Vincent's Word Studies
As pertaining to the flesh (κατὰ σάρκα)Construe with found. The question is, Was Abraham justified by anything which pertained to the flesh?
Geneva Study Bible
…….this is the proposition: if Abraham is considered in himself by his works, (according to the flesh) he has deserved nothing with which to rejoice with God.Wesley's Notes
According to the flesh – That is, by works.Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
What shall we say then that Abraham, our father as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?-that is, (as the order in the original shows), “hath found, as pertaining to ('according to,' or 'through') the flesh”; meaning, “by all his natural efforts or legal obedience.”Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary
What has he found, kata sarka-as pertaining to the flesh, that is, by circumcision and his external privileges and performances? These the apostle calls flesh, Phil. 3:3. Now what did he get by these? Was he justified by them? Was it the merit of his works that recommended him to God's acceptance? No, by no means, which he proves by several arguments.So you can see that the commentators seem to be in agreement that it is not saying, “our father according to the flesh”, but “what has our father gained according to the flesh”.
But Jodi, you don't have to agree with these men. Instead, just think it out in your own mind. What would it mean to say Abraham was our father “according to the flesh”? Wouldn't that beg the question, “As opposed to WHAT – if not flesh?”
See what I mean? The words “according to the flesh” would mean nothing for people who had never been anything BUT flesh.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 02 2013,23:40) I would like to discuss Hebrews 5:7 a little more! Hebrews 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
Paul speaks extensively about man's weak flesh………..
So is that the end of it? Paul says “in the days of his flesh”, CLEARLY implying that he is NO LONGER “in the days of his flesh”. And your rebuttal is: I will add the word “weak” into the scripture, so it fits my doctrine ?It doesn't SAY “in the days of his WEAK flesh”, does it? Why then would you ADD that word into a scriptural teaching?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 02 2013,23:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2013,11:18) Add that to Galatians 1:1 and 1:11, where Paul makes it clear that his gospel didn't come from any human being (anthropos), but from Jesus Christ. Add that to 1 Corinthians 15:45 and 15:50, where Paul made it clear Jesus became a spirit, and that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Add that to Jesus' own teaching to Nicodemus in John 3 that flesh can neither see nor enter the kingdom of heaven, and therefore, to enter, one needs to be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh – namely, water and spirit.
Add all of those things (there are also more) to our God-given common sense that should tell us that Jesus is not the only flesh being living in the SPIRITUAL realm of heaven.
Jodi, we should seriously discuss some of these scriptures. We have discussed Heb 5:7, and concluded that you had to ADD the word “weak” into the text for your understanding to be realized. In my eyes, that is going too far to make a scripture teach what you WANT it to teach.
So now let's talk about Galatians 1. Or John 3. Or 1 Cor 15. Pick one and let's discuss it.
The Gospel does not come from a human being it comes from YHWH. Jesus is a deliverer of God's message, and he himself is God's message, being the man that fulfilled the Promise that was made before time began.
Jesus Christ is STILL a human being, he is the “coming son of man”!
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Flesh and bones can inherit the kingdom! The very fruit of David's loins sits on the throne! You cannot rely on flesh and blood to save you, only the Spirit of YHWH can cause you to inherit the kingdom of God! Those that walk according to the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God! You must be baptized with the Holy Spirit!
Jodi,Your posts seems to avoid the actual point.
1. Did Paul clearly say that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God? YES or NO?
2. Did Jesus clearly say that flesh can neither SEE nor ENTER the kingdom of heaven? YES or NO?
3. Did Paul receive his gospel directly from Jesus Christ? YES or NO?
4. Did he later testify that he did NOT receive his gospel from any HUMAN BEING, but from Jesus Christ? YES or NO?
5. Did Paul clearly say that Jesus became a SPIRIT? YES or NO?
These are the points I would like addressed in a DIRECT manner – if you don't mind.
(Also, read John 3, where Jesus doesn't distinguish between “flesh and blood” or “flesh and bone” – as if there is some difference. Jesus mentions only “flesh” – period. And he teaches that we must be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to see, or enter the kingdom of heaven.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2013,11:49) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 25 2013,23:13) Acts 13:35 “Therefore He also says in another Psalm, 'YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.'
Why do you suppose that is, Jodi? If the flesh of all who came before Jesus was subject to decay, and the flesh of all who come after Jesus will be destroyed (2 Cor 5), why was it necessary for Jesus' flesh to not see decay?Was it perhaps that, like no one else who came before him, or will come after him, Jesus still had a mission to do ON EARTH before ascending to heaven?
Of course it was. The flesh of Jesus could not decay when he still had 40 days of missions on earth yet to do after his resurrection. No one before him had this situation. And no one after him will have it either. Only Jesus needed to keep his flesh body for a while longer before ascending to heaven.
It is for this reason that Jesus' flesh did not see decay. And it is for this reason that Jesus was the only exception to Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15 about the bodies of the resurrected.
I would have to disagree with your opinion as to WHY the flesh of Jesus was not allowed to decay.I believe this is an elementary part of theTRUE Gospel!
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Acts 2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
The flesh of Jesus was not allowed to decay because being sinless it was not deserving of it. Jesus should not have been subject to death or decay because he lived without sin. When Adam sinned he became worthy of death, and God put the whole world under death and decay. Death became our enemy and the carnal mind was born.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned…15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous
Acts 2:25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' 29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
The flesh of Jesus was not allowed to decay because God was restoring his original creation before God subjected it to death because of sin.
Acts 13:34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption,
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Ephesians 1:20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Notice it is not about when he changed him into something afterwards and seated Him at His right hand, it's about the “being” that was raised from the dead!!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 27 2013,11:18) Add that to 1 Corinthians 15:45 and 15:50, where Paul made it clear Jesus became a spirit, and that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you–unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. 12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up–if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. 29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? 30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!” 33 Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.” 34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame. 35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain–perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
ALL the significance lies within the BODY Jesus WAS RAISED WITH!!
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The BODY is raised in incorruption, in glory and power, it is RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY, Jesus WAS RAISED with a SPIRITUAL BODY that was flesh and bones!!
45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
Verse 45 does not say that Jesus became a spirit being, it says he became a life giving spirit. To be spiritually mind united with the spirit in Christ causes you to inherit the kingdom of God.
NOTICE Mike that Paul is talking about WHEN Jesus was raised from the dead. Jesus BECAME a life giving spirit WHEN HE WAS RAISED from the dead. When Jesus was raised with a flesh and bones body he WAS a life giving spirit. He was seen first hand by people who then would have hope in the redemption of their bodies. Those who are united in Christ’s spirit and are like minded with him, receive eternal life!
Oops, you left out blood, when you said flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Flesh and blood does not reveal the truth, flesh and blood cannot bring man into eternal life, the Spirit of God causes our redemption.
Flesh and Bones is what we know Jesus was raised with WHEN he RECEIVED power, glory and an incorruptible body.
The resurrection into eternal life exists in a flesh and bones body!!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 21 2013,15:36) Verse 45 does not say that Jesus became a spirit being, it says he became a life giving spirit. To be spiritually mind united with the spirit in Christ causes you to inherit the kingdom of God.
So how about the unclean spirits that Jesus and the disciples drove out of humans? Were they spirit BEINGS?How about when Paul says “angels are ministering spirits”. Doesn't he mean they are spirit BEINGS who minister to humans?
The fact is that the word “spirit” often refers to a spirit BEING in scripture, Jodi. Just like the word “human” most often refers to a human BEING. Do you agree with this?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 21 2013,15:36) Oops, you left out blood, when you said flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
I left it out for two reasons:1. It is ludicrous to thing that “flesh and BLOOD” can't inherit God's kingdom, but “flesh and BONE” can.
Do a search for the words “flesh and blood” in any scriptural database. You'll find that in the OT, the common phrase was actually “flesh and bone”…….. yet most Bible's translate as “flesh and blood”, because they know that either phrase refers to human beings. And since in today's society, “flesh and blood” is use much more often than “flesh and bone”, they translate “flesh and bone” as “flesh and blood”.
Consider:
2 Samuel 19:13 King James Version
And say ye to Amasa, Art thou not of my bone, and of my flesh?Compare with these other translations:
New International Version (©2011)
And say to Amasa, 'Are you not my own flesh and blood?New Living Translation (©2007)
And David told them to tell Amasa, “Since you are my own flesh and blood………Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
And tell Amasa, 'Aren't you my flesh and blood?International Standard Version (©2012)
Then ask Amasa, 'Aren't you my own flesh and blood?NET Bible (©2006)
Say to Amasa, 'Are you not my flesh and blood?GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
And tell Amasa, 'Aren't you my flesh and blood?The phrases “flesh and bone” and “flesh and blood” mean the same thing, Jodi.
Although Jesus chose to use the old school “flesh and bone” in Luke 24:39, he still meant the same thing, which is………………..
Matthew 16:17
…..this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.1 Corinthians 15:50
….flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.Galatians 1:16
……immediately I conferred not with flesh and bloodEphesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against…..the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;Jodi, what do all of these mentions of “flesh and blood” have in common? They all refer to being a HUMAN BEING.
So when Paul said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, he was saying that HUMAN BEINGS cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. He was saying that HUMAN BEINGS cannot dwell in the spiritual realm of heaven, where only spirit beings dwell.
2. I already nipped the “flesh and bone is different than flesh and blood” argument in the bud by pointing you to John 3.
John 3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
The teaching is that flesh gives birth to flesh, so anyone who hopes to enter, or even SEE the kingdom of God, must be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh – namely, water and spirit.
As I pointed out for you, Jesus doesn't distinguish between “flesh and blood” and “flesh and bone”. He simply say FLESH, period. FLESH cannot enter or see the kingdom of God, Jodi.
That teaching came from Jesus himself. You can believe him or not – it's really up to you.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 21 2013,15:36) The resurrection into eternal life exists in a flesh and bones body!!
I really don't know what to tell you. It is beyond me how people can believe Jesus is the ONLY flesh-bodied human being existing all by himself among the millions of SPIRIT beings in the SPIRIT realm of heaven. To me, it is akin to believing in Santa Clause, or the Easter Bunny. It just blows my mind what people will create out of their own imaginations to have a Jesus that they feel more “comfortable” with. Or a Jesus that makes them feel more “empowered” if they can imagine he has never been anything other than human; and remains human to this very day.Listen:
1. The Hebrews verse YOU posted clearly mentions how Jesus prayed WHEN HE WAS IN THE DAYS OF HIS FLESH. This means when he was a HUMAN BEING. It also means he ISN'T a flesh human being anymore.
2. Galatians 1:1 and 11 clearly tell us that Paul DID receive his gospel from Jesus, but DID NOT receive it from any human being.
3. Both Paul and Jesus clearly tell us that FLESH cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. (Just forget the “and bone” or “and blood”, because if FLESH cannot enter, then FLESH cannot enter…….. PERIOD.)
4. Jesus tells us that spirits DON'T have flesh, yet Paul tells us that Jesus became a spirit.
5. God dwells in unapproachable light. It is nonsensical to think a HUMAN BEING sits at His right hand in the SPIRIT realm of heaven.
I could go on, but this is more than enough for me to believe that Jesus is not still a flesh human being in heaven. If you want to keep believing he is, then that is your choice.
Let's move on to the pre-existence subject, okay?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2013,05:29) Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 02 2013,23:40) I would like to discuss Hebrews 5:7 a little more! Hebrews 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
Paul speaks extensively about man's weak flesh………..
So is that the end of it? Paul says “in the days of his flesh”, CLEARLY implying that he is NO LONGER “in the days of his flesh”. And your rebuttal is: I will add the word “weak” into the scripture, so it fits my doctrine ?It doesn't SAY “in the days of his WEAK flesh”, does it? Why then would you ADD that word into a scriptural teaching?
Seems like we are running around in circles here,You are accusing me of “adding” to scripture. You and I both well know that one does not base their understanding of a scripture without the knowledge and use of other scriptures!!
Once again, Paul does in fact discuss weak flesh and I am using his words to understand his words!!
Romans 6:19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
Romans 7: 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Paul did not say weak flesh in Romans 5, however I know that is the type of flesh that he is referring too. Weak flesh is flesh that can die and thus flesh that can be tempted.
2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Regard no one according to that weak flesh, the same flesh that we know Christ as well had. Christ no longer has that weak flesh, he no longer has flesh that tempts him, that draws his service to his body rather than to God.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The fact of the matter is, Jesus was RAISED FLESH and bones in a body of glory and power that was incorruptible, this truth gives even further light to understanding what Paul meant in 2 Corinthians 5.
The mind of Christ was perfected in a mortal body. The mind of Christ learned obedience to God. Combine a perfected human mind with an immortal human body, there will exist NOTHING to cause a man to sin.
Mike, Paul says “we regard no one according to the flesh,” while they are indeed still in the flesh.
Matthew 24:30
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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