Michael, who is he?

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2012,12:48)

Quote (shimmer @ Mar. 29 2012,03:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2012,13:30) Nick, Can you refute the FACT that spirit messengers of God are typically called “angels” in scripture?  YES or NO? Can you refute the FACT that angels of God are called gods in scripture?  YES or NO? Can you refute the FACT that all who are called gods in scripture, and who are not the Most High God, are lesser gods?  YES or NO? MIKE (And all). Col 2.18. (YLT) “Let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and in worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh”. Hi Shimmer, I don't understand.  Do you think this scripture is refuting any of the three points I made to Nick?  If so, please explain how.

Hi Mike, please read the quoted commentaries on the verse I gave.  My message was not just to you, but to anyone. (It was more to do with Spirit Bodies than here – maybe I put it in the wrong thread?).

[shimmer]

Col 2.18. (YLT)

“Let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and in worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh”.

Commentaries.

Gills:

“Intruding into those things which he hath not seen; thrusting himself in a bold and daring manner into an inquiry and search after, debate upon, and affirmation of things he could have no certain knowledge of; as of angels, whose nature, qualities, works, and ministrations, he had never seen with his bodily eyes; nor could ever discern with the eyes of his understanding any such things in the Scriptures, which he ascribed to them; but they were the birth of his own mind, the fruits of his own fancy and imagination, things devised in his own brain: being vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind; judging of things not according to the word of God, and with a spiritual judgment, and according to a spiritual sense and experience, but according to his own carnal reason, and the vanity of his mind; being puffed and swelled with an high opinion of himself, of his great parts and abilities, of his knowledge of things above others, and of his capacity to penetrate into, and find out things which were not seen and known by others: this shows that his humility was forced, and only in outward appearance, and was not true and genuine”.

Barnes:

“Intruding into those things which he hath not seen – Or inquiring into them. The word used here (e?µßate?´?? embateuo¯n) means to go in, or enter; then to investigate, to inquire. It has not, properly, the meaning of intruding, or of impertinent inquiry (see Passow), and I do not see that the apostle meant to characterize the inquiry here as such. He says that it was the object of their investigations to look, with great professed modesty and reverence, into those things which are not visible to the eye of mortals. The “things” which seem here to be particularly referred to, are the abstruse questions respecting the mode of the divine subsistence; the ranks, orders, and employments of angelic beings; and the obscure doctrines relating to the divine government and plans. These questions comprised most of the subjects of inquiry in the Oriental and Grecian philosophy, and inquiries on these the apostle apprehended would tend to draw away the mind from the “simplicity that is in Christ.” Of these subjects what can be known more than is revealed?

Vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind – Notwithstanding the avowed “humility,” the modesty, the angelic reverence, yet the mind was full of vain conceit, and self-confident, carnal wisdom. The two things are by no means incompatible – the men apparently most meek and modest being sometimes the most bold in their speculations, and the most reckless in regard to the great landmarks of truth”.

Clarkes:

“Hence the whole passage has been paraphrased thus: Let no man spoil you of the prize adjudged to you, who delights in mortifying his body, and walking with the apparent modesty of an angel, affecting superior sanctity in order to gain disciples; intruding into things which he has not seen; and, notwithstanding his apparent humility, his mind is carnal, and he is puffed up with a sense of his superior knowledge and piety”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Mar. 29 2012,21:06)

Hi Mike, please read the quoted commentaries on the verse I gave. My message was not just to you, but to anyone. (It was more to do with Spirit Bodies than here – maybe I put it in the wrong thread?).

I can't see where they speak about Michael or the bodies of spirits. Perhaps you could point it out to me?

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2012,12:20)

Nick, Both David and I have explained this to you already.  Our words are in this very thread, would you care to read them. But once again, the Hebrew word “mal'ak” and the Greek word “aggelos” mean “messenger”. When context dictates it is a human messenger described, then English translators render the word as “messenger”.  But when it is certain from the context that the passage describes a spirit messenger of God, English translators render the words as “angel”. In English, an angel is a SPIRIT messenger of God.

Mike……..Who gave English translators the right to determine where it it referring to “ANGELS” or Messengers as being different.
According to Strong”s Concordance  the Words  Both Words mean “MESSENGERS”

So how can you make them different “types” of Beings, When the definitions for the WORDS are the same.

As far as Spirit being one while the other is not a Spirit being that also is false because a Man is moved by the Spirits working (IN) Him Just as any messenger is . Neither of these distinguish a different “BODIED beings  as you suppose they do. The words in Hebrew or Greek simply means Messengers ONLY> It has nothing to do with KIND OF BODIES AT ALL.  

Mike you are speculating again>  Spirit is Spirit and A BODY is a BODY , and when Spirits are (IN) a BODY then you have a “BEING” with a Body known as “A LIVING SOUL”, and when GOD sends them out to do his work they are his “MESSENGERS” or, his ANGELS with BODIES, Who have “HIS” Spirit (INTELLECTS) WORKING (IN) them.

The mixing up of Spirits meaning Angels is a Hugh error , because Spirits are not Bodies or Angels of any kind. IMO

peace and love…………………………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Gene,

Angels and demons are spirits, whether or not you personally accept this fact.

As far as the translators deciding if “aggelos” refers to a human messenger or a spirit one, they use the context.  But you are free to disagree with their interpretation in any particular scripture.

Do you have one in mind where the translators have rendered “angel” but you think is was a human messenger?

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike………What i am saying is There exists no such thing as a SPIRIT “BODY” of ANY KIND and there is NO DEVIL BEING but a SPIRIT that is (IN) PEOPLE . Just as (IT) was (IN) PETER, Notice i said a (IT) NOT a PERSON of any kind. But an (IT) why becasue Spirits are NOT PERSONS they are (IT'S) They are KINDS and TYPES but never “BEINGS” as YOU and Many suppose. Angels “BEINGS” are NOT (IT'S) or SPIRITS they a BEINGS with BODIES and SPIRITS (IN) them Just as we are BEINGS with BODIES and have Spirits also. WE can be Messengers (angels) and They can Be Messengers (angels) also.

Tell us Mike what doe this mean to you , “And unto the Angels of the Church….>, Write” Now notice you “ENGLISH” translators used Angels their But it should have read Messenger (which was John HIMSELF> Who Jesus was disclosing his recieved word from GOD to.

The confusion over and angel and Messengers has caused a lot of Speculations like your are. We are ONLY a “LITTLE” below the Angels or Messengers of GOD IMO

peace and love……………………………………………………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 31 2012,11:48)

Tell us Mike what doe this mean to you , “And unto the Angels of the Church….>, Write” Now notice you “ENGLISH” translators used Angels their But it should have read Messenger

To which scripture do you refer, Gene?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Mal 1
1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

So the FIRST messenger is not an angel but John the baptist.

Then the LORD [jewish substitution for YHWH] will come to His temple.
God in Jesus Christ came to the temple and cleansed it of worldly commerce.

Even the MESSENGER OF THE COVENANT whom ye delight in; behold he shall come;saith the LORD of HOSTS[always a reference to YHWH]
So God speaks of Jesus Christ as the messenger of the covenant.

So you have as much justification for calling Jesus an angel as you have for saying the same about John.
And no witnessing verses.

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike…………. Try Rev 2:1,2:8,2:12,2:18,3:1;3:7,3:14 all used the word Angel and mean Messenger. And read what Nick wrote also.

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Gene,

I have to say you make a good point.  Why would John need to WRITE something down for the ANGELS of the congregations?  These would be better translated as “messengers” of the congregations, for it seems agreed among the commentators that Jesus refers to HUMAN messengers.

From Barnes:
Unto the angel – The minister; the presiding presbyter; the bishop – in the primitive sense of the word “bishop” – denoting one who had the spiritual charge of a congregation.

From Clarke:
Unto the angel of the Church of Ephesus – By αγγελος, angel, we are to understand the messenger or person sent by God to preside over this Church; and to him the epistle is directed, not as pointing out his state, but the state of the Church under his care. Angel of the Church here answers exactly to that officer of the synagogue among the Jews called שליח ציבור sheliach tsibbur, the messenger of the Church, whose business it was to read, pray, and teach in the synagogue.

And from Gill:
the seven stars which John saw in Christ's right hand, represent the angels, or pastors of the seven churches of Asia, and in them all the pastors and ministers of the churches in all the periods of time until Christ's second coming. Here it may be observed, that the ministers of the Gospel are not only compared to “stars”, for which see Gill on Revelation 1:16; but likewise to “angels”, which signifies “messengers”, as ministers are sent forth by Christ with the message of the Gospel to publish to the sons of men; and as the angels are Christ's ministering spirits, so are the preachers of the Gospel the ministers of Christ, that wait upon him and serve him in the ministry of the word,

So I agree with you that “angel” is not the correct translation in the scriptures you listed.

As for Nick's post, I make only this one point, Gene:

Traditionally, we of the English language consider an angel to be a SPIRIT messenger of God.  Gene, the Rev scriptures you listed aside, do you agree that this is the case?

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2012,15:04)

Hi, Mal 1 1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. So the FIRST messenger is not an angel but John the baptist. Then the LORD [jewish substitution for YHWH] will come to His temple. God in Jesus Christ came to the temple and cleansed it of worldly commerce. Even the MESSENGER OF THE COVENANT whom ye delight in; behold he shall come;saith the LORD of HOSTS[always a reference to YHWH] So God speaks of Jesus Christ as the messenger of the covenant. So you have as much justification for calling Jesus an angel as you have for saying the same about John. And no witnessing verses.

N

Mal 3:1 “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.
Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
Mal 3:3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,
Mal 3:4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years.
Mal 3:5 “So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me,” says the LORD Almighty

Quote

Then the LORD [jewish substitution for YHWH] will come to His temple.

this is not God in Jesus Christ IT REFER TO CHRIST ,SON OF DAVID THE KING,THE MESSIAH ,THE SON OF GOD

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 02 2012,10:31)

Gene, I have to say you make a good point.  Why would John need to WRITE something down for the ANGELS of the congregations?  These would be better translated as “messengers” of the congregations, for it seems agreed among the commentators that Jesus refers to HUMAN messengers. From Barnes: Unto the angel – The minister; the presiding presbyter; the bishop – in the primitive sense of the word “bishop” – denoting one who had the spiritual charge of a congregation. From Clarke: Unto the angel of the Church of Ephesus – By αγγελος, angel, we are to understand the messenger or person sent by God to preside over this Church; and to him the epistle is directed, not as pointing out his state, but the state of the Church under his care. Angel of the Church here answers exactly to that officer of the synagogue among the Jews called שליח ציבור sheliach tsibbur, the messenger of the Church, whose business it was to read, pray, and teach in the synagogue. And from Gill: the seven stars which John saw in Christ's right hand, represent the angels, or pastors of the seven churches of Asia, and in them all the pastors and ministers of the churches in all the periods of time until Christ's second coming. Here it may be observed, that the ministers of the Gospel are not only compared to “stars”, for which see Gill on Revelation 1:16; but likewise to “angels”, which signifies “messengers”, as ministers are sent forth by Christ with the message of the Gospel to publish to the sons of men; and as the angels are Christ's ministering spirits, so are the preachers of the Gospel the ministers of Christ, that wait upon him and serve him in the ministry of the word, So I agree with you that “angel” is not the correct translation in the scriptures you listed. As for Nick's post, I make only this one point, Gene: Traditionally, we of the English language consider an angel to be a SPIRIT messenger of God.  Gene, the Rev scriptures you listed aside, do you agree that this is the case?

mIKE

this is a light to me but it open one more light ,look now to what it says;;

And from Gill:
the seven stars which John saw in Christ's right hand, represent the angels, or pastors of the seven churches of Asia, and in them all the pastors and ministers of the churches in all the periods of time until Christ's second coming. Here it may be observed, that the ministers of the Gospel are not only compared to “stars”, for which see Gill on Revelation 1:16; but likewise to “angels”, which signifies “messengers”, as ministers are sent forth by Christ with the message of the Gospel to publish to the sons of men; and as the angels are Christ's ministering spirits, so are the preachers of the Gospel the ministers of Christ, that wait upon him and serve him in the ministry of the word,

so the stars that are falling are not out of the heaven but are leaders of the churches IS THIS NOT WHAT WE SEE HAPPEN THE PAST 15 YEARS OF SCANDALS IN ALL RELIGION DENOMINATIONS

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
Back on the old INTELLECT idea?
Why add to scripture?

[mikeboll64]

That is one way to take it, Pierre. I tend to understand the scriptures more literally, for the most part.

When Jesus says, “the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken”, I take it literally.

But that doesn't mean I'm right about it. You do make a good point, and perhaps that “light” that went on in your head was from a supernatural source.

peace to you my good friend,
mike

[NickHassan]

Hi T.
Then the LORD [jewish substitution for YHWH] will come to His temple.

In the OT, LORD generally does not refer to Yahshua

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,21:06)

Hi T. Then the LORD [jewish substitution for YHWH] will come to His temple. In the OT, LORD generally does not refer to Yahshua

N

As I pointed out in Mal 3 were you mention God it is not it is Christ

Just read the bible

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
Did you not know God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself??[2cor5]

[Ed J]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2012,20:55)

Hi T, Did you not know God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself??[2cor5]

Hi Nick,

“he that hath seen me hath seen the Father” (John 14:9)

Thomas said: “My Lord  AND  my God.” (John 20:28)

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Yes Ed,

Thomas said those words to Jesus, yet you act dumbfounded to learn that Jesus is a god. You say the Bible doesn't teach it.

[terraricca]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2012,03:55)

Hi T, Did you not know God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself??[2cor5]

N

2Co 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.
2Co 5:12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart

2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
2Co 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

and yes ,this is what happen and he uses people with a PURE HEART to be successful in becoming reconcile with him
and so escape the fire but have been purified by that fire

[Author]

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