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Quote (RokkaMan @ May 13 2010,16:19) Quote (david @ May 13 2010,16:13) Quote Genesis 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
How can he be called the spirit of God and not be God?
Hi Rokkaman.
LUKE 11:20
But if it is by means of God’s finger I expel the demons,Parallel account:
MAT 11:28
But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demonsGod's spirit is his Finger, or his Arm, his strength and means to accomplish his will. In this parallel account, I think that is made plain. The account just says the spirit of God moved along the ground.
I can say that I slide my finger across the table. It doesn't mean I am sliding across the table, but rather that my finger is.
Can i not also say for myself that, if I yell at you, you hear my voice?In parallel, if I yell at you, you hear my pain?
You cannot takes God's spirit as a literal interpretation as his literal finger.
Because that would be saying my voice is equal to my pain…which we know metaphysically they are different.
You however can metophorically call it as his driving force.
thankyou.
Hi RM,
Do you trust logic more than scripture?
That path is unsafe.Quote (david @ May 13 2010,16:21) Quote You cannot takes God's spirit as a literal interpretation as his literal finger. You however can metophorically use it as his driving force.
That is what I do. I do not think God has a literal finger. But, for the sake of understanding, he inspired that to be written. We understand what a finger is and what it can do. Similarly, in the Hebrew scriptures, the spirit is spoken of as his Arm. We know what an arm can do. We understand that the arm is not the person, but is is the arm “of” the person, just as it is the spirit “of” God, and not God himself.
Well God doesn't have any physical characteristics…he is a spirit…so if you want to call his spirit a spiritual finger or arm, go ahead and do so…it doesn't make a difference…eitherway it's his driving force that moves thing.We are not in disagreement, only our perceptions are clashing but we're singing the same song.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2010,16:21) Quote (RokkaMan @ May 13 2010,16:19) Quote (david @ May 13 2010,16:13) Quote Genesis 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
How can he be called the spirit of God and not be God?
Hi Rokkaman.
LUKE 11:20
But if it is by means of God’s finger I expel the demons,Parallel account:
MAT 11:28
But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demonsGod's spirit is his Finger, or his Arm, his strength and means to accomplish his will. In this parallel account, I think that is made plain. The account just says the spirit of God moved along the ground.
I can say that I slide my finger across the table. It doesn't mean I am sliding across the table, but rather that my finger is.
Can i not also say for myself that, if I yell at you, you hear my voice?In parallel, if I yell at you, you hear my pain?
You cannot takes God's spirit as a literal interpretation as his literal finger.
Because that would be saying my voice is equal to my pain…which we know metaphysically they are different.
You however can metophorically call it as his driving force.
thankyou.
Hi RM,
Do you trust logic more than scripture?
That path is unsafe.
Ok i see you're redundancy phase has ended, and you've moved on to your predictable condemning phase because aparently God ahs exaulted you to a status of perfect understanding of scripture.I'll answer you anyway.
My logic is based on scripture. So my path is safe to tread.
And so far Nick, you yourself have not used scripture to refute my scripture base logic.
I'd be glad to discuss anything you can dig up that says i'm wrong.
Quote Hi David,
I think im going to have answer your response in two fashions because your right we did go off in two different tangents.
1. The Priority is to prove if that one scripture proves if The early Apostles and church Fathers believed in the Trinity
2. If the Holy Spirit really is part of an co-equal entity, a Trinity.Hi SimplyForgiven,
WJ, response took a long time. Your post is long. It's getting late. I posted this here as a reminder to respond to you, since I don't want to forget about your post on page 4.But really, regarding what you say about, I didn't set out to prove either thing above. They both are separate topics and have their own threads I'm sure.
I wanted to look at Matthew 28:19 specifically and ask: What does this prove? Do other similar scriptures that mention three prove anything? Do other scriptures that repeatedly mention 2 prove anything? I know I've gone off on tangents and these ideas are all related, but they've all been covered. I just get frustrated when someone who has the ability to count to 3, gets all excited about it. I can count to 3 in Manderin, but I don't go telling you that. OK, I just did. Anywho, it's getting late…
Quote Well God doesn't have any physical characteristics…he is a spirit…so if you want to call his spirit a spiritual finger or arm, go ahead and do so…it doesn't make a difference…eitherway it's his driving force that moves thing. We are not in disagreement, only our perceptions are clashing but we're singing the same song.
Hi Rokka. Just to be clear, I don't go around calling his spirit his finger. I'm showing that a Bible writer did that. And that this tells us something about God's spirit. Yes, it's his driving force that moves things. Most people on here would disagree with you on that. I do not.
Quote (RokkaMan @ May 13 2010,16:26) And so far Nick, you yourself have not used scripture to refute my scripture base logic. I'd be glad to discuss anything you can dig up that says i'm wrong.
Hi RM,
Really?
Did you miss them?Men have followed the logic of men into the pit for 2000 years but you can take a different and safer path.
Seek first the kingdom[Mt6]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2010,16:38) Quote (RokkaMan @ May 13 2010,16:26) And so far Nick, you yourself have not used scripture to refute my scripture base logic. I'd be glad to discuss anything you can dig up that says i'm wrong.
Hi RM,
Really?
Did you miss them?Men have followed the logic of men into the pit for 2000 years but you can take a different and safer path.
Seek first the kingdom[Mt6]
Yes I missed them and I still don't see them…
I understand men have followed logic in the pit…but I like to follow truth. Truth that comes from scripture…As many times as Jesus alluded he isn't God in the bible, is nearly as much as he alluded he was God.
My logic based on scripture is in agreement with what scripture says about him…
He is fully man yet (fully god) the fullness of God's deity dwells within him and that all things are under him…which means he can do everything God can do.
I don't see anyone being given the power to create…and I thought only God can forgive sins? yet we see Jesus petitioning for us and forgiving our sins? O wow, that's too farfetch'd to believe. (sarcasm)
Hi RM
Scripture IS truth.
It is a different idea from yours.
God was IN HIM[2cor5] but you think he was already God as well??Try Acts 10.38
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2010,16:53) Hi RM
Scripture IS truth.
It is a different idea from yours.
God was IN HIM[2cor5] but you think he was already God as well??Try Acts 10.38
You say scripture is different from my ideas but I have not said anything that isn't scriptural.Actually i'm still waiting on your scriptural references.
and Yes he was already God. Like scripture says
He was fully man and fully God. Born of The spirit of God and the Flesh of Mary.
HI,
So not the Son of God?
He disagrees.We too can be reborn of the Spirit of God but do not become God .
Im trying to Grasp the small debate between Nick Hassan and Rokkaman.
And than i realize its not a debate… hmph.
All nick is doing is egging on someone else, picking a lil here, and a lil there with questions without really taking
part of the discussion but just…. picking…Brother, If you are to question, isnt fair to express ideas for us to question as well?
What is your position? And when using scripture, how do you connect it to the point?
are you argueing that there is not Trinity? or are you arugeing that there is?
Are you saying that your right and that no one else can be right?
is it your logic? how do you know? who told you? who taught you?
How did you reach these conclusions?
Why must we believe you?
What reference or evidence do you have to support your claims?
What is logic to you?
Who is God for you?and if you igrnore all my questions above, pls answer this one
Is God right or are You Right? Is your Ideas exactly alligened with God's?
is it possible that God knows more than you?
Do you agree that your imperfect? do you agree that God is perfect?
Are your beliefs compeletly in every way with God's perfect will?
Is God the only one who knows the complete truth, as in God knows what is smaller than an atom, and bigger than the universe.
God knows what matter is, and whats beyond the Universe. God knows abuot heavnen and hell, and about the past, present and Future.
With that said, Who knows more you or God?And finaly
If all of that were true, is it possible for you to be wrong? not that you are, but is it possible?
Do you believe in God? Do you believe he is the Truth?
Is it possible to humble ourselves enough to consider others people opinion as we search for Gods voice in what they say or
claim.are you willing to consider that?
Im not asking for you to denounce yoru faith. im asking you if your willing to humble yourself.
I believe to profess to have the whole truth is a dangerous position, but to profess that you know of him who is Truth
is a much safer and humble position of faith, trust, and love.but the greatest of these is Love.
am i wrong?
with much love brother
examine yourself, as i to will examine myself together in meekness before God holy presence and ask for the Truth.And if anything what i have said or questioned you about doesnt matter to you than know taht i Love you very much
and i know that my Father in heaven loves you very much!Be blessed,
i finally understand what you mean by SF!! LOL
man that was a slow moment bro.What does God tell you?
Quote Hi SF,
How is truth found?
How is it proven?Quote (RokkaMan @ May 13 2010,01:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2010,16:53) Hi RM
Scripture IS truth.
It is a different idea from yours.
God was IN HIM[2cor5] but you think he was already God as well??Try Acts 10.38
You say scripture is different from my ideas but I have not said anything that isn't scriptural.Actually i'm still waiting on your scriptural references.
and Yes he was already God. Like scripture says
He was fully man and fully God. Born of The spirit of God and the Flesh of Mary.
Hi Rokkaman,
It is good to see you here. Nick just sees the Son of God as the offspring of David and totally ignores the root of David existence. He is 100% root and 100% offspring…go figure that one out
Blessings,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ May 13 2010,18:27) Quote (RokkaMan @ May 13 2010,01:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 13 2010,16:53) Hi RM
Scripture IS truth.
It is a different idea from yours.
God was IN HIM[2cor5] but you think he was already God as well??Try Acts 10.38
You say scripture is different from my ideas but I have not said anything that isn't scriptural.Actually i'm still waiting on your scriptural references.
and Yes he was already God. Like scripture says
He was fully man and fully God. Born of The spirit of God and the Flesh of Mary.
Hi Rokkaman,
It is good to see you here. Nick just sees the Son of God as the offspring of David and totally ignores the root of David existence. He is 100% root and 100% offspring…go figure that one out Blessings,
Kathi
If Jesus Christ was not God in flesh, his death meant nothing.Quote How can the Holy Spirit give orders if its an impersonal things, its like a glass of water trying me to drink it. If something speaks under its own authority it [is] because it exists as a personal being, with a personality. Use Psycho analysis to study the Holy Spirit and you can see all the charateristics and attributes match those of Jesus and of the Father. –Dennison (SF)
Yes, the Characteristics of the holy spirit do match the Father (and the Son, who said he imitated the Father.)
Why do you think that is? I think it is because God's holy spirit, his “finger” or “arm” is is means of accomplishing his will. So of course it would match His characteristics.
Quote How can the Holy Spirit give orders if its an impersonal things, its like a glass of water trying me to drink it. Before, WJ stated that the holy spirit had to be a person because it was listed with other persons, (God and His Son.)
But the truth is, it is often listed with qualities and other impersonal things.
You can be filled with it, along with such qualities as wisdom and faith or joy and at 2 Corinthians 6:6, we see that holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities.2 CORINTHIANS 6:6
“by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy,”
ACTS 13:52
“And the disciples continued to be filled with joy and holy spirit.” (Compare Rom 14:17)
ACTS 6:3
“So, brothers, search out for yourselves seven certified men from among YOU, full of spirit and wisdom, that we may appoint them over this necessary business;”
ACTS 6:5
“And the thing spoken was pleasing to the whole multitude, and they selected Stephen, a man full of faith and holy spirit. . . ”
1 THESSALONIANS 1:5
“because the good news we preach did not turn up among YOU with speech alone but also with power and with holy spirit and strong conviction, just as YOU know what sort of men we became to YOU for YOUR sakes;”
ACTS 11:24
“for he was a good man and full of holy spirit and of faith. . . ..”
ACTS 10:38
“namely, Jesus who was from Naźa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land . . . “
MATTHEW 3:11
“I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire.” (Compare Luke 3:16, Mark 1:8)(WJ, I'm curious also what you think of this, being baptized with holy spirit and fire, and all the verses above.)
Dennison, I do not think the holy spirit is a person. Above it is listed with many impersonal things. (If WJ gives proof that the holy spirit is a person because it is listed with God and Jesus, then are my examples also proof of the opposite?)
Back to your question:
Quote How can the Holy Spirit give orders if its an impersonal things, its like a glass of water trying me to drink it. Well let me ask you: How can the holy spirit bear witness if it's an impersonal thing? Also, how can blood and water bear witness if they are impersonal things? “For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.”
Let me ask: How can impersonal things be in “agreement”? Is it personification, or are “the blood” and “the water” also persons? What do you think?If, as WJ says, listing the holy spirit with persons is proof of personality, then too, lumping the holy spirit in with these impersonal things indicates a lack of personality, does it not? Is that not consistent?
THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.
It is referred to as a “gift.” (Acts 2:33; 10:38,45; 1 Timothy 4:14).
The spirit of God is said to be divisible and able to be distributed. (Num. 11:17-25)
The holy spirit can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.”
It can be “upon” him and envelop him. (Acts 2:4; 7:55; Eph 5:18; Luke 2:25-27; Exodus 31:3; Judges 3:10; 6:34)
Can a human get filled with another person?
Holy spirit was ‘given,’ ‘poured out upon,’ and ‘distributed.’ (Luke 11:13; Acts 10:45; Hebrews 2:4)
It can be quenched. (1 Thessalonians 5:19)
People can drink of it. (John 7:37-39; 1 Cor 12:13)
The holy spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6)
It is also called “the Holy Spirit of promise,” “the guarantee of our inheritance” and “the spirit of wisdom and revelation . . .” (Ephesians 1:13-14, 17).
Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. (Numbers 11:17, 25)
The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats. (Judges 14:6; 1 Samuel 10:6)
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38)
Far from teaching equality with Jehovah, the Scriptures show that the holy spirit is not even a person. Thus John the Baptist stated that Jesus would baptize “with holy spirit and with fire,” even as he was baptizing with water.
To baptize means to immerse, to dip, to submerge. A person can baptize others with water, dipping them into it, as John did, and a person can baptize others with fire by immersing them in flames or causing their destruction; but how can one person baptize others with another person?
Since neither water nor fire is personal, is it not reasonable to conclude that the holy spirit is also not a person?Peter stated that God poured out ‘some of his spirit’ upon all kinds of flesh. Can we imagine some of a person being poured out on thousands of other persons, as was the case at Pentecost after Peter had preached to the Jews?—Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 38, 41
Mark 1:10 shows that the holy spirit came down upon Jesus “like a dove,” not in a human form. The holy spirit was not some person coming upon Jesus.
If it is a person, why did it not appear as a person?That power from God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and resurrect the dead. As Luke 5:17 says in the Diaglott: “The Mighty Power of the Lord [God] was on him [Jesus] to cure.” Later, at Pentecost, the apostles also were given the power from God to heal the sick and raise the dead. Did that make them part of some “godhead”? No, they were simply given power from God, through Christ, to do what humans ordinarily could not do.
These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person. None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.
I want you to read the following paragraph closely:
The fact that the Bible does not explicitly mention, explain or teach a trinity is in itself strong proof that the trinity teaching is false. And this is also borne out by what the Bible teaches regarding the holy spirit.
God’s Word will help us and guide us to a correct understanding of the holy spirit. The correct identification of the holy spirit must fit ALL the scriptures that refer to that spirit. For
example, one cannot just look at the fact that personal attributes are applied to the holy spirit and conclude that this proves the holy spirit is a person, for personal attributes are definitely applied to very impersonal things in the Bible by means of personification. Just above, we spoke of the Bible as “teaching,” “explaining,” ‘helping’ and ‘guiding.’ Yet we all understand the use of personification and that the Bible isn’t a person, because we can also speak of the Bible in ways that demonstrate it clearly is not a person. The point of this paragraph is that we must therefore find a belief that fits ALL the scriptures.Other than among trinitarians, personification is a universally understood use of language.
In the Bible the holy spirit is personified, but this is not unusual in the Bible.
The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings.” (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12)
Paul speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing.’ (Ro 7:8-11) Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.
Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT)
Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35, where it is depicted as having both “works” and “children.”
There is a host of other scriptures giving “personalities” to hands, ears, trees, hills, mountains, the earth, heaven, and many other inanimate things. (1 Cor 12:15,16; Ps 96,11,12; Is 55:12)
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. All three are said to BE witnesses. But water and blood are obviously not persons, and neither is the holy spirit a person.
IN WHAT SENSE DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAK?
While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Mark 13:11; Luke 12: 12; Acts 1:16; Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Acts 13:2,9,10; Matt. 10:19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with 21:10, 11.)
So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person. It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Personification is actually a vivid way in which the Scriptures sometimes express matters.
While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)Again, look at the way we speak all the time:
The Bible will HELP us to figure this out. It will TELL us the truth and GUIDE us to the right conclusion. The Bible actually INVITES us to learn from it. And if we do, it will CONVINCE you that you are wrong. What does it TEACH? What does it SAY? What does it REVEAL? What KNOWLEDGE does it contain about God's holy spirit?
Instead of just following the traditions of men, we should let the Bible itself EXPLAIN.If you only looked at the above and ignored other evidence, you could make a case based on the above that the Bible is a person.
I just want us to consider ALL the evidence. This post is getting long. Back to your post….
Quote We are argueing WJ's response if the Early Apostles and church fathers believed this. I would agree that wouldnt prove that they believed it, but the Scripture does speak of Three in one. –dennison
What I am arguing is against this, which many have said:
“. . . Matthew 28:19 is unambiguous evidence that the early Apostles and Church Fathers believed in a Trinity.”–WJ
I don't believe you can use this scripture as any sort of unambiguous evidence or even strong evidence, or really any proof of the trinity. It mentions 3, but does not state anything that would indicate a trinity other than the fact that 3 are mentioned.
As I've pointed out, we could find trinities all over the place if that were what constituted proof.Quote If your arguement is if the Apostles believed in this? your right it doesnt prove that they did. But if your saying that the mandate of Jesus Christ doesnt prove anything,…. well i think we need to double check that one. –Dennison.
Dennison, please stop listening to WJ's repeated propaganda. He creates false arguments and then repeats them about 10 times per post until everyone thinks the other persons argument (which WJ fabricated) is false.
WJ repeatedly makes it seem like I think that christ's words are meaningless. That is what he repeatedly accused me of. What I ACTUALLY said was that Christ's words there do not in any way prove “a trinity.” (I can't believe WJ's tactics work so fast.)Again, my argument isn't so much what the apostles believed, as it is that Matthew 28:19 does not give “unambigous evidence” for the trinity.
Quote and its not Gods finger, He is there for us always.. its like God always there for us in every moment, in every thought, and choice. If anything the Holy Spirit is a gentleman, Hi Dennison.
While the holy spirit is unequivocally referred to as God's finger, it is never referred to as a gentleman, to the best of my knowledge. Of course it is not literally God's finger. But this comparison that is used in the Bible helps us to understand what it is.
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