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Mikeboll said:
Quote YHWH does NOT TRANSLATE into lord. Translators frequently SUBSTITUTE the word lord for the divine name of God, which is YHWH. TO ALL:
The name “YHWH” indeed translates into “kurios” ALWAYS! Let Mike give his credentials or at least offer some proof for his outrageous assertion.
Mike:
Quote YHWH means basically “I will be what I will be”. Is that what lord means?
James Strong in whom Mike trusts says that YHWH may also be equivalent to “Adonay” or “Lord” (See Strong's# 3068 & 3069).Okay, so I have presented some evidence from scholarship while Mike just expects you to take his word for it.
btw, David erroneously claims that later versions of the Septuagint say “kurios” while the original Septuagint did not. Let David produce the original Septuagint.
And let both Mike and David explain why the author to the Hebrews quotes Psalm 102:25-27 from the Septuagint in Hebrews 1:10. The original Hebrew says “YHWH” but the Septuagint says “Kurios” and the apostle quoted the Septuagint.
And let's not forget that in Deuteronomy 6:16 they were told not to tempt YHWH as they did in Massah. According to Paul it was Christ they tempted (1 Corinthians 10:1-9).
These facts utterly destroy Mike and David!
So I have given James Strong and the apostle to the Hebrews who quoted the Septuagint. Mikeboll has given nothing by way of proof for his assertion that YHWH does not translate as “kurios.” Mike has given zilch, nada, nothing. All he has given is his NOVICE opinion.
the Roo
Quote (david @ May 26 2010,17:26) SF, I was actually speaking about Kangaroo Jack. To me, it is obvious that angels are called “sons of God” in several places. Jack seemed unaware of this.
I was actually agreeing with you. Sorry that I didn't make that more clear and sorry for the misunderstanding. I can see how vague I was.david
Then give the scripture which says that angels are sons of God. Or did I miss something?the Roo
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,17:04) So Jesus is a true Theos and the Father is not the ONLY true Theos. Correct? 
Yep, another one of those “title confusion tricks”. THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD BUT THERE ARE OTHER TRUE GODS!
Yet YHWH says…
YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, AND AFTER ME THERE CONTINUED TO BE NONE. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.” Isa 43:10 NWT
Even his own Bible contradicts him!
WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,17:32) Mikeboll said: Quote YHWH does NOT TRANSLATE into lord. Translators frequently SUBSTITUTE the word lord for the divine name of God, which is YHWH. TO ALL:
The name “YHWH” indeed translates into “kurios”. ALWAYS! Let Mike give his credentials or at least offer some proof for his outrageous assertion.
Mike:
Quote YHWH means basically “I will be what I will be”. Is that what lord means?
James Strong in whom Mike trusts says that YHWH may also be equivalent to “Adonay” or “Lord” (See Strong's# 3068 & 3069).Okay, so I have presented some evidence from scholarship while Mike just expects you to take his word for it.
btw, David erroneously claims that later versions of the Septuagint say “kurios” while the original Septuagint did not. Let David produce the original Septuagint.
And let both Mike and David explain why the author to the Hebrews quotes Psalm 102:25-27 from the Septuagint in Hebrews 1:10. The original Hebrew says “YHWH” but the Septuagint says “Kurios” and the apostle quoted the Septuagint.
These facts utterly destroy Mike and David!
So I have given James Strong and the apostle to the Hebrews who quoted the Septuagint. Mikeboll has given nothing by way of proof for his assertion that YHWH does not translate as “kurios.” Mike has given zilch, nada, nothing. All he has given is his NOVICE opinion.
the Roo
JackExactly! Jesus nor the Apostles spoke the name of the Father either!
I asked David why in all of the NT letters the name YHWH is not mentioned in the Salutations, of course he has no answer because they believe the unknown name YHWH which they say is Jehovah was tampered with. Its laughable.
WJ
Jack, why do you keep asking for verses showing angels being called Sons of God.
You have already been shown 'Job 1' and 'Job 2' when the Sons of God came to council with God. And other verses.
What are you after? Do you thinj you can erase Scriptures by repeated asking the same question. No, you will just keep getting the same answer.
Ok, what is it about Job 1 & 2 and Psalm 82 that you want to deny, please…?
Quote (JustAskin @ May 27 2010,09:53) Jack, why do you keep asking for verses showing angels being called Sons of God. You have already been shown 'Job 1' and 'Job 2' when the Sons of God came to council with God. And other verses.
What are you after? Do you thinj you can erase Scriptures by repeated asking the same question. No, you will just keep getting the same answer.
Ok, what is it about Job 1 & 2 and Psalm 82 that you want to deny, please…?
JA,Did you read my reply to the verses in Job? The Hebrew “ben elohim” may also be translated simply as “mighty ones”. Hebrews 1 is CLEAR that God NEVER called an angel His son.
“To which of the angels did He ever say, “You are my son' “?
Therefore, the Hebrew “ben elohim” when referring to angels simply means “mighty ones”.
the Roo
Jack,
Which part of Job 1 & 2 and Psalm 82 causes you to deny the term 'Sons of God'? Sons of the most high?Mighty ones, yes, for sure, that is the same as 'gods'… The Sons of God are gods!
I keep telling you that you speak truth without knowing it.
Quote (JustAskin @ May 27 2010,10:19) Jack,
Which part of Job 1 & 2 and Psalm 82 causes you to deny the term 'Sons of God'? Sons of the most high?Mighty ones, yes, for sure, that is the same as 'gods'… The Sons of God are gods!
I keep telling you that you speak truth without knowing it.
JA,Do you even bother to read my posts? Jesus applied Psalm 82 to the Jews who rejected Him (John 10). And I have already explained the scriptures in Job. For instance, 38:7 would better be translated, “when the mighty ones shouted for joy”.
Explain Hebrews 1:6,
And to which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my son' “?
This is saying that God had NEVER called an angel “son”.
EXPLAIN!
the Roo
WJ,
Can I ask you: When you read something like 1 Thessalonians 4:8, '…God, who has given us His Holy Spirit'.
How do you reconcile that with the Trinity?
God gives His Holy Spirit.
God gave His Son…to save mankind.
God gives the Father? Is there such a verse? Why not?
Co-Equality? why the Holy Spirit, and the Son, but not the Father?
Scriptures says 'God the Father' but never 'God the Holy Spirit' nor 'God the Son',…why?
God, the Father, gave His Holy Spirit.
God the Father gave His Son.Please help me understand, or not!
Kangaroo wrote:[/quote]
Hi Roo,I'm worried about you, man. You're losing it. David, JA and Dennison all showed you where angels are called the “sons of God”. You come up with this as a denial to JA:
Quote The Hebrew “ben elohim” may also be translated simply as “mighty ones”. Hebrews 1 is CLEAR that God NEVER called an angel His son. “To which of the angels did He ever say, “You are my son' “?
Therefore, the Hebrew “ben elohim” when referring to angels simply means “mighty ones”.
Where to start? The Hebrew word “ben” means:
Ben TWOT – 254
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
bane Noun MasculineDefinition
son, grandson, child, member of a group
son, male child
grandson
children (pl. – male and female)
youth, young men (pl.)
young (of animals)
sons (as characterisation, i.e. sons of injustice [for un- righteous men] or sons of God [for angels]
people (of a nation) (pl.)
of lifeless things, i.e. sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
a member of a guild, order, classhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/ben.html
So “ben” means “son” or “sons”. And according to OBST, it's used for “sons of God [for angels]”. And we all know by now that “elohim” means “three persons in a godhead”. So it literally means “sons [of] God”. I am wondering where you get the info that it is better translated “mighty ones” when the actual Hebrew words mean “sons [of] God”?
And why don't you add the rest of Heb 1:5? The part that sets Jesus as Son apart from the other sons of God. The part that says, “Today I have begotten you”.
Then you said to me (in a wierd third person sort of way since I can't be the second person anymore because you've excommunicated me [somewhat] for being a heretic) :
Quote The name “YHWH” indeed translates into “kurios” ALWAYS! Let Mike give his credentials or at least offer some proof for his outrageous assertion. Do I need credentials for something so simple? David quoted how a couple of Bibles render (not translate) the tetrgammaton. This is from the Revised Standard Version's foreword. It says that while the original American Standard Version rendered the tetragrammaton as “Jehovah”, the RSV uses the word “LORD” in all capital letters for two reasons:
1.“…the word ‘Jehovah’ does not accurately represent any form of the name ever used in Hebrew.”
2.“…the use of any proper name for the one and only God, as though there were other gods from whom He had to be distinguished, was discontinued in Judaism before the Christian era and is entirely inappropriate for the universal faith of the Christian Church.”
Can you see the difference between YHWH meaning lord and being substituted with the word lord?
And I really want to second two of David's points.
1. The phrase “Lord YHWH” is used in the Bible about 320 times. Is the definition for that phrase “Lord Lord”?
2. Please Keith or Paul, help your fellow trinitarian understand this!
Quote
James Strong in whom Mike trusts says that YHWH may also be equivalent to “Adonay” or “Lord” (See Strong's# 3068 & 3069).MAY ALSO. Let me try to walk you through this. If the original Hebrew says “I love you YHWH”, but the translators substitute the word “Lord” for “YHWH”, then the word “Lord” in this sentence may also be equivalent to “YHWH”. Also if the original Hebrew says “Adonay is the God of gods”, we can assume that in this sentence the adonay referred to is YHWH. So in this instance, Adonay is equivalent to JHWH because that is to whom the “adonay” refers without doubt.
This is where it gets too tricky for 3 year olds and Roo:
Equivalent in Strong's sentence does NOT imply that the definition or translation of YHWH is the same as Lord. YHWH still means “I will be what I will be” and Lord still means “master”.
In other words, just because someone called King David “lord” it does NOT mean that he is YHWH. The words are NOT interchangeable. They do NOT mean the same thing. One can SUBSTITUTE the word YHWH with the word “lord”, but it doesn't mean that every time you see the word “lord”, it refers to YHWH. Do you understand? Or do you still need to see credentials? Google JHWH and you can see all the credentials you need.
You said:
Quote btw, David erroneously claims that later versions of the Septuagint say “kurios” while the original Septuagint did not. Let David produce the original Septuagint. I'm looking at photocopies of fragments of the oldest LXX ever found. In 12 different photos, mixed in with the Greek words, there is the tetragrammaton in archaic Hebrew letters.
I will summarize what it says here in the foreword of the NWT Greek Interlinear:
It was long thought that the basis for the failure of the divine name in our extant MSS was the absence of the name in the LXX. This thought was based on MSS of the LXX of the 4th and 5th centuries A.D. (the Vatican 1209, the Sinaitic, the Alexandrine, and the Ambrosianus).
This popular theory has now been flatly disproved by the recently found remains of a papyrus roll of LXX. This contains the second half of the book of Deuteronomy. Not one of these fragments shows an example of kurios or theos used instead of the divine name, but in each instance the tetragrammaton is written in Aramaic characters.
Authorities fix the date for this papyrus at the 2nd or 1st century B.C.
The tetragrammaton persisted in copies of the LXX for centuries after Christ and his apostles. About 128 A.D., Aquila's Greek version had the tetragrammaton in archaic Hebrew letters. About A.D. 245 Origen produced his famous Hexapla… In the second column of the Hexapla, in the transliteration into Greek, the tetragammaton was written in Hebrew characters…
A lot of this is also in the Catholic Encyclopedia. If you want to know more, let me know.
As far as the scriptures you mention; we could have a scripture that actually says, “The Lord Jesus Christ is in fact YHWH”. But if the very next scripture says the Lord Jesus Christ rules”, the word “Lord” still does not mean YHWH. It means “master”. The name YHWH NEVER TRANSLATES INTO LORD, although Lord is many times SUBSTITUTED for it.
Do you get it? Or is this an exercise in futility for me?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,09:40) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,17:04) So Jesus is a true Theos and the Father is not the ONLY true Theos. Correct? Yep, another one of those “title confusion tricks”. THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD BUT THERE ARE OTHER TRUE GODS!
Yet YHWH says…
YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, AND AFTER ME THERE CONTINUED TO BE NONE. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.” Isa 43:10 NWT
Even his own Bible contradicts him!
WJ
Hi WJ,I know you cannot be that daft. Is Satan “a god” meaning “mighty one” or not? Are the other angels? Is Jesus?
Of course they are. The scriptures say so. Here's the clincher: are any of these the Father? No. There is only one true God Almighty Father in heaven. I know you get this, but you must follow your man-made doctrine over a simple understanding of scripture.
Paul clearly said “there are many gods”.
You and Roo (and a dog named Boo…sorry – old Lobo song)
You and Jack seem to think that if you close your eyes and hope with all your might that Satan will not exist. I got news for ya – he does. And he is the god of this age. And he is truly a god (mighty one), therefore a true god.
Since you guys insist on ignoring David's great points, I'll keep seconding them. David asks if the only kind of gods there are is God Almighty and false gods. If so, when God said of men “you are gods”, He was either lying, or He didn't know the difference between true gods and false gods. He didn't say “you are false gods”, did He? Then it stands to reason that He knew them to be true gods (mighty ones).
By your reasoning, Yoda was a mighty warrior, but Darth Vader wasn't because he was a “bad guy”. Face it, they were both mighty warriors.
You can't take away everything the scriptures say about Satan just because you don't like him.
I don't like him either, but I'm smart enough to ask God to keep him and his away from me because I know I am no match for a god.
Do you understand this very simple truth? “No God formed” does not mean there are no other “mighty ones”, just no other “Almighty ones”. Get it?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2010,15:15) Hi MB,
Futility
Hi Nick,Where ya been for the last couple days. I missed you.
And I hope not, but you are probably right.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,09:48) Jack Exactly! Jesus nor the Apostles spoke the name of the Father either!
You were there, WJ? There is proof that YHWH was in early LXX MSS. How do you know for sure they didn't actually say “Yahweh” and it was later sustituted with “Lord” or “God”?peace and love,
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 27 2010,09:09) KJ, First of all in Hebrew 1 its talking about a Son not sons.
How can it translate to mighty ones? this is a conclusion show me the claim? where are you getting this from?
Bene- means son in Hebrew
Elohim- is what? Godthis is self explanatory, actually this is so easy that i dont even know why im debating this point.
In referense all i said that in those verses i provided, that the sons of God mentioned there are angels.
If you disagree and if im wrong,
Pls lets go back to Job,
Show me why im wrong,
exactly, lets go verse by verse.and i agree that God never called his angels his “SON” but his “sons” in plural. What would be so wrong with that, even we are his SONS yet not SON.
This is the same thing…
and the part of “you are my son” is in referesne to when Jesus was being baptized. lets qoute the whole scripture. Quote
5: For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?Whats the big deal to understand that God mentioned that the angels were sons of God? yet we are also sons of God? but we are not his SON. that hebrews give referense too.
We are children of light, yet angels are called the stars also?
i mean get the picture,it really isnt that big of a deal KJ,
again if im wrong, lets go back to Job, and go verse by verse to understand first who are the sons of God mentioned in Job and why was Satan hanging around with them?
Much Love KJ,
really bro, i dont see the big deal.
KJ,You totally ignored my post.
And ignored alot of my questions and my statements.
There for i can only include that you agree.And if you respond with a conclusion again without a Claim, than im going go assume that your slowley transforming into a Nick. Your becoming one of the “Sons of Nick.” Nick already has one for sure follower that doesnt make sense, i hope that your not going to fall in to the same way (not making sense family), that i have already started it ignore.
1.)First of all you didnt qoute the whole scripture of Hebrews 1:5 so its already safe to assume that you probably over read the rest of it.
2.)What is your evidence to back up your conclusion that leads you to “believe” that the term Sons of God means mighty one. Can you show me in hebrew how this could happen?
3.) can you explain what Bene- means in Hebrews and “Elohim”.
Does Ben mean mighty? does Elohim mean One?
wouldnt a better translation would be using “El” or “Gibor”4) is there a differsen between sons of God and the Son of God. is a Son the same as Sons.
5) I dont understand your logic behind this…So who went up to the presense of God?
I await your response,
Much love,
WJ: Where art thou? what say you!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2010,23:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,09:40) Kangaroo wrote:So Jesus is a true Theos and the Father is not the ONLY true Theos. Correct?
Yep, another one of those “title confusion tricks”. THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD BUT THERE ARE OTHER TRUE GODS!
Yet YHWH says…
YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, AND AFTER ME THERE CONTINUED TO BE NONE. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.” Isa 43:10 NWT
Even his own Bible contradicts him!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2010,23:39) Hi WJ, I know you cannot be that daft. Is Satan “a god” meaning “mighty one” or not? Are the other angels?
MikeIs satan mighty to you? Is he “a god” to you? Then he must be a false god one of those so-called gods that men serve and not the true god.
Paul also said “there is no theos (God) but one” and all others are so-called gods. 1 Cor 8:4, 5
We have been over this Mike.
Why do you insist on contradicting YHWHs words that there were no gods formed?
Instead you make the word of God of none effect again Mike.
These words are clear because not only he says there is no God formed before him but also after him. So clearly he is not speaking of himself but of other so-called gods that men form and not YHWH.
“BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, AND AFTER ME THERE CONTINUED TO BE NONE“
Crystal clear!
Stop with all your retoric and please present a scripture where a servant of YHWH or Jesus called a so-called God, their God other than YHWH or Jesus! Its not there Mike as much as you want it to be. You have to believe in Polytheism to hold on to your pagan belief that the Apostles taught there were other gods so that you can put Jesus in the same class. Poytheisim, thats what it is!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2010,23:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,09:48) Jack Exactly! Jesus nor the Apostles spoke the name of the Father either!
You were there, WJ? There is proof that YHWH was in early LXX MSS. How do you know for sure they didn't actually say “Yahweh” and it was later sustituted with “Lord” or “God”?peace and love,
mike
MikeWhat difference does it make now? YHWH is not a name that we know. You and the JWs are straining at a gnat.
The Apostles never mentioned “YHWH” in their Salutations.
I wonder why? Probably because the LXX didn't have it and that is what they had access to!
But of course Mike again it is corruption of the Text!
Why don't you guys write your own Bible.
Oh thats right you did, its called the NWT which stands for No Worthy Translators!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2010,15:39) Hi WJ, I know you cannot be that daft. Is Satan “a god” meaning “mighty one” or not? Are the other angels? Is Jesus?
Of course they are. The scriptures say so. Here's the clincher: are any of these the Father? No. There is only one true God Almighty Father in heaven. I know you get this, but you must follow your man-made doctrine over a simple understanding of scripture.
Paul clearly said “there are many gods”.
You and Roo (and a dog named Boo…sorry – old Lobo song)
You and Jack seem to think that if you close your eyes and hope with all your might that Satan will not exist. I got news for ya – he does. And he is the god of this age. And he is truly a god (mighty one), therefore a true god.
Since you guys insist on ignoring David's great points, I'll keep seconding them. David asks if the only kind of gods there are is God Almighty and false gods. If so, when God said of men “you are gods”, He was either lying, or He didn't know the difference between true gods and false gods. He didn't say “you are false gods”, did He? Then it stands to reason that He knew them to be true gods (mighty ones).
By your reasoning, Yoda was a mighty warrior, but Darth Vader wasn't because he was a “bad guy”. Face it, they were both mighty warriors.
You can't take away everything the scriptures say about Satan just because you don't like him.
I don't like him either, but I'm smart enough to ask God to keep him and his away from me because I know I am no match for a god.
Do you understand this very simple truth? “No God formed” does not mean there are no other “mighty ones”, just no other “Almighty ones”. Get it?
peace and love,
mike
Satan is a created thing. Yeshua is the CREATOR of “all things” (John 1:3, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2). That should give you a clue Mike. Clearly these two are not equivalent beings….Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:18) Oh thats right you did, its called the NWT which stands for No Worthy Translators!
Nice acronym. And so apt….
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