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WorshippingJesus said to Mike:
Quote Your logic says a Police officer who is given the authority and power to execute the law really doesn’t have any authority or power. Try resisting arrest one time or breaking the law and see what kind of authority or power the Officer has.
Exactly! Months back I gave a similar illustration to JA and he ignored it. A deputy Sheriff is the Sheriff on the streets. Within the Sheriff's Department there may be a hierarchy of authority. But that is strictly an internal matter and does not concern the common citizen. On the streets the deputy is the Sheriff's representative and has the same authority as the Sheriff Himself. And the motorist who is pulled over by the deputy had better not say, “You're not the Sheriff so I don't need to obey you”.So even if Jesus were under His Father, which He is not, it does not matter. As the Father's representative Jesus would have the same authority as His Father. so called hierarchy of authority does not concern us. But Jesus is no longer under His Father because He is the fully investitured Son and therefore has His authority in His own right. So there is no wiggle room for Mike. None whatsoever!
roo
Hi KJ,
So God is in Jesus.
The Lord is the Spirit.So he is not the God that anointed him?[Acts 10.38]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2010,17:22) Hi KJ,
You certainly have been consistent in your deception.
NHInstead of making lame and empty accusations why don't you show where he is decieving!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2010,09:30) Hi KJ,
So God is in Jesus.
The Lord is the Spirit.So he is not the God that anointed him?[Acts 10.38]
If you were right Nick so what? The deputy is not the Sheriff who commissioned him. But this does not concern you for the deputy has the same authority as the Sheriff when he pulls you over for speeding.roo
Hi WJ,
No you need to find support for the verse in light of 2 Cor 13.1 before building doctrines on it.You need to explain why the apostles baptised in the name of Jesus.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2010,09:40) Hi WJ,
No you need to find support for the verse in light of 2 Cor 13.1 before building doctrines on it.You need to explain why the apostles baptised in the name of Jesus.
Nick,
Their baptizing in the name of Jesus negates Matthew 28:19 how?roo
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2010,13:47) Quote (Mayz @ May 20 2010,19:31) Jesus was in the beginning, because “The beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)”
As to who he is, I don't know as mentioned earlier, No one knows who the son is.
Hi Mayz and welcome,A lot of people get hung up on John 1:1. But you should know that the capital letters in “God” were added by translators. The Greek actually says,
in beginning the word was with the god and god was the word
Do you see that the god that the word was with is preceded by the word “the”? The other god is not. It is clear to me that the word who was god is not the same as THE god he was with. How can one being be WITH a different being while being the same exact being?
Thoughts to ponder.
peace and love,
mike
There was an in-depth debate on this subject that might be helpful.Mayz………Welcome ……….Actually, the original GREEK was written in (ALL) Capital letters and the lower case lettering started around 7OO AD.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Wow Keith,
You can't answer one simple question in our debate that I've been waiting on, but you have time to write a book here?
I said:
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2010,20:50) There is not even a hint of a trinity godhead that is made up of three separate yet equal persons in the Bible. You said:
Quote That is your opinion yet you cannot answer the questions I have presented to you to show what attributes the Father has that Jesus and the Holy Spirit does not have! I have answered you. I gave you five of them, but you played word games about the definition of “attributes” instead of answering to the major differences I listed.
1. The Father is from everlasting to everlasting.
2. The Father can do anything and speak anything he wants to.
3. The Father isn't taught by anyone.
4. The Father doesn't only speak what he hears.
5. The Father is the only true God.
6. The Father isn't “OF” God.If you are so sure that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are equal God, then don't play word games about “attribute”. I'm showing you real differences between the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Deal with them, I have many more.
You said:
Quote And where is your one plain scripture that specifically says Jesus and the Holy Spirit is not “Theos” aka God? Okay, so you can't find the scripture I asked for. Good, because there isn't one. On the other hand, I have many scriptures that say both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are “OF” God. You can't BE God and be OF God, can you?
You said:
Quote Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,21:56) One last point: You mentioned to Marty that the Holy Spirit had power and authority. Where does Scripture say that the Holy Spirit has authority over anything? But now once again you are changing your statement to “…that any time you read about THE HOLY SPIRIT HAVING ANY KIND OF AUTHORITY remember that means God's authority is being enforced THROUGH His Holy Spirit ”
I didn't know I would have to spell things out like you were a third grader every time, Keith. Now I know.
The Holy Spirit in and of itself has NO authority. The Spirit is OF God, therefore part OF God. If God's “mouth” told you to do something, the mouth itself is not a person in a godhead. The mouth in and of itself has NO authority. Like the Spirit, it can only speak “what it hears”. No, that doesn't mean the mouth has ears or is a person, WJ. It is a poetic way of saying that when God's mouth speaks, it is God speaking THROUGH His mouth.
So once again, when does the Holy Spirit in and of itself have authority over anything? NEVER. The authority comes from knowing (at least some of us) that if the Holy Spirit OF God speaks to you or shows authority, it is God Himself speaking to you or showing authority THROUGH HIS Holy Spirit.
Think man! Why doesn't your equal god member even have enough authority to speak on it's own? Your equal god can only speak what it hears. Doesn't sound like any god I want to worship. I want to worship the God that tells your third god what to say. He's obviously the one in charge.
You said:
Quote This is more of your word games Mike! This is the same kind of word games and dance you play with Jesus having “all authority and power”, Speaking of which…I'm only waiting for one yes or no answer in our debate. Does “all power” mean that God has none? Answer in the debate thread, please.
You said:
Quote but Mike says he [Christ] doesn’t reign now or have any real authority or power of his own because it was given to him by the Father! Okay, let's deal with this. Roo's been hopping around thread to thread trying to discredit me with this. Let me show you why I think this. First, we know that many times in the Bible things are spoken of as if they have already happened, even though they are only foretold. For instance, Roo claims that what was said years earlier in Psalm 2 as if it had already happened, didn't REALLY happen until Jesus was raised. Heb 10 says,
12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,
Jesus waits at the right hand of God. Can he really fully rule before his enemies are made a footstool by his God? How can he rule the ones he hasn't subdued yet? Could Nebchadnezzar say he ruled the Israelites before he actually broke down the wall and conquered them?
Do you understand this, Roo? You hop around thread to thread posting my thoughts on this like I've said the most idiotic thing imaginable when all I did was quote scripture. And now you have Keith doing the same.
Now on the flip side of Heb 10 we have this scripture,
1 Corinthians 15:25 NIV
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.Sure sounds like Christ reigns now. So one scripture says he “waits” for enemies to be lowered, and the other says he reigns until his enemies are lowered. Who does he reign over? How can he reign over enemies that he hasn't even subdued yet? It is confusing for me right now. The more I learn and am guided by God's Spirit, the more I will understand.
And was Jesus' power and authority given to him? And is he still a servant of his God? God owns everything everybody has.
You said:
Quote Your logic says a Police officer who is given the authority and power to execute the law really doesn’t have any authority or power. I never said Jesus “doesn't have any authority or power” did I? I said that Jesus has exactly the amount of power and authority his God Jehovah has given him. Just like the cop has exactly the amount that his commanding officer gives him. It does not make the cop equal to or the same being as his commanding officer, does it? No, and it doesn't even mean
the cop has an equal amount of authority, does it?Think about this, WJ. Jesus has been given power and authority to do what? His will? Or is it his God's will?
You said:
Quote So if the Holy Spirit is not a person then how do you explain this verse? ”NOW THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT”: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 1 Cor 3:17
Notice Paul is calling the Spirit, Lord! How do you explain this Mike?
I think you're reading it backwards. Are you just now finding out that both God and the raised Jesus are spirit beings?
You said:
Quote Thank you! It isn’t hard for me because I do not have to dance and jump through hoops to explain away scriptures so I can hang on to my manmade doctrines! Is the Father your only God, then?
You said:
Quote In the New Heavens and the New earth there is “ONE” throne with One River flowing from it. Will that throne be the one that God granted His servant Jesus to sit in, or the one that Jesus will grant those who overcome to sit in?
You said:
Quote there is only “One river of Life”! Look again Mike… And there is only one Mississippi River. Answer the point.
You said:
Quote There is only one Throne Mike! Jesus is sharing the throne with the Father! Then that must be the throne that those who overcome will be granted to sit in? God Almighty's throne? Who will Jesus grant to sit at the right and left of this throne? Oh, that's right, it isn't for him to grant. Those positions belong to the ones his God reserved them for.
You said:
Quote So in order to support your doctrine it has to be either the Apostles disobeyed the Lord or Jesus never spoke the words and the scriptures are corrupt? How convenient Mike? What if I said that 1 Cor 8:6 was corrupt because Paul also calls Jesus his Great God and Savour so it can’t be right in order to support my doctrine? I would be crucified for saying your proof text is corrupt wouldn’t I? You loose Mike by claiming the scriptures are corrupt or contradictory! Or it could be your choice: That the apostles magically realized that Christ was actually God, and even though their sole mission was to bring people to God (one person) through Christ ( a different person), they left out this important fact.
And 1 Cor 8:6 says, ” of our great God, and of the savior of us, Jesus Christ”.You said:
Quote At any rate even if you say that each have a “Name” then it still means that the Holy Spirit has a personal name like the Father and Jesus. I don't think it says “personal” name, does it? This thing growing outside my door has a name – flower. I don't think that means it has to have a personal name, does it?
You said:
Quote Whats the difference, Jesus has the name doesn’t he? Trinitarians by claiming Jesus “is God with us” fulfill this scripture, You're doing it again…reading things backwards. What if Moses' name meant “God is with us”? Would it simply mean that God is with us, or would it mean that Moses was the God who was with us?
You said:
Quote You cannot say that YHWH is any more his name than any of the other names I give which depict his nature as well, because the true pronunciation is lost. Your names were either titles OR a substitution of the word “Lord” in place of YHWH with a description along with it. If YHWH can't properly be pronounced, then YHWH is our righteousness also cannot be pronounced. You can't just say, “Hey, we know how to pronounce the word “Lord”, so that is now the divine name of God.”
You quoted:
Quote THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. Ex 20:3 That's funny for me because you keep telling me there were no other gods formed before or after Jehovah. Yet here we have Jehovah saying not to put any of those other gods (of which there are none) before Him. Why can't you understand what God and Paul understood? There are many “mighty ones”, but only one Almighty One.
You said:
Quote Now has YHWH changed his mind and put a created being before him by telling the creation to serve him with absolute devotion even to the death, especially when he has said you shall not serve other gods? When did God tells us to worship and serve Jesus as God?
You said:
Quote This is why the Jew does not accept Jesus as the Messiah, because his claims were that he was equal to God. Still the same today! This is a lie! When did Jesus claim to be equal to God?
You said:
Quote Your reasoning is flawed because that is the reason that God came in the flesh is so that man could approach him. God made himself visible by coming in the likeness of sinful flesh and fulfilling his word that he is the Only Savour! What? You can approach God without going through Jesus? I can't. I have to go through Jesus (someone other than God) to approach God. And what exactly do
es anointed mean? Jesus was God's (as in possession) anointed. Did God anoint Himself? The promise was that God would send a servant – His Messiah, through whom He would save the world. It was always foretold that He was sending someone, not coming Himself. At least not until the end of this system of things when He reigns in person from New Jerusalem.You didn't answer this question: If Jesus IS God, why must we go through him to get to the Father? What's the difference if they are both equal members of God? And how is Jesus a mediator BETWEEN mankind and God?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 28 2010,09:32) If you were right Nick so what? The deputy is not the Sheriff who commissioned him. But this does not concern you for the deputy has the same authority as the Sheriff when he pulls you over for speeding. roo
Let's have some fun with this. Let's say the Sheriff of some little town laid down this law:
My deputies have the authority I gave them to enforce the law. But all fines must be paid directly to me. Under penalty of death, I am the ONLY one authorized to collect fines.
Now do the deputies have the exact same authority as the Sheriff? What happens to the speeder who ignores the “Almighty” Lawman of that town and thinks that the fine can be paid to any old deputy he sees?
Would it make a difference if the deputy the speeder tried to pay was the Sheriff's son?
Give unto the deputies what belongs to the deputies, but give unto ONLY the Sheriff what belongs ONLY to him.
peace and love,
mikeHi t8 and Gene,
Thank you both. I will read the link, t8.
And now that you mention it Gene, I did hear something about that before.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ May 27 2010,20:25) Most of the time you stick with scripture, but i do observe that in others you state what scripture does not say.
You said:
Quote
We have brains just like Paul. We can be smart enough to know when it says “all power and authority”, it doesn't mean “all” to the point that the Father has none.You first statement about Paul. I dont know if he had a brain, i never met him. (im trying to tickle you old man) Can we be smart enough…. to understand scripture i doubt it becasue God is smarter than the genius of this world. so im going to have to disregard your comment there. “All Power and Authority”
Corinthians 15:24 “Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”Idk about your conclusion. How do you intepret this verse? In spanish God and father are not seperated. just a observation. Who shall put down all rule and all authority and power.
Again if your sticking to your last comment about that it didnt include God. It didnt say, so we couldnt say it did or didnt. It said all. whatever that means in greek. ill look it up later. than later in the chapter it says God maybe all in all. Intresting….
You said
Quote
Same here. We can infer that he means no one but the Lamb [and his God who knows everything] knows his new name.This is the same problem here. If we assume or speculate what scripture does not say, than i might as well also speculate that the Holy Spirit knows too. If Jesus was God than that wouldnt be a problem. but in this case it is.
lol….jw…. thats funny.
I guess…i know what your talking abuot, it seems many have droped points that cant be refuted. I think mostly everyone is guilty of that lol.
Just deal with the scriptures, exactly,Your a cool old guy, (immature moment)
anyways!!! IT does seem that no one agrees lol. if no one agrees yet we say we have truth, whats the point of being right? I do not understand the logic…of being right…
Much love,
Hi Dennison,You said:
Quote Most of the time you stick with scripture, but i do observe that in others you state what scripture does not say. I'm not quite sure what that means. I couldn't have a conversation let alone a discussion by only quoting scripture, could I? Am I wrong to interpret?
You said:
Quote Can we be smart enough…. to understand scripture i doubt it becasue God is smarter than the genius of this world. so im going to have to disregard your comment there. Are you smart enough to know that when Zion is referred to as a “her”, the mountain does not really have a uterus?
I agree that teaching a man the ways of God would be harder than trying to teach an ant how to surf the web. But they are there for us for one reason – to teach us. And God gave us brains that can think comprehensively for one reason – to use them.You said:
Quote Corinthians 15:24 “Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” Idk about your conclusion. How do you intepret this verse?
Much like Joseph and the Pharaoh. If Pharaoh left town for a while and Joseph (as the #2 in charge) was running things, then when Pharaoh returned, Joseph would subject himself again to Pharaoh, so Pharaoh could rule personally. Now because Joseph “subjected” himself when Pharaoh returned doesn't mean that he was exactly equal or the same being as Pharaoh while he was gone, right? Even though everyone knew Joseph was in charge, they also knew that Pharaoh was still the highest ruler in Egypt, even though Joseph was put in charge of ruling for him in his absense.
You said:
Quote This is the same problem here. If we assume or speculate what scripture does not say, than i might as well also speculate that the Holy Spirit knows too. If Jesus was God than that wouldnt be a problem. but in this case it is. Who gave Jesus the new name? Wouldn't it be safe to assume that the One who gave him the name would also know it? Isn't that One said to know everything, while His Son is proved to not know everything?
For me it is not so much being “right” as it is getting the scriptures right. I've been wrong on this site, but I learn every time. And it might be man that points out I'm wrong, but it is scripture that forces me to re-evaluate my thoughts.
peace and love,
mikeTo All! I have often wondered why if the Catholic Church teaches wrong doctrines, that those that believe in the trinity believe so, cause it is that Church that was the first Church. They first of all believed that the first Pope was Peter. They believed that they wrote the Bible, not the Apostles. Now it all started with what was known as the Roman Universal Church. But that was not before the third century when Constantine after almost three Centuries of brutal and bloody persecution issued an edit allowing the Christians to practise their religion. Shortly after in 321 Constantine issued an edit forbidding work on Sundays and making it the day of worship. No Sabbath. Being persecuted for so long they compromised and so much was changed. Even our Calendar. We go by the Roman Calendar now. All Holy Days became Holidays. Lev. 23
In 325 Constantine established the Roman Universal Church to be the official religion of his empire. There is a lot more, but the point I am trying to make is this. Out of that Church came all other Churches and along with it the trinity Doctrine….And it was Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian who came up with the trinity. It is said that that was his best achievement to Christianity. He was born in A.D. 155 to Pagan Parents. The Apostles did not believe in a trinity. There are several Scriptures that prove to me how wrong it is.
Deut. 4:35 “Unto Thee it was shewed that thou mightiest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else besides Him.”
Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel, The LORD our God in one LORD.
Notice in both Scriptures LORD is in capital letters.1 Corinth. 8:4 “But that there is none other God but ONE.”
Ephesians 4:6………one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.”John 14:28 by Jesus own words He said this
….My Father is greater then I.”1Corinth. 11:3The Head of every man is Christ, the Head of Christ is God.”
So is Math. 29:19 then false? No, what that verse teaches us is how we are Baptized. When it says in the Holy Spirit, someone told us once that it should say In the name of the Father and of the Son and of His Holy Spirit.
Also if the Holy Spirit is a Person like the trinity claims, then He is the Father of Jesus. And we do know that is not so.
So it is God's Holy Spirit and not of the Holy Spirit making it a Him…..
Also we do know that there are some errors in order to make the trinity authentic…..yes, if you want to believe that the Holy Spirit is Jesus Father, I do not….
Math. 15:9 “But in vain they do worship Me teaching for doctrine and comamandment of men.” The trinity is a man made doctrine and not of God….Peace and Love Irene
mikeboll64,May wrote:[/quote]
Mike,Quote I'm not quite sure what that means. I couldn't have a conversation let alone a discussion by only quoting scripture, could I? Am I wrong to interpret? I agree about intepreting, but i think the two go hand on hand. lol but my point is that, sometimes it can be dangerous by making points what scripture doesnt say and than hold it true. I would rather accpet it as a theory but not as truth right away. Becuase we dont know. And lets say we were debating this, i would have to speculate with you in order to meet your arguement. in other words, this always leads to a circle of never ending arguements. Im not saying its wrong, just dangerous. you can believe whatever you want to believe, its your right too, and i would gladly defend your right too believe what you want too. But i wonder if you hold it has truth?
Quote Are you smart enough to know that when Zion is referred to as a “her”, the mountain does not really have a uterus? I agree that teaching a man the ways of God would be harder than trying to teach an ant how to surf the web. But they are there for us for one reason – to teach us. And God gave us brains that can think comprehensively for one reason – to use them.A few years ago, probably not, until someone explained it to me
lol =)
ARe you saying that we are smart enough to lead off points?
like the verse you mentioned, im sure that someone probably does believe that. After working in the fast food buisness for so long, i have developed a new way of training my staff in how to deal with costumers.
1) They dont know what they want, suggestive selling
2) the Menu is a puzzle to them, Explain it,
3) Lead them into the How to order by asking questions.
4) Use psychology to save time, ex: People will ask, can i have medium cup? I will respond with this, no problem here is the cup. Costumer: Where is my drink?, oh so you wanted a drink? This situation can happen about 100 times a day in a small store. literally. Its better to say, do you want a Coke?, and since people are almost always defensive, they will respond with NO, Sprite! ask them what they want to drink and they will say,… what you got?lol sometimes people are not as bright as you think they are.
as the movie Men and Black once mentioned, You can trust a indivdual but not the people because they would panic, and create chaos.Quote Much like Joseph and the Pharaoh. If Pharaoh left town for a while and Joseph (as the #2 in charge) was running things, then when Pharaoh returned, Joseph would subject himself again to Pharaoh, so Pharaoh could rule personally. Now because Joseph “subjected” himself when Pharaoh returned doesn't mean that he was exactly equal or the same being as Pharaoh while he was gone, right? Even though everyone knew Joseph was in charge, they also knew that Pharaoh was still the highest ruler in Egypt, even though Joseph was put in charge of ruling for him in his absense. So God is not omnipresent… so HE can be absent?
What is God doing? sitting back while his Son takes the wheel?
I thought that the Anti-Trin arguement was that God never shared his glory with anyone….Quote Who gave Jesus the new name? Wouldn't it be safe to assume that the One who gave him the name would also know it? Isn't that One said to know everything, while His Son is proved to not know everything?
For me it is not so much being “right” as it is getting the scriptures right. I've been wrong on this site, but I learn every time. And it might be man that points out I'm wrong, but it is scripture that forces me to re-evaluate my thoughts.
Who does give Jesus new name? does scripture say? Who came up with Gods names in the OT?
Once upon a Time, Jesus was limited. But he has all authority and power like your example about Joseph, i can also speculate that Jesus now knows everything.Oh Trust, being right for me is not my objective at all.
But its good to know what exactly is Scripture saying than it will lead to the answer.As in the other thread, thats what i was trying to do with everyone referring with John 10.
Yet people went of tangents. First they said that Jesus didnt mean it and that he corrected the Jews, than they argued that he meant he his greater by calling himself Son of God.
This wouldnt be a problem if we just sticked to scripture.
We can believe all we want, we have every right too, but Scripture as many say here, has its own voice.Much Love Mike,
Hi SF,
Jesus went about doing good because God was with him and he had been anointed by the Spirit of God.[from Acts 10.38]
He was not the God that was IN HIM or WITH HIM.'Thou art the Christ the SON OF the living God' earned praise from the one who knows better than catholic falsehood.
Love truth. Love what is written. It is precious and not to be tampered with.Nick………..I think it's better to understand what is written, and some of it (HAS) be tampered with, Brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2010,05:17) Love truth. Love what is written.
NHYet you deny that Mattew 28:19 is truth or is written!
You have no right to say the scriptures are truth and others should love it for you have cherry picked what you think is written and deny the rest!
WJ
PS, the same goes for you Gene!
WJ………..If you still do not know that Scripture (HAS) been tampered with , then you must not even believe your 600 scholars who also admit the tampering and contradictions in some places, This might Help you, get the Book “MISQUOTING JESUS”. You might find it quite enlightening. To say it has not been tampered with is simply being Nieves at best WJ, WJ, out of one side of your mouth you trust in your 600 scholars and then out of the other you deny them. And you accuse us of Cheery picking, Interesting.
peace and love…………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 28 2010,10:39) WJ………..If you still do not know that Scripture (HAS) been tampered with , then you must not even believe your 600 scholars who also admit the tampering and contradictions in some places, This might Help you, get the Book “MISQUOTING JESUS”. You might find it quite enlightening. To say it has not been tampered with is simply being Nieves at best WJ, WJ, out of one side of your mouth you trust in your 600 scholars and then out of the other you deny them. And you accuse us of Cheery picking, Interesting. peace and love…………………gene
GeneWhen you can show me a Hebrew or Greek scholar that denys that Matt 28:19 is not the inspired word of God, then you have a point!
The discrepencys you talk about are minor and have been dealt with 100s of years ago!
Minor variations in the text is not what I am talking about here Gene.
I am talking about a verse that is found in every extant MSS and is also quoted by the Forefathers in its present form back to the first century!
So ramble on about the scholars but this is not the same thing! If you do not accept Matt 28:19 as the words of Jesus then you have no right to claim that any verse you quote is valid!
WJ
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