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(Mat 1:21 NASB) “And she will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins.”
Yet we are told that it is YHWH who saves His people from their sins.
(Isa 43:11 NASB) “I, even I, am the LORD; And there is no savior besides Me.
There is a Savior, yet we are told in the Scriptures that only YHWH the LORD saves, and yet we are also told that Jesus is our Savior. So which is it? Does the Bible contradict itself by saying in one place that it is only YHWH the LORD who saves, yet, in another it is Jesus who will save His people from their sins? If only God can save people from their sins, and Jesus is said to save people from their sins, then Jesus must be God. Pretty simple and straightforward really…..
blessings
Hi e,
Did Jesus work in his own power and authority?
Who was the power of Jesus?
Who gave Jesus authority?
When Thomas and Philip looked at Jesus whom did they see?Neither is there any Creator but God
but he created all things through His Son
just as He saves ONLY through His Son.Quote (epistemaniac @ July 21 2006,23:27) (Mat 1:21 NASB) “And she will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins.” Yet we are told that it is YHWH who saves His people from their sins.
(Isa 43:11 NASB) “I, even I, am the LORD; And there is no savior besides Me.
There is a Savior, yet we are told in the Scriptures that only YHWH the LORD saves, and yet we are also told that Jesus is our Savior. So which is it? Does the Bible contradict itself by saying in one place that it is only YHWH the LORD who saves, yet, in another it is Jesus who will save His people from their sins? If only God can save people from their sins, and Jesus is said to save people from their sins, then Jesus must be God. Pretty simple and straightforward really…..
blessings
Hi E,
1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of *God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
Please note that 1 John 5:9 identifies the Father as God. This same God is identified above in 1 Jhn 4:14. The son is consistently the Son of God as the Father is consistently God and Father of the Son.
Anyhows, [paraphrase] Jesus said somewhere when the man was lowered through the roof by his friends, that it would have been easier to say the man's sins are forgiven and leave it there than to say get up and walk, but that men might know he has authority in heaven to forgive sins, he demonstrated his [God given] authority.
We have been forgiven much and so are commanded to likewise forgive [as relates to us]. Do you believe that your sincere forgiveness of others is effectual [to them]? If not then why does God bother to have us forgive others? And since men by the grace of God have been used by God to heal by his power through Christ, which is easier? that when we are tresspassed against we [say] forgive, or that in the name of Jesus and by the power of God, we pray they be healed? It's about God given authority.
We are the [little] light of the world, after THE Light of the world, who comes from the Father of Lights….
Jesus of course has greater authority to forgive sins as he is God's chosen to redeem the world back to God. And yet, do God not use ordinary men and even animals (Balaam's Donkey) to save men from physical threats and have the gospel preached for the salvation of their souls?
now wait a minute… what does the Bible say?
(Isa 43:11 NASB) “I, even I, am the LORD; And there is no savior besides Me.”
No trace here of saving through anyone else…. and yet in Mattew Jesus is said to be the Savior, saving His people from their sins….. so YHWH is the only Savior, and Jesus is the only savior…. which one is true?
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 22 2006,01:58) cube, I thought we were talking about Matthew?
Hi E,I thought we could use scripture to interpret scripture from any part, in other words, study Matthew but since his belief is not isolated from the whole bible, that we could draw on other texts as you have to expound or clarify verses. If we limit ourselves to just Matthew we could short change ourselves, but if others want to do that I could go along.
What do you think?
Also, in direct refutation then to your OP, I cite Matt 1:1 to say no human can conceive and give birth to God. Matt begins by associating the Christ with human birth [by the power of God].
We have to agree that it is preposterous and needless for the God of all to become an offspring of his own creation. The universe and all in it was created through Christ, but that's how the creator chose to bring about his creation.
Quote (Cubes @ July 21 2006,21:03) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 22 2006,01:58) cube, I thought we were talking about Matthew?
Hi E,I thought we could use scripture to interpret scripture from any part, in other words, study Matthew but since his belief is not isolated from the whole bible, that we could draw on other texts as you have to expound or clarify verses. If we limit ourselves to just Matthew we could short change ourselves, but if others want to do that I could go along.
What do you think?
hey there cubes… I totally believe that scripture interprets Scripture, that is why I compare Matthew to Isaiah… I was just going by what you had said in the Trinity thread…. eg if the Trinity is biblical, it ought to be found through out the Bible, and you said to start in Mattew, so that is what I did, at your request.Secondly, where did you mention Matt 1?
blessings
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 22 2006,01:54) now wait a minute… what does the Bible say? (Isa 43:11 NASB) “I, even I, am the LORD; And there is no savior besides Me.”
No trace here of saving through anyone else…. and yet in Mattew Jesus is said to be the Savior, saving His people from their sins….. so YHWH is the only Savior, and Jesus is the only savior…. which one is true?
I think that perspective could rather hurt your case even more, E.John 3:16 for example shall have to go out the door along with tons of scripture
Quote (Cubes @ July 21 2006,21:09) Also, in direct refutation then to your OP, I cite Matt 1:1 to say no human can conceive and give birth to God. Matt begins by associating the Christ with human birth [by the power of God]. We have to agree that it is preposterous and needless for the God of all to become an offspring of his own creation. The universe and all in it was created through Christ, but that's how the creator chose to bring about his creation.
Good post Cubes!E-Maniac, Numbers 23:19 clearly says that “God is NOT a man.” Likewise Hosea 11:9 quotes God as saying, “For I am GOD and NOT a man.”
We know that God changeth not and it would be impossible for Him to become one of His own creations. God becoming a man is all part of the pagan mythology that Paul and Barnabas saw on the isle of Laodocia. “The gods have come down to us as humans!(Zeus and Mercury)” Nothing could be further from the Hebrew's minds even today.
Well E-Maniac, when are you going to ANSWER my two questions that you obviously dodged?
Here they are again….they are not going away!
1.) Does our Lord Jesus have a God?
2.) Does God the Father have a God?
Siince you're having trouble answering these simple questions, I'll give you a little hint from the scriptures:
“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.” [Ephesiand 1-3]
You don't want to answer because the truth of what God's Word actually says might set you free from Satan's biggest lie.
Bless you all the same,
Semmy
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 22 2006,02:17) Quote (Cubes @ July 21 2006,21:03) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 22 2006,01:58) cube, I thought we were talking about Matthew?
Hi E,I thought we could use scripture to interpret scripture from any part, in other words, study Matthew but since his belief is not isolated from the whole bible, that we could draw on other texts as you have to expound or clarify verses. If we limit ourselves to just Matthew we could short change ourselves, but if others want to do that I could go along.
What do you think?
hey there cubes… I totally believe that scripture interprets Scripture, that is why I compare Matthew to Isaiah… I was just going by what you had said in the Trinity thread…. eg if the Trinity is biblical, it ought to be found through out the Bible, and you said to start in Mattew, so that is what I did, at your request.Secondly, where did you mention Matt 1?
blessings
As relates to your post, I just mentioned Matt 1:1 then.Prior to that, our posts crossed. I have one on Matt in Biblical Doctrine that I had been working on.
Sorry if I was unclear… I believe it is wise to always consider the whole bible/message as a unit unbroken. In this case we are studying Jesus from Matthew's perspective, but he draws on what was established before as well as what was happening … to convey his story so it is in our best interest to follow his lead as the Spirit leads throughout the bible.
Thanks, Semmy. Likewise. But I would suggest that we let E focus on the task at hand, not on his username.
E, you've got your work cut out for you there, bro.
The LORD is the only saviour. He sent his son and his son even asked for that cup to be removed if there was another way. But the son said “Not MY will but YOUR will”.
Even here we see that Jesus received our punishment because he did what his Father wanted, not necessarily what he wanted to do.
So the LORD saved us through his son. The son is the only mediator between man and God.
If God is the only saviour and he is invisible and no one has seen him, then how do you expect God to die on a cross.
Matt 1 21 as evidence for the Trinity is just a play on words and a huge stretch of the imagination to say that it is pointing to 3 persons that have lived together for eternity.
There are other legitimate saviours such as Moses and David who were sent by God. But in all cases they were sent by God, so it is God who is bringing salvation if his vessels are doing his will.
Likewise God is the only one that is good. So are we to conclude that all else is bad?
Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.Yet it is also written:
Proverbs 12:2
A good man obtains favor from the LORD, but the LORD condemns a crafty man.So epistemaniac. Can you answer this?
Are you good? Remember that only God is good.
Am I also to assume that some Men are God as they can be good, while respecting Jesus words that only God is good?Now I am the one playing with words if only to show you your own reasoning.
Quote (seminarian @ July 21 2006,21:24) Quote (Cubes @ July 21 2006,21:09) Also, in direct refutation then to your OP, I cite Matt 1:1 to say no human can conceive and give birth to God. Matt begins by associating the Christ with human birth [by the power of God]. We have to agree that it is preposterous and needless for the God of all to become an offspring of his own creation. The universe and all in it was created through Christ, but that's how the creator chose to bring about his creation.
Good post Cubes!E-Maniac, Numbers 23:19 clearly says that “God is NOT a man.” Likewise Hosea 11:9 quotes God as saying, “For I am GOD and NOT a man.”
We know that God changeth not and it would be impossible for Him to become one of His own creations. God becoming a man is all part of the pagan mythology that Paul and Barnabas saw on the isle of Laodocia. “The gods have come down to us as humans!(Zeus and Mercury)” Nothing could be further from the Hebrew's minds even today.
Well E-Maniac, when are you going to ANSWER my two questions that you obviously dodged?
Here they are again….they are not going away!
1.) Does our Lord Jesus have a God?
2.) Does God the Father have a God?
Siince you're having trouble answering these simple questions, I'll give you a little hint from the scriptures:
“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.” [Ephesiand 1-3]
You don't want to answer because the truth of what God's Word actually says might set you free from Satan's biggest lie.
Bless you all the same,
Semmy
lol… seminarian… believe me, I would never dodge your questions, for, you see, I too have gone to seminary (Grace College and Seminary), and I have taken very seriously the biblical command to be ready always to give a defense for the hope that is within me, and especially since I spent the first years of my life as a Christian interested in apologetics, I focused on the JW's the most, I have seen most of the typical Arian questions…..however, that being said, let me apologize for accidentally overlooking your questions and know that in the future if I fail to answer it's simply because I did not see it or this body of mine is too wracked with pain to be on the computer…….so lets look at your questions…..
Does our Lord Jesus have a God? As to touching His human nature, yes
Does God the Father have a God?
Nothere, that wasn't so hard was it?
as far as God changing by the incarnation, God is omniscient, so He could well figure out how to take on a human body without changing His essential nature… in fact, this is exactly what Paul teaches us:
(Phil 2:5-8 NASB) Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, {6} who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, {7} but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. {8} And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
blessings
Quote (Cubes @ July 21 2006,21:38) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 22 2006,02:17) Quote (Cubes @ July 21 2006,21:03) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 22 2006,01:58) cube, I thought we were talking about Matthew?
Hi E,I thought we could use scripture to interpret scripture from any part, in other words, study Matthew but since his belief is not isolated from the whole bible, that we could draw on other texts as you have to expound or clarify verses. If we limit ourselves to just Matthew we could short change ourselves, but if others want to do that I could go along.
What do you think?
hey there cubes… I totally believe that scripture interprets Scripture, that is why I compare Matthew to Isaiah… I was just going by what you had said in the Trinity thread…. eg if the Trinity is biblical, it ought to be found through out the Bible, and you said to start in Mattew, so that is what I did, at your request.Secondly, where did you mention Matt 1?
blessings
As relates to your post, I just mentioned Matt 1:1 then.Prior to that, our posts crossed. I have one on Matt in Biblical Doctrine that I had been working on.
Sorry if I was unclear… I believe it is wise to always consider the whole bible/message as a unit unbroken. In this case we are studying Jesus from Matthew's perspective, but he draws on what was established before as well as what was happening … to convey his story so it is in our best interest to follow his lead as the Spirit leads throughout the bible.
alrighty then (need a smile? Picture Jim Carey saying this!!lol!!!) …..I'm back from reading a bedtime story to my kids and praying for them….ok. cubes…. gotcha.. thanks for clearing that up, I agree with everything you said….. I did, after all, appeal to Isa. So I was comparing Scripture with Scripture, and was not basing what I was saying on one verse alone, I was just kinda surprised that you had said to start with Matthew, then you posted with nothing but 1 John….. but, then I had missed your referring to Matt 1…. so anyway… hopefully we are in agreement and know in fact, what it is precisely what we are agreeing to 😉
blessings
Quote (Cubes @ July 21 2006,21:09) Also, in direct refutation then to your OP, I cite Matt 1:1 to say no human can conceive and give birth to God. Matt begins by associating the Christ with human birth [by the power of God]. We have to agree that it is preposterous and needless for the God of all to become an offspring of his own creation. The universe and all in it was created through Christ, but that's how the creator chose to bring about his creation.
well of course Mary did not give birth to God!! He is eternal, just as the Son and Spirit are… at any rate, here is Matt 1:1, and honestly, I can't see any evidence for either position in it:(Mat 1:1 NASB) The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
or were you thinking of Luke 1:1ff?
blessings
Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20 But when he thought on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.Was Joseph's semen the holy spirit?
Before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
The only begotten of God.E-Maniac,
You did NOT answer my questions using any scriptures whatsoever, only your own opinion.
Razzzz! Oh, so sorry but you also used a qualifier in your answer which has no scriptural
basis. Here are your answers again:E-maniac answers:
Does our Lord Jesus have a God? As to touching His human nature, yes
Does God the Father have a God?
NoAs to touching his human nature? Where is THAT in the Bible? You are saying that Jesus only
had a God in his “human nature” or as a man. That is the extra-Biblical doctrine of the Dual Nature of Christ. Nowhere in scripture does it say Christ has two natures so that automatically disqualifies your answer. That was a predictable move!Let me show you something. Even in his GLORIFIED and EXALTED state now in Heaven, the
Lord Jesus tells us he has a God and Father. Try reading Revelation 3:12“Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.”
Read the whole verse. Our Lord Jesus says he has a God, THREE times
in this verse alone. Sorry but he's not a man now and he's still saying he has a God!Also read what Peter wrote which was long after Christ had risen and ascended to Heaven:
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…[1 Peter 1:3]
How do you explain that? See you can't without using another false
doctrine not found in the Bible such as the dual nature of Christ. Doesn't
work here either.
Would you like to try again using the Bible this time?
Bless ya!
Semmy
Quote (seminarian @ July 22 2006,03:17) E-Maniac, You did NOT answer my questions using any scriptures whatsoever, only your own opinion.
Razzzz! Oh, so sorry but you also used a qualifier in your answer which has no scriptural
basis. Here are your answers again:E-maniac answers:
Does our Lord Jesus have a God? As to touching His human nature, yes
Does God the Father have a God?
NoAs to touching his human nature? Where is THAT in the Bible? You are saying that Jesus only
had a God in his “human nature” or as a man. That is the extra-Biblical doctrine of the Dual Nature of Christ. Nowhere in scripture does it say Christ has two natures so that automatically disqualifies your answer. That was a predictable move!Let me show you something. Even in his GLORIFIED and EXALTED state now in Heaven, the
Lord Jesus tells us he has a God and Father. Try reading Revelation 3:12“Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.”
Read the whole verse. Our Lord Jesus says he has a God, THREE times
in this verse alone. Sorry but he's not a man now and he's still saying he has a God!Also read what Peter wrote which was long after Christ had risen and ascended to Heaven:
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…[1 Peter 1:3]
How do you explain that? See you can't without using another false
doctrine not found in the Bible such as the dual nature of Christ. Doesn't
work here either.Would you like to try again using the Bible this time?
Bless ya!
Semmy
Amen! What is going on with all this peverted gospel?
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel;
Gal 1:7 which is not another gospel only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.Kenrch wrote:
Amen! What is going on with all this peverted gospel?
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel;
Gal 1:7 which is not another gospel only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.Kenrch, I don't know man! My Bible pronounces “curses” on anyone who would add to the Gospel. Paul also said that even if an angel were to come down from heaven proclaiming a different Gospel that what he taught, not to believe him.
Here are two more proofs that our Lord EVEN NOW in Heaven has a God, the Father:
Rev. 1:1 “The revelations of Jesus Christ which GOD GAVE HIM.”
Rev. 1:6 “and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve HIS GOD AND FATHER..”
See when you tell one lie, you have to keep making up more to support the first one. That's how
I knew what E-maniac was going to write even before HE did. You know if someone wants to keep
being deceived, Satan is all too happy to oblige.Good use of scriptures here Kenrch! Amen, amen.
Semmy
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