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Hi Tim2,
Then who is his God?
Jn 20
“16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Does God
have a
GOD?Hi Nick,
Well, its explicit from that chapter that two persons are called God. The Father is called God, as you point out. And Jesus is called God. The Holy Spirit is later called God in Acts 5:4.
So the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God.
Tim
Hi Nick,
“Does God have a God?” Yes call the Father His God because Jesus is not only God but also man. Hence, having the nature of a man, Jesus is inferior to the Father in that respect, as the Athanasian creed says, and as Paul says in Philippians 2, and hence it is proper for Jesus to call the Father His God.
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 04 2007,08:27) WJ, David identifies three places in the Septuagint and NT where proskunein is used other than with Jesus and YHWH: Genesis 23:7, 1 Kings 1:22, and Matthew 18:26. So I will concede that it can mean to kneel before a king or to show respect. But it obviously also can mean worship, and as Revelation 22:9 says, worship that belongs to God alone.
Tim
Tim2I have no problem conceding that the word can mean to bow.
My point is that the word “Proskuneo” in the New Testament is exclusively used for true worship to the Father and Yeshua.
And every time the word was used to any but the Father and Yeshua it was discouraged, or it was to satan or the beast.
Matt 18:26 is a pararable about the Kingdom of God and the “King” of that kingdom.
Who is the King of the Kingdom?
Matt 18:
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.If any thing Jesus in this parable is supporting worship of himself, since he used the word “[proskuneo]” in refference to to himself.
60 Times the word “Proskuneo” is used in the New Testament as follows…
To the Father
Matt 4:10, Lk 4:8, Jn 4:20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 12:20, Acts 8:27, 24:11, 1 Cor 14:25, Heb 11:21, Rev 3:9, Rev 4:10, 11:1, 11:16, 14:7, 19:4
To Yeshua
Matt 2:2, 2:8, 2:11, 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 18:26, 20:20, 28:9, 28:17, MarK 5:6, 15:19, Lk 24:52, Jn 9:38, Heb 1:6, 15:4,
The Father and Yeshua
Rev 5:14, Rev 7:11,
To satan or the beast or the dragon or Idols
Matt 4:9, Lk 4:7, Acts 7:43, Rev 9:20, 13:4, 13:8, 13:12, 13:15, 14:9, 14:11, 16:2,
To Man (Each time was discouraged and refused)
Acts 10:25, Rev 19:10
So I say again that there is no place where “Proskuneo” is used in true worship except to the Father and Yeshua.
Those who want to take the view that it means to bow to Yeshua but worship to the Father have no proof that this is what is meant.
If you want to take this view, then that would mean that you have “NO Clear” example in the New Testament as to what “True Worship is”.
You can say you are only supposed to worship the Father until you are blue in the face, but based on scriptural fact you have no evidence that you “ARE NOT” to worship Yeshua.
In fact evidence points to worshipping Yeshua.
Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.The above scripture looks like a true picture of worship to me.
This is what Jesus meant when he said…
Jn 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Honour, Greek, “timao”, which means;
1) to estimate, fix the value
a) for the value of something belonging to one's self
2) to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerateRevere; to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor
Venerate;
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotionSynonyms: reverence, worship and adore.
This means the same Value, devotion, and reverence is to be place toward Yeshua as to the Father.
To the degree you homour Yeshua, its to that degree you honour the Father.
To me the word honour is a more powerfull word than worship because it includes worship.
God is a jealous God! He would not have man place this kind of honour on any other being.
Yet we see Yeshua getting this kind of honour, and that’s because Yeshua is our Lord and God.
Blessings
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2007,22:55) Hi Tim 2,
So Christ is two beings.
One has a God and one is God.
Right!!
No Nick,Jesus has two natures. He's called God. He's called man. He's one person. Jesus did not assert His equality with God but emptied Himself and took the form of a servant. So, in the form of a servant, He calls His Father His God.
In any event, Jesus is still our God. John 20:28.
Tim
WJ,
I agree. In the New Testament proskunein is used exclusively for Yeshua and YHWH. Thank you for faithfully proclaiming the truth. May God give everyone in this forum grace to understand Him and worship Him in spirit and truth.
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 04 2007,20:17) Charity, You might want to check out the jealousy thread. I don't see how YHWH could allow His book to end with an appeal to someone else.
Tim
Thanks Tim2
I will keep lookingHave not Christ root in him self; for when a tree is cut down to the roots it grows again looks different in its new glory from how it used to look; but it still remains the same seed or even soul new prepared body even vine?
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
Now if these things I have said be the truth we have fallen short of giving glory to the right one in the end King David in his new glory the author of the new creation
Day of the truth prophecy even of whom God sent into the world?
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.charity
Quote (david @ April 04 2007,08:26) Quote The same word “proskuneo” is applied to the Father also, does that mean they were not worshipping the Father? No, obviously not. But I never said this, did I? What I DID SAY is that that word is also applied to humans and it's used at other places where “worship” is obviously not what the Bible is referring to. (See Mark 15:19)
Quote This is a play on words and you know it.
It being a “play on words” is a lie and you know it.It's not a play on words, but rather, it's looking what the word actually means, as opposed to what you want it to mean or what your translators bias caused him to want it to mean.
It's knowing the defition of the word and ALL the ways it's used in the Bible to understand the actual meaning of the word.
Quote If you can make claim that “proskuneo” in context of Yeshua being worshipped also means, bow down, and because of this it can not mean to worship Jesus, Then how can you make claim to the word “theos” in context of the Father as being God, when “theos” also means, magistrates and judges and is used for Jesus and Satan?
It doesn't “also mean bown down.” This is the primary meaning of the word. And “theos” never means magistrates or judges, but that word is applied to the judges of Israel, Satan, and Jesus.
(It's hard to defend what the Bible says when you filter your arguments wich confusion that isn't true. Please be more accurate.)Quote Its the context that shows that Christ is being worshipped and not once does he redirect or rebuke for what could be an act of Idolatry.
He doesn't rebuke it or redirect it, because REMEMBER, THAT WORD HAS MORE THAN ONE MEANING, and what they were doing, (proskyneo) was perfectly fine, given that that word esentially means to bown down before. It's true, it most often conveys the idea of worship, but the actual meaning of the word is to bow down and it certainly doesn't always mean worship.Quote Jn 4:
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship ( proskuneo) the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship (proskuneo) him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship (proskuneo) him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth.Jesus knew exactly what the word “proskuneo” meant.
Rev 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship (proskuneo) him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship (proskuneo) God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.Here we see the word used toward the messenger and was was forbidden and then told to worship God.
Dont you think Jesus would have done the same.
I feel you are missing the whole concept or point. Jesus didn't do the same because when they honouring him in that way, it wasn't “worship” it was obeisance (one of the meanings of the word “proskyneo.”) Remember?
In the one case, what they were doing was wrong, so it clearly was worship towards someone other than God. Hence, worship was directed towards God.
In the second instance, where it's Jesus, what was being done wasn't worship, it was one of the other definitions of that word.david
DavidSo basically what you are saying is that the word “Proskuneo”
Should be translated “worship” when you think it should be.
Even though Jesus could have used another word like…
Worship, “latreuo”, which means;
1) to serve for hire
2) to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen
a) in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship
b) to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for his worship
1) of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office
Or
Worship “sebomai” which means;
to revere, to worship
Or
Worship “doxa” which means;
1) opinion, judgment, view
2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone
a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting
in praise, honour, and gloryHe could have used any one of these words to describe our worship to the Father in John ch 4.
But instead he chooses the same Greek word that is being practiced on him “Proskuneo” to describe our worship to the Father.
Thomas cried out my Lord and My God in worship and adoration to our Lord and God,
Yeshua, The Lord from heaven.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 05 2007,01:01) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2007,22:55) Hi Tim 2,
So Christ is two beings.
One has a God and one is God.
Right!!
No Nick,Jesus has two natures. He's called God. He's called man. He's one person. Jesus did not assert His equality with God but emptied Himself and took the form of a servant. So, in the form of a servant, He calls His Father His God.
In any event, Jesus is still our God. John 20:28.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
So he is only called God.
Well why do you confuse him with God?Hi Nick,
Jesus is called God because He is God. Calling someone God who isn't God is blasphemy. Are you accusing Thomas of blasphemy?
I agree. The Father is our God. This is what the doctrine of the Trinity holds. Why don't you start arguing with what we're actually saying.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
The trinity theory of God is not found in the mouth of Christ or any of the prophets and apostles.
So why do you promote it?Hi Nick,
The Trinity doctrine merely restates what is found in the Bible. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. They are not three gods, but one God. Why do you deny what is explicitly in the Bible?
Tim
Hi Tim2,
No that is not the bible teaching.
It is the derived thoughts of men.
You should let the bible teach you and you would grasp that the God spoken of 2000 times is the Father and the rest need to be looked at in this rather bright light.Hi Nick,
The Father is God. You agree to that I see.
Jesus is God. The Bible says it. Apparently not enough times for you. Sorry, I can't help you there.
The Holy Spirit is God. You agree to that, but think He's just a manifestation, not a person. Well a parakletos is a person, so please reconsider. I also don't know of any manifestations that talk and call themselves “I” and “Me.”
They are not three gods, but one God. Well there's only one God, but you ignore the Bible's statements that Jesus is that God.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Not much sign of original thought there but the old traditional line.
The developers of these theories will not be with you
when you meet the one we call master.
So why rely on them now?Hi Tim,
The words of truth according to the words of truth.
Filter off the dregs, the foolish thoughts of men.
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