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I thought it wasn't about us Nick? You can't seem to make up your mind.
I suppose the “favor” I should do to myself is say “God, please reduce my capacity to reason. Please also allow me to find excuses for the very inhumane things I find in the bible. I know your ways are perfect, so help me to ignore or reason away all of the racism, sexism, brutality, and unbelievable things in Your Word. I want to return to the days of zombie-like blind faith”
Fortunately, God doesn't require me to do so. As I said before, God gave me a brain and He never said I should not use it to its full capacity. I guess God (or “satan”) cursed me with a logical mind.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2008,22:28) Hi KJ,
Listen to your philosopher
Ecc12Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
13And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
14I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
..
18For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecc5
1Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.ecc7
16Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself ?17Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time?
18It is good that thou shouldest take hold of this; yea, also from this withdraw not thine hand: for he that feareth God shall come forth of them all.
Don't forget these!- Ecc 2:16 For there is no lasting remembrance of the wise man as with the fool, inasmuch as in the coming days all will be forgotten. And how the wise man and the fool alike die!
Ecc 3:12 I know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good in one's lifetime;
Ecc 3:13 moreover, that every man who eats and drinks sees good in all his labor–it is the gift of God.Ecc 3:19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?
Ecc 3:22 I have seen that nothing is better than that man should be happy in his activities, for that is his lot. For who will bring him to see what will occur after him?What is “wickedness” Nick? I guess to you its questioning the various things of the bible that lead to a view of a very brutal and vengeful God.
Quote (kejonn @ April 03 2008,07:34) But I don't have to with God. He does not expect me, IMHO, to have to base my faith on Him via such a flawed creation of humanity. The bible is full of the biases of man and can in no way be inspired by a perfect loving God. It is too bigoted, sexist, and brutal.
OK, I follow you. But if you don't have the Bible, or the “gospel” was never shared with you, how would you have come to God? And as it stands now, if you do not have the Bible how will you grow in knowledge of Him? Through, as you say, your own leadings and desires?I don't know, I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I also think that the Bible and it's many stories have endured for a reason. Look at the Dead Sea Scrolls – there is proof that at least some of the Bible is ancient. I'm sure the majority of it is flawed, don't get me wrong, shoot, even I found out the Trinity wasn't true by using an NIV – ha!
Quote (kejonn @ April 03 2008,07:34) Quote
Have you ever considered that Jesus was too powerful of a revelation that it was kept under hat?Read that again. Tell me if it makes sense.
I was so tired when I wrote that post, sorry.What I meant was that perhaps there were many things written about Jesus but they were destroyed by those who didn't wan't “proof” lying around. We know that many libraries burned, for instance.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 04 2008,16:29) Quote (kejonn @ April 03 2008,07:34) But I don't have to with God. He does not expect me, IMHO, to have to base my faith on Him via such a flawed creation of humanity. The bible is full of the biases of man and can in no way be inspired by a perfect loving God. It is too bigoted, sexist, and brutal.
OK, I follow you. But if you don't have the Bible, or the “gospel” was never shared with you, how would you have come to God? And as it stands now, if you do not have the Bible how will you grow in knowledge of Him? Through, as you say, your own leadings and desires?I don't know, I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I also think that the Bible and it's many stories have endured for a reason. Look at the Dead Sea Scrolls – there is proof that at least some of the Bible is ancient. I'm sure the majority of it is flawed, don't get me wrong, shoot, even I found out the Trinity wasn't true by using an NIV – ha!
Why can't you follow your own path trusting, in the case of believers, that god gave you a brain with a conscience that he created for you. Is it not abusive of god that humans have written a book and claimed it to be written by the omniscience one when it can be shown to be significantly wrong in many places? Is it not abusive of god to require people to avoid using their critical faculties when they just 'submit', as Nick put it in another thread? If christianity really is a true model of the world, why does it look so ambiguous? Could it be that the bible is not divine-inspired? Could it be satan convincing believers that it is? There is no sure way to tell!Stuart
Hi Stu,
If God gave men a conscience then we would always agree.
The book is never wrong but the few adjustments men have made confuse some.
Christianity only shows a world that is lost in it's own vanities, desperately in need of a saviour.
The bible is divinely inspired
While men are born rebelliousQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2008,20:05) Hi Stu,
If God gave men a conscience then we would always agree.
The book is never wrong but the few adjustments men have made confuse some.
Christianity only shows a world that is lost in it's own vanities, desperately in need of a saviour.
The bible is divinely inspired
While men are born rebellious
Five unsubstantiated assumptions, one per line.Stuart
Hi Stu,
Are you hopeful that the constant drip of doubt applied to the minds of the young
can seduce them off the path of truth?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2008,20:25) Hi Stu,
Are you hopeful that the constant drip of doubt applied to the minds of the young
can seduce them off the path of truth?
You only make a serious effort to reply to those who would seem to be 'losing faith'. Is hypocricy justified in scripture?
Oh yes, any part of the OT that uses the word 'smote'.I don't want to convert anyone. You do. Big difference.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
As far as the mind goes it seems what we were born with has to be realigned.
Rom 12
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2008,20:57) Hi Stu,
As far as the mind goes it seems what we were born with has to be realigned.
Rom 12
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
You have to fix what god got wrong in his creation of you?Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 03 2008,23:29) Quote (kejonn @ April 03 2008,07:34) But I don't have to with God. He does not expect me, IMHO, to have to base my faith on Him via such a flawed creation of humanity. The bible is full of the biases of man and can in no way be inspired by a perfect loving God. It is too bigoted, sexist, and brutal.
OK, I follow you. But if you don't have the Bible, or the “gospel” was never shared with you, how would you have come to God? And as it stands now, if you do not have the Bible how will you grow in knowledge of Him? Through, as you say, your own leadings and desires?
Hey Mandy,No I would not have come to God. But is that a reason for me to then go on an accept that God is who the OT says He is? Should I not see that such an ancient tribal view of God is biased and certainly not viable in a modern society? Must I make excuses to reason so much away?
Understand that when I was originally led to God, it was via a few passages or ideas about God. Most people who tell you about Jesus and/or God only tell you so much. What they usually tell you is what Jesus has done in their life and 90% don't have a clue what the OT says. They get spoon fed most of what they know from a pastor or TV evangelist.
There have been many Christians who became atheists after reading the OT seriously. Thank God that I discovered a revealed religious text that allowed me not to turn my back on God but to view Him in a more sane fashion with no excuses needed. Otherwise I would have either become a deist with no direction or an agnostic.
Quote I don't know, I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I also think that the Bible and it's many stories have endured for a reason. Look at the Dead Sea Scrolls – there is proof that at least some of the Bible is ancient. I'm sure the majority of it is flawed, don't get me wrong, shoot, even I found out the Trinity wasn't true by using an NIV – ha!
Hinduism is older than all other religions. The Vedas — a Hindu religious text — dates anywhere from 1500 BCE to 6000 BCE in its origins. So if it is invalid, why was it allowed to remain?Do you see that this reasoning is not quite right?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 03 2008,23:31) Quote (kejonn @ April 03 2008,07:34) Quote
Have you ever considered that Jesus was too powerful of a revelation that it was kept under hat?Read that again. Tell me if it makes sense.
I was so tired when I wrote that post, sorry.What I meant was that perhaps there were many things written about Jesus but they were destroyed by those who didn't wan't “proof” lying around. We know that many libraries burned, for instance.
There were many other books written about Jesus that only survive as fragments. Guess what? Many of them do not paint the same picture of Jesus that the bible does. So who is to say, as you said, that the early church did not destroy many other works that did not fit their agenda.The OT, sadly, is the same in some sense. It is full of political power plays among the various priest hoods.
Both testaments are the works of humans Mandy. Humans like us, but perhaps with more religious fervor. Yet they had their own biases like us. And just as there are many Christian denominations, there were many different sects trying to make sure their view was the accepted one.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2008,03:05) Hi Stu,
If God gave men a conscience then we would always agree.
The book is never wrong but the few adjustments men have made confuse some.
Christianity only shows a world that is lost in it's own vanities, desperately in need of a saviour.
The bible is divinely inspired
While men are born rebellious
Read the book of Acts Nick. It didn't take too long for Christians to start disliking each other.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 04 2008,16:29) Quote (kejonn @ April 03 2008,07:34) But I don't have to with God. He does not expect me, IMHO, to have to base my faith on Him via such a flawed creation of humanity. The bible is full of the biases of man and can in no way be inspired by a perfect loving God. It is too bigoted, sexist, and brutal.
OK, I follow you. But if you don't have the Bible, or the “gospel” was never shared with you, how would you have come to God? And as it stands now, if you do not have the Bible how will you grow in knowledge of Him? Through, as you say, your own leadings and desires?I don't know, I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I also think that the Bible and it's many stories have endured for a reason. Look at the Dead Sea Scrolls – there is proof that at least some of the Bible is ancient. I'm sure the majority of it is flawed, don't get me wrong, shoot, even I found out the Trinity wasn't true by using an NIV – ha!
To be honest Mandy, it was scripture, primarily the OT, that led me away from my Lutheran upbringing and God as a child. I thought it all ridiculous for the weak and easily influenced. The whole thing was illogical. (Funny, my computer just started playing REM's “losing my religion” talk about coincidence.) As a teenager I shifted first to agnostic then deist, then a Jesus following deist as I contemplated God, the universe and life alone in my room at night. So it is possible without scripture. My beliefs have been constantly evolving ever since through study of a wide variety of spiritual systems and my own experiences. I find the Bible despite obvious flaws, has value, but so do other texts on spirituality.Yeah…
People are going to be thinking magic when JESUS comes back!
They are going to be saying…Man I wish I had listened to those people about GOD, The Son Jesus Christ…and That Holy Ghost.
Lord Jesus Christ …help those who don't believe soften their hearts so that we might all back in your full Glory at the day of your return. So that we might ALL be a part of your church. I'd hate to see some one not get to be with GOD and his kingdom.
I don't even want to be present when he is telling people that they can't come into his kingdom. What a tragic time for them to realize that they were decived by Satan and did not wish to have a relationship with GOD.
Samuel,
You may be right, but then most religions have no shortage of fervent believers who all tell the same tale, you had better believe as I believe or you will be condemned after death. They all think they are right and all have their own holy scriptures that they tout as God's will. What do you think your chances of salvation would be if you were raised in North Korea and taught to worship the dear leader, or for the large numbers who look to the Koran for truth. I would hazard a guess that if you were raised in Saudi Aarabi you would be a devout Muslim today perhaps even a jihadists wishing to show Allah how much you love him by carrying out holy war against the infidels. According to most of the views on this site the means to salvation are narrow enough that the vast number of souls who ever lived will be heading to some sort of damnation. Do you think omniscience sets up such a plan that ultimately condemns the vast majority of his own creations? Go back and read my post on the illogic of how many view the dispensation of salvation. Have you ever thought that you yourself may be the one deceived?
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