- This topic is empty.
- Posts
There it is, pure and simple. They worshipped Him. Proskunaenantes . No mere bowing their faces (klinouson) to the angels, as in 24:5. It's hard to get any more obvious. Jesus is God. Worship Him.
Hi Tim2,
So we do not need scriptural teaching anymore?
We just observe what people did and draw INFERENCES and they are good enough?Tim, could you do me a favor and read Adam's link?
It mentions many things that we cannot block out of our minds when considering this.
The Hebrew word for worship, shachah – Strong's 7812, is used more often in the OT (the Hebrew Bible), in regards to men, than it is used in regards to Almighty GOD!! The KJV/Bible translators obscured this fact by translating this word as
bow down, fall down, make obeisance, do obeisance, do reverence,etc.Anyway, for some reason not all Bible translators translate that scripture you speak of as “worship.”
DBY: And they, having done him homage, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
YLT: and they, having bowed before him, did turn back to Jerusalem with great joy,
NWT: And they did obeisance to him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.
etc.
There it is. Pure and simple.
That's nice David, but if you'd read my post you would see that Luke distinguishes between showing respect by bowing down to the angels in 24:5 (klinouson) and the literal worship (proskunaenantes) they gave to Jesus AFTER he had ascended, so there was no one to bow down to. They could only have been worshipping Him in spirit, and guess who you're supposed to do that to?
Luke clearly reserves proskunein for worship of God alone, for this is what he says Peter forbids Cornelius to do to him in Acts 10:25.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 18 2007,05:03) That's nice David, but if you'd read my post you would see that Luke distinguishes between showing respect by bowing down to the angels in 24:5 (klinouson) and the literal worship (proskunaenantes) they gave to Jesus AFTER he had ascended, so there was no one to bow down to. They could only have been worshipping Him in spirit, and guess who you're supposed to do that to? Luke clearly reserves proskunein for worship of God alone, for this is what he says Peter forbids Cornelius to do to him in Acts 10:25.
Tim2Good points!
Hi
60 Times the word “Proskuneo” is used in the New Testament as follows…
To the Father
Matt 4:10, Lk 4:8, Jn 4:20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 12:20, Acts 8:27, 24:11, 1 Cor 14:25, Heb 11:21, Rev 3:9, Rev 4:10, 11:1, 11:16, 14:7, 19:4
To Yeshua
Matt 2:2, 2:8, 2:11, 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 18:26, 20:20, 28:9, 28:17, MarK 5:6, 15:19, Lk 24:52, Jn 9:38, Heb 1:6, 15:4,
The Father and Yeshua
Rev 5:14, Rev 7:11,
To satan or the beast or the dragon or Idols
Matt 4:9, Lk 4:7, Acts 7:43, Rev 9:20, 13:4, 13:8, 13:12, 13:15, 14:9, 14:11, 16:2,
To Man (Each time was discouraged and refused)
Acts 10:25, Rev 19:10
So I say again that there is no place where “Proskuneo” is used in true worship except to the Father and Yeshua.
Yeshua used the word “Proskuneo” in his example of true worship to the Father. Why would he do that when he could have used other words.
Those who want to take the view that it means to bow to Yeshua but worship to the Father have no proof that this is what is meant.
If you want to take this view, then that would mean that you have “NO Clear” example in the New Testament as to what “True Worship is”.
You can say you are only supposed to worship the Father until you are blue in the face, but based on scriptural fact you have no evidence that you “ARE NOT” to worship Yeshua.
In fact evidence points to worshipping Yeshua.
Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.The above scripture looks like a true picture of worship to me.
This is what Jesus meant when he said…
Jn 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Honour, Greek, “timao”, which means;
1) to estimate, fix the value
a) for the value of something belonging to one's self
2) to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerateRevere; to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor
Venerate;
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotionSynonyms: reverence, worship and adore.
This means the same Value, devotion, and reverence is to be place toward Yeshua as to the Father.
To the degree you homour Yeshua, its to that degree you honour the Father.
To me the word honour is a more powerfull word than worship because it includes worship.
God is a jealous God! He would not have man place this kind of honour on any other being.
Yet we see Yeshua getting this kind of honour, and that’s because Yeshua is our Lord and God.
Blessings
Hi W,
If we can draw foundational doctrines, not from what is found in the mouth of Jesus but rather from how others related to him, then sooner or later this approach will be a failure.After all he was hated, scourged, spat upon and murdered.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 18 2007,07:09) Hi W,
If we can draw foundational doctrines, not from what is found in the mouth of Jesus but rather from how others related to him, then sooner or later this approach will be a failure.After all he was hated, scourged, spat upon and murdered.
NHWhy do you deny the very words of our Lord Jesus that said true “Proskuneo” to the Father is in Spirit and in truth.
The overwhelming evidence in front of you is not enough is it NH?
Is your doctrine more important than the scriptures you read?
Nick,
So you only listen to the red letters? You don't believe that all Scripture is the word of God? And Jesus was just so fed up with His disciples mistakes, that He didn't bother to rebuke them when they started worshipping Him? Quite an inference.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
The soldiers insulting and abusing our Saviour Lord also “worshiped” him
so please show us from scripture that we have a new God as we are bereans.Quote 60 Times the word “Proskuneo” is used in the New Testament as follows… Quote To Yeshua
Matt 2:2, 2:8, 2:11, 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 18:26, 20:20, 28:9, 28:17, MarK 5:6, 15:19, Lk 24:52, Jn 9:38, Heb 1:6, 15:4,Quote So I say again that there is no place where “Proskuneo” is used in true worship except to the Father and Yeshua. Are all these instances where proskyneo are used with reference to Jesus considered “true worship”?
Mark 15:19 is the clearest example that we can't just always translate that word 'worship.' Clearly, those who spat on him, bowed down to him mockingly, and weren't engaged in “true worship.”
Quote To Man (Each time was discouraged and refused) Acts 10:25, Rev 19:10
Isn't Rev 19:10 where John falls to his feet in awe and wrongly worships the angel? So This rev 19:10 doesn't really belong in your list here. (I actually copied your work and pasted it into my “worship” file. Now, I have to take this scripture out. I would imagine you'd want to do the same.)Quote 60 Times the word “Proskuneo” is used in the New Testament as follows… To the Father
Matt 4:10, Lk 4:8, Jn 4:20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 12:20, Acts 8:27, 24:11, 1 Cor 14:25, Heb 11:21, Rev 3:9, Rev 4:10, 11:1, 11:16, 14:7, 19:4
To Yeshua
Matt 2:2, 2:8, 2:11, 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 15:25, 18:26, 20:20, 28:9, 28:17, MarK 5:6, 15:19, Lk 24:52, Jn 9:38, Heb 1:6, 15:4,
The Father and Yeshua
Rev 5:14, Rev 7:11,
To satan or the beast or the dragon or Idols
Matt 4:9, Lk 4:7, Acts 7:43, Rev 9:20, 13:4, 13:8, 13:12, 13:15, 14:9, 14:11, 16:2,
To Man (Each time was discouraged and refused)
Acts 10:25, Rev 19:10
So I say again that there is no place where “Proskuneo” is used in true worship except to the Father and Yeshua.
The word “proskyneo” which has several meanings (“worship” being one of them) is applied to Jehovah, Jesus, men, an angel, satan, the beast, idols, etc.
What you have showed about where this word occurs in no way logically leads to your conclusion:
So I say again that there is no place where “Proskuneo” is used in true worship except to the Father and Yeshua.Quote Yeshua used the word “Proskuneo” in his example of true worship to the Father. Why would he do that when he could have used other words.
I'm wondering if you could provide a list of other words that would have made more sense. I”ve noticed on this forum that there are several english words that have a variety of meanings. We are used to these words and understand their meaning often based on the context. No one really picks apart other peoples choice of words, where they could have used more precise words. Most english words have a variety of meanings and most words have many synonyms.
What we do know is that proskyneo has several shades of meaning. It definitely doesn't simply mean “worship” without any consideration of the context.Quote Those who want to take the view that it means to bow to Yeshua but worship to the Father have no proof that this is what is meant.
You're right. We only have Jesus saying to render sacred service to the Father alone. We only have Jesus pointing to the Father to worship as opposed to pointing to himself.
In saying what you said, it should equally be stated that you have absolutely no proof that Jesus should be worshipped. We do have proof that this word should not always be rendered “worship.”Quote Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.The above scripture looks like a true picture of worship to me.
Maybe that is because you noticed the word “worshipped” there several years ago and never looked into the word it was translated from. This thought of worshipping Jesus became tradition, something hard to break. So, yes, of course it looks like worshipping to you. It does to most. That is how most trinitarian translators would translate it afterall.Quote Jn 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Honour, Greek, “timao”, which means;
1) to estimate, fix the value
a) for the value of something belonging to one's self
2) to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerateRevere; to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor
Venerate;
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotionSynonyms: reverence, worship and adore.
So, you're saying: “honour = worship”?
Let's get back to the Greek and forget your ENGLISH dictionaires. YOU ARE DOING THIS BACKWARDS.you should start with the greek word proskyneo which means bow down with respect honour or worship.
You can't take the english word “honour” and go through a series of definitions until you get to one that says “worship.”
We're trying to figure out what the Greek word means or meant back then, not what English dictionaries say today!Quote To me the word honour is a more powerfull word than worship because it includes worship.
“honour” does not mean to worship.In summary, everything you have said doesn't actually prove anything, except perhaps that you can't prove what you are attempting to.
David,
Your dismissal of WJ's list of who is worshipped is unwarranted. All of the examples listed are either (1) true worship of Jesus or the Father; (2) worship of Satan and the false gods; or (3) worship of a man or an angel (Rev 19:10) that is quickly rebuked.
Now we know from the Bible that it is wrong to worship Satan, his false gods, men, and angels. That is why all the instances of it in WJ's verses are condemned.
That leaves us with the worship of Jesus and the Father, none of which is condemned. So worship of Jesus is affirmed!
The rest of your argument is basically, “proskyneo” might not always mean worship. So maybe every time it's applied to Jesus it doesn't mean worship. Maybe! Your message is, “Have doubt. Who knows what the Bible is saying. It's ambiguous. You can't believe anything.”
That's garbage. The Bible is clear. Don't try to create confusion. When the disciples grab Jesus feet and proskyneo Him you know it's worship. When Jesus ascends and He's no longer there, and the disciples proskyneo, that's worship in the spirit, because it can't be anything else.
Jesus is God. Worship Him.
Tim
Tim 2 you fear an aviator more than God?
The axe is laid unto the root of the tree; at his root he is hewn down despising his fathers flesh
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?
flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the “spirit of holiness”, by the “resurrection” from the dead
To understand that he is the Son of GOD; AND HOW THE Son OF Man transformed and became the Son of GOD; by blindly refusing to learn this and placing him as God and Gods son to make your grandfornally finish you miss your own transformation knowledge in following Him.
If only you would see the power invested in the Son of the MAN King David;
It would bring life and hope within reality of reach.
And after you understand to take part in the first resurrection with him you shall also be declared Sons of God; under the King of Kings Lord of LORDSThe “Son Of MAN” SHALL return and APPEAR IN THE CLOUDS in Power Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Mat 25:31 When the “Son of man” shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, “then shall he sit “upon the throne of his glory: (“King David is still the King” untill the Son of MAN APPEARS FOR YOU TO SIT ON THE THRONE;
or Pro 30:27 The locusts have no king, yet go they forth all of them by bands;
Israel dwelling without a king on the everlasting throne untill he appear for you; (despise King David even)Yet some of them that heard these words spoken that day that they shall not taste of death until they see the Son of MAN COMING IN HIS GLORY; They have received a King of Kings he appeared for them on clouds
THIS IS BY knowledge of the truth to overcome; for the kingdom of God is in your heart and he is knocking on the door if you should hear him calling you may open and sit with him; or the reality of The Son of MAN shall come as the thief in the night TO WHOM REFUSED TO AKNOWLEDGE HIM IN THE FLESH.charity
Jesus is worthy of praise and honor and glory!
But I follow His instructions and pray to His God. Not to Saints or even the Queen of heaven, nor to the Son. I pray through the Son Not to the Son.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Jesus is LORD and should be praised and worshiped as such but not as Father. 1Cor. 8:6David
I know this is hard for you to accept that the word for true worship, “Proskuneo” is only used in the New Testament for the Father and Yeshua.
But if you were an honest theologian then you would accept it and move on.
Why do you have such a problem with it since your bible says Yeshua is “a god”?
You say…
Quote
I'm wondering if you could provide a list of other words that would have made more sense.
Heres the other words which I have already shown you, that Yeshua could have used for true worship to the Father instead of the one being practiced on him…Worship, “latreuo”, which means;
1) to serve for hire
2) to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen
a) in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to *worship*
b) to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to *worship* God in the observance of the rites instituted for his *worship*
1) of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office
Or
Worship “sebomai” which means;
to revere, to *worship*
Or
Worship “doxa” which means;
1) opinion, judgment, view
2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone
a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting
in *praise*, honour, and gloryHe could have used any one of these words to describe our worship to the Father in John ch 4.
But instead he chooses the same Greek word that is being practiced on him “Proskuneo” to describe our worship to the Father.
Thomas cried out my Lord and My God in worship and adoration to our Lord and God,
Yeshua, The Lord from heaven.
Quote (kenrch @ April 20 2007,02:31) Jesus is worthy of praise and honor and glory! But I follow His instructions and pray to His God. Not to Saints or even the Queen of heaven, nor to the Son. I pray through the Son Not to the Son.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Jesus is LORD and should be praised and worshiped as such but not as Father. 1Cor. 8:6
KHMMM?
So you never talk to Jesus your Lord and master?
Quote (Tim2 @ April 17 2007,15:20) There it is, pure and simple. They worshipped Him. Proskunaenantes . No mere bowing their faces (klinouson) to the angels, as in 24:5. It's hard to get any more obvious. Jesus is God. Worship Him.
Hi,
Lk 24.52
52 And they worshipped [4352]him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:Number 4352
Transliteration:
proskuneo {pros-koo-neh'-o}
Word Origin:
from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand)
TDNT:
6:758,948
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
worship 60Total: 60
Definition:
to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
to the Jewish high priests
to God
to Christ
to heavenly beings
to demonsIf anyone thinks bowing to the ground is appropriate worship of God then they are not very aware of how, scripturally, God is to be worshiped.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
