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Hi LU,
Humans are beside the Son of Man when he returns as the man God ordained to judge the earth and destroy enemies. They alongside him judge and destroy, so that YHVH’s kingdom will then rule overall.
The below passage is speaking of humans who do YHVH’s commandments. Humans who are YHVH’s messengers obeying him harkening unto His word so that they can destroy enemies and YHVH’s kingdom will rule overall.
Psalms 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children’s children; 18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them. 19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all. 20 Bless the LORD, ye his messengers, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. 21 Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure. 22 Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the LORD, O my soul.
Psalms 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation. 5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; 7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (new birth) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Hebrews 1 is likening the Son of Man, who according to YHVH’s promise unto David, concerning his son, was begotten on the day he was resurrected where he received also as promised the Holy Spirit to live within him. This Jesus, whom was raised from the dead, YHVH made him both lord and Christ (anointed) where he received the promised mercies of David. He was given David’s throne to which it was promised that it would be an eternal throne. Such makes him a king and a lord overall. Such makes him anointed above his brethren, the human saints who judge and rule under him. The saints who are also raised from the dead and receive the Holy Spirit by promise. Jesus has the glory of a firstborn Son. The resurrection was according to an order and he was the first man, where he received a portion of the inheritance/spoils with the great and he was ordained to divide the rest with the strong. (Acts 2, 13, Ezekiel 36, 37, 1 Corinthians 15, Isaiah 53)
Psalms 89:1 I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations. 2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens. 3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. 5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. 6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? 7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him. 8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? 9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them. 10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm. 11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them. 12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name. 13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand. 14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face. 15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance. 16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted. 17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted. 18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. 19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. 20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: 21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. 22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. 23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. 24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
LU,
You gave a few verses about celestial messengers, where not one of those verses identify them as the messengers who on YHVH’s day of vengeance are there executing His judgments consuming with fire and by the sword, sinners making the wicked no more so that YHVH’s kingdom can rein overall the earth.
What is the context of Psalms 8?
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Matthew 21:14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them. 15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased, 16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
Psalms 8:1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
The above verse is not speaking of mankind in general at all, it is a specific prophecy of a man to whom YHVH would put all things under his feet so that YHVH could be all in all. David is given this prophecy and he is praising YHVH for it. David IS NOT SPEAKING TO ALL OF MANKIND, HE IS GIVING A PROPHECY. YHVH did not give to all of mankind all things under their feet.
The passage is about one man, whom YHVH visited giving him strength to heal, to deliver captives, to destroy enemies. YHVH was mindful of this man, whom YHVH had declared from the beginning would execute YHVH’s purpose. YHVH visited this man whereupon he received the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of YHVH. Through the Eternal Spirit living in him he offered himself unto to death, where then he was raised from the dead being crowned with glory and honor and being given dominion overall the works YHVH had made where then all enemies would be destroyed, put under his feet.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Paul is not quoting Psalms and speaking of all mankind just as David WAS NOT, he is speaking of ONE MAN to whom YHVH visited with His Spirit where YHVH perfected him through suffering and then crowned him with glory and honor GIVING him to be head overall things.
Hebrews 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the messengers; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the messengers for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hi LU,
Gen 1:26 26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it.”
First Point: Yes mankind was given dominion overall the earth, but there is ONLY ONE MAN whom prophecy spoke of that would receive dominion overall the earth including dominion over all of mankind, where all enemies are put under his feet.
The below passage is speaking prophecy of that ONE MAN.
Psalms 8: 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
LU, in the beginning mankind was given dominion overall the earth, but mankind was NOT given dominion overall the works of YHVH’s hands, as ALL those works had not been completed yet. There is a difference between “overall the earth” and “over the works of thy hands”. YHVH had not yet made Israel his Son, to which Jesus would receive dominion over. YHVH had not yet made David His anointed, whom Jesus would have dominion over, after YHVH would make him alive again. YHVH had not yet made the new heaven and earth, to which Jesus will have dominion over. YHVH had not yet made the animals upon the earth no longer wild, to whom the Son of Man will have dominion over.
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Second Point: YHVH is not two persons made up of a Father who is God and a Son who is Lord. Jesus is not YHVH returning to earth to put all enemies under his feet, he is the Son of Man who has YHVH’s Spirit begotten in him. This Son of Man is filled with the Knowledge of YHVH and he is to obey YHVH’s commands where in doing so he brings the whole earth into the knowledge of YHVH.
Isaiah 1: 24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies: 25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin: 26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city. 27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. 28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Isaiah 26: 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.
Luke 11:2 And he said unto them,When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Our Father’s name is YHVH he is Lord of all and our one and only God.
The Son of Man Jesus was appointed by YHVH as a lord over us, where he is the man YHVH ordained to judge the quick and the dead.
Hi LU,
I knew you believed that YHVH was two people representing the Father and the Son, thanks for clarifying that you see YHVH as God the Father and Lord the Son. My stance is still the same, your doctrine is impossible according to scripture.
So how does it work LU, in certain passages YHVH means both and at other times it represents just one of them?
Clearly, YHVH in Isaiah 11 represents the Father, correct?
Also, how does the below passage fit with your doctrine?
Isaiah 26: 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.
YOU: The YHVH, who is both God and Lord, who created alone is two persons who are one, the Father (our one God) through His Son (our one Lord)
ME: YHVH our God IS our Lord. We have ONE Person who is both God and Lord His name is YHVH.
Jodi,
Psalms 8 that is quoted in Heb 2, is definitely about mankind, not about the Messiah in particularly.
Psalms 8
4 Of what importance is the human race, that you should notice them?
Of what importance is mankind, that you should pay attention to them?
5 You made them a little less than the heavenly beings.
You crowned mankind with honor and majesty.
6 you appoint them to rule over your creation;
you have placed everything under their authority,
7 including all the sheep and cattle,
as well as the wild animals,
8 the birds in the sky, the fish in the sea,
and everything that moves through the currents of the seas.
Hi LU,
Prior to Hebrews 2 Paul establishes that he recognizes Jesus as God’s Son according to prophecy of Psalms 2 and of 1 Chronicles 17, these passages teach the very opposite of a pre-existing Son. In Hebrews 2 he also establishes that he recognizes Jesus from prophecy of Psalms 8, a man whom YHVH is mindful of and visits and crowns with glory and honor
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
First there is a son of David and then YHVH becomes a Father to him where YHVH settles him into His house. There is NO pre-existence here. There is a man who YHVH is mindful of and visits, making him into His Son, giving him His mercy and promising to crown him with the glory of an eternal throne.
Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Psalms 8:1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
Paul sees and is telling others to see that Jesus is a man of the prophecy of Psalms 8. The context of Hebrews 2 is that they too are of the prophecy, many Sons are brought to glory, but they are all under subjection to the one man who is not ashamed to call them his brethren for they are all of one, all heirs of God all Sons according to the One Spirit that bears witness to their spirit that they are all indeed children of God.
Hi LU,
I’d really like to discuss the below passage and the additional passages I believe are to be directly applied.
1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Jesus is a Son of God EXACTLY according to how other human beings are manifested as Sons of God.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street….6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Eph 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;
The man Jesus at the river Jordan was BORN OF GOD, the Son of God was manifested when YHVH called him in righteousness putting His Spirit in him. By the Spirit coming to dwell in him he was full of all goodness, righteousness and truth and the people beheld his glory, the word of prophecy made true in the flesh!
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:5 Jesus answered,Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
“In this the children of God are manifest”
Mark 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
1 Cor 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.
“In this the children of God are manifest”
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed (chrio-TO ANOINT where then you are thus the ANOINTED Christos) me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
“For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth“, Jesus was born of the Spirit an anointing, and then was sent to speak the truth, do good works, and fulfill all righteousness, obey ever command. Christ being sent in the flesh a man born of God a calling to righteousness where thus there is no sin.
This anointing of the Spirit is not one body but many.
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise*, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
“In this the children of God are manifest” which speaks to the same way as Jesus was manifested as a Son according to 1 John 3.
Ezekiel 37:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest,”
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.“
Hi LU,
Notice how YHVH is Lord in Psalms 2 and Jesus is YHVH’s anointed. The Father here is Lord, which does not mesh at all with your definition of YHVH.
Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
YHVH gives His anointed one the earth for his possession, and I am also to believe that the anointed one is also YHVH too, I don’t think so!
Hi LU,
Our heavenly Father’s name is YHVH and he is our Lord, as Psalms 8 is speaking of Him. The man who will put all enemies under feet has the name Jesus.
Psalms 8:1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
THINK ABOUT IT LU!!
YHVH our Lord made Jesus into a lord. Jesus is not lord because he is YHVH, he was made a lord by YHVH when YHVH raised him from the dead. This Son of Man was given dominion overall the works of YHVH’s hands, including all things to the church and all enemies that he would put under his feet. How does this man do all of his good works as an appointed lord overall? Through the Spirit of YHVH dwelling in him, is how he completes the will of YHVH, not by him being YHVH himself.
Hi Jodi,
Whether Psalm 8 is about mankind or the one man, Jesus, or both, the word “elohim” in the Psalm is properly translated as “angels” as you have written in your last post.
I am quoting you here:
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels
You have agreed that these two verses in Heb 1:4 and 2:7 refer to the same types of messengers:
Heb 1:4So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs.
Heb 2:7 You made him a little lower than the angels;
Also, You would do well to realize that the it was the Son through whom God made the universe according to Hebrews 1:2 and not a “plan” of a future son.
Another truth that you miss is that the Son who was in the beginning and through whom all things that came into being in heaven and on earth, came into being, did so through Him (the Son). That Son (whom the Father identifies as YHVH) who made all things that came into being during the creation of long ago, emptied Himself of His royal splendor to become lower than the angels, as a man, who later became far superior to the angels, having all authority in heaven and on earth given to Him from the Father YHVH..
You asked:
YHVH gives His anointed one the earth for his possession, and I am also to believe that the anointed one is also YHVH too, I don’t think so!
The anointed One is not YHVH the Father, the anointed one is the one that the Father identifies as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth…(Heb 1:10)
Scriptures claim that the Messiah will be called YHVH our Righteousness (Jer 23:6).
John calls the Son, who is to be called “YHVH our Righteousness” the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father (John 1:18).
Jesus says that the Father and He are One (John 10:30) as in perfect unity, being the exact representation of His nature (Heb 1:3), same wisdom (1 Cor 1:24), given the same power, same honor, same glory, etc. Rev 5:13.
Have a great day! LU
Hi LU,
You continue to speak the impossible where there is a serious lack of common sense and moreover you create much contradiction.
STOP and REALLY THINK!
Hebrews 1:1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, 2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through (DIA) whom also he made the worlds; 3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
#1 God spoke through the prophets and then LATER spoke through His Son. There was no Son prior giving THE WORD of God to the people, the prophets gave THE WORD of God.
Moses, an Israelite from the tribe of Levi, was one of those prophets that spoke to the fathers God’s WORD and THE WORD which he spoke was of a prophet to come who would be Jesus of Nazareth an Israelite from the tribe of Judah.
Deut 18:15 Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
YHVH our God spoke to Moses saying that He would raise up a prophet like him from among his brethren. That prophet is Jesus.
#2 YHVH our God “SAID”…He gave His “WORD” OF THE COMING PROPHET JESUS. Jesus was IN THE WORD spoken by Moses that CAME FROM YHVH our God. The Spirit came to dwell within Jesus and he was sent to speak prophecy. Jesus BECAME a messenger for YHVH our God.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?); 25 that frustrateth the signs of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 that confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith of Jerusalem, She shall be inhabited; and of the cities of Judah, They shall be built, and I will raise up the waste places thereof;
APPLY SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE as is intended where by such that which you speak becomes impossible.
#3 The below prophecy is not yet completed and it is the Son of Man, who was exalted to sit at YHVH our God’s right hand, who will complete it, he is a servant and a messenger of He who created all things ALONE
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit. 2 And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah. 3 And his delight shall be in the fear of Jehovah; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears; 4 but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his waist, and faithfulness the girdle of his loins.
#4 According to 1 Chronicles 17 YHVH our God would become a Father unto a Son of Man. According to Psalms 8 and Hebrews 2, this Son of Man would be an heir to all the works that YHVH our God’s hands had made. According to Isaiah 46 God declared from the beginning that this man, who would inherit all things, would fulfill all of YHVH’s will, he would fulfill why YHVH our God had made all things in the first place.
8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
#5 YHVH our God declared the end from the beginning and He made all things ALONE through (BY REASON OF) the man who YHVH had planned from the beginning to inherit it. He made it Himself through His Wisdom and His Power doing so by reason of him as it was FOR him .
DIA through
the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
by reason ofGene, you have already been asked to not post on this thread and now you have done it again. If you have something to say, please do so in a private message.
Hi Jodi,
Sorry that it has been awhile…
We are discussing Heb 1 and we are stuck at whether the aggelos are celestial angels or human messengers. I will deal with this point with you right now, other questions that you have, I am not going to address now for the sake of staying on Hebrews 1. You have agreed that the aggelos in Hebrews 1 are the same as the aggelos in Heb 2 so please verify that the aggelos in Hebrews 2:7 are celestial angels and not human messengers before I can go on.
Please tell me that you agree that Psalm 8 is speaking of angels that man was made lower than. You have quoted Psalms 8:5 many times as referring to angels, btw.
Psalm 8 5You made him a little lower than the angels;
LU
Hi Jodi,
I see that you have been busy. Welcome back. Please tell me how you think “dia” should be translated in Heb 1:2.
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through “dia”whom He also made the world.
Hi LU,
Thanks for the welcome back! I am still extremely busy so I’m not sure how much I can commit between now and the next month, so please forgive me if I am on and off again, lol!
dia is to be translated in Hebrews 1:2 as through (by reason of)
Dia
- through
of place
of time
of means - through
a. the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
1. by reason of
2. on account of
Our heavenly Father made the world by reason of the man Jesus and for the man Jesus. From the beginning our Father appointed this man heir of all things.
Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man (anthropos/human being) came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Luke 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
Our heavenly Father created all things by reason of and for the new man.
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man (anthropos/human being), so making peace;
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth😉
Isaiah 11:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
From the beginning, when YHVH our heavenly Father made the heavens and earth He foreordained the son of Jesse to be called to righteousness, to be born of YHVH/born of His Spirit, to be made a new man/a firstborn of many brethren who are led by the Spirit of YHVH following in all His ways. As firstborn from the dead he is heir of all things where he will fulfill all of Isaiah 11 and judge the world, “4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.”
All things that YHVH had made were made by reason of and for this man who will judge the world in righteousness through the Spirit of YHVH that lives in him.
Hi Jodi,
I understand being busy. I presently have had a billion things to research and select for a home that is being built “dia” me, lol.
Regarding “dia,” would you be interested to know that there is a specific grammatical form of the word that goes with the word “dia” in the sentence that does not allow for the translation “by reason of, on account of” and another grammatical form that does allow for that translation?
I can show you that if you really want to translate the word properly and it is not subjective. Interested?
LU
Hi Jodi,
I saw that you still claim that Matthew 1’s genealogy says that Joseph is the biological father of Jesus. You have been shown otherwise quite a while ago that the geneology list is pointing to Mary (who Joseph is the husband to), that gave birth to Jesus. The “of whom” is written in the feminine gender, NOT the masculine gender as it would be if it were pointing to Joseph, remember? Did you forget? It is really clear if you know about the gender of the pronoun that Mary is intended, not Joseph.
Matt 1 16And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.
Let me know if you are still confused about this? I will do what I can to make it more clear as I believe I did years ago.
LU
Jodi,
Believers would not be named YHVH anymore than the members of Israel all being named Israel. They are of Israel and also called Israelites.
Also, many sons have the first name of their father but not all the sons of that father are given the first name of the father.
Hence, Jesus was given the name of His Father…YHVH. There is no problem here. He has it in the OT, He is also called “The Word of the LORD” which is seen, felt, heard, and acknowledged as YHVH in the OT. I spoke to a Messianic Rabbi today and he confirmed that the Word that was in the beginning…refers to the Word of the LORD who appears in the OT.
- through
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