LU/Jodi Discussion

[Lightenup]

Hello,

Thank you Jodi for agreeing to discuss some Biblical matters in a one on one discussion format with me.

All other members, enjoy reading our conversation but please refrain from posting on this discussion topic. Thanks!

 

[Lightenup]

I am moving our discussion on Hebrews 1 to this place from the John 1:1 topic. I wrote part of Hebrews 1 down and in parenthesis, I put my understanding as to who the pronouns stood for. Here it is:

Hi Jodi,
This is how I read this:

Heb 1:5

5For to which of the angels did He (Father) ever say:

“You (Angel) are My Son,
Today I (Father) have begotten You (Angel)”?

And again:

“I(Father) will be to Him (Angel) a Father,
And He (Angel) shall be to Me a Son”?

6But when He again brings the firstborn (Jesus) into the world, He(Father) says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him(Jesus).”

7And of the angels He(Father) says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

8But to the Son He(Father) says:

“Your(Jesus) throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your(Jesus) kingdom.
9You(Jesus) have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You(Jesus)
With the oil of gladness more than Your(Jesus) companions.”

10And:

“You, Lord(Jesus), in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your(Jesus) hands.
11They will perish, but You(Jesus) remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12Like a cloak You(Jesus) will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You(Jesus) are the same,
And Your(Jesus) years will not fail.”

13But to which of the angels has He(Father) ever said:

“Sit at My(Father) right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your(Jesus)footstool”?

14Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

Would you do the same and put in parentheses, after the pronouns, who you think they pertain to please. I think you see them differently. Thanks! LU

[Lightenup]

Jodi, this is a copy of your response:

Hi LU,

Great idea,

Here is mine,

1 God (Father), who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son (Jesus), whom he (Father) hath appointed heir of all things, by (dia- on account of) whom also he (Father) made the worlds;

3 Who (Jesus) being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his (Father) person, and upholding all things by the word of his (Father’s) power, when he (Jesus) had by himself (Jesus) purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high (Father);

4 Being made so much better than the angels (prophets), as he (Jesus) hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

The prophets are messengers (Aggelos) of God, as the Son Jesus was likewise a messenger (Aggelos) of God,

5 For unto which of the angels (prophets) said he (Father) at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee (Jesus)? And again, I will be to him (Jesus) a Father, and he (Jesus) shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he (Father) bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he (Father) saith, And let all the angels (prophets) of God (Father) worship him. (Jesus)

7 And of the angels (prophets) he (Father) saith, Who maketh his (Father) angels (prophets) spirits, and his (Father) ministers (prophets) a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God (Jesus), is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God (Jesus), even thy God (Father), hath anointed thee (Jesus) with the oil of gladness above thy fellows (prophets).

10 And, Thou, Lord (Father), in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine (Father) hands:

11 They shall perish (prophets); but thou (Father) remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou (Father) fold them up, and they (prophets) shall be changed: but thou (Father) art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13 But to which of the angels (prophets) said he (Father) at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy (Jesus) footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits (prophets), sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

[Lightenup]

Thank you for your willingness to discuss this just between the two of us to avoid the distraction of many voices.

My first question to you is this…do you know what the Greek word translated as “prophet” is?

[Lightenup]

Jodi, I noticed that you answered this because it showed up in my notifications, for some reason it is not here though. Do you want to copy and paste it here or would you like me to?

[Jodi]

Hi LU,

Prophet Greek
profhvthß from a compound of (4253) and (5346)
Transliterated Word
Prophetes
compounds Pro- before and Phemi- to make know, to say

1. in Greek writings, an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things
2. one who, moved by the Spirit of God and hence his organ or spokesman, solemnly declares to men what he has received by inspiration, especially concerning future events, and in particular such as relate to the cause and kingdom of God and to human salvation

Hebrew
aybn Word Origin from (05012) Naba -to prophesy
Transliterated Word
Nabiy’
spokesman, speaker, prophet

I’m curious as to where you are going with this regarding the Greek word translated as prophet. The meaning in Hebrew and Greek denoted to Jesus means the same.

Jesus was prophesied by the prophet Moses to be made a prophet also.

Deut 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 

[Jodi]

Hi LU,

YOU:

Heb 1:5

5For to which of the angels did He (Father) ever say:

“You (Angel) are My Son,
Today I (Father) have begotten You (Angel)”?

And again:

“I(Father) will be to Him (Angel) a Father,
And He (Angel) shall be to Me a Son”?

ME : Can you clarify your rendering of  “you”, “him”  and “he”  as angel please?

Hebrew  -Mal’ak  messenger, representative

Greek – Anggelos  messenger, evoy

Both in the OT and NT these words are rendered unto both humans on earth and celestial messengers from heaven.  So which one of those two are you actually rendering as to the “you”,  “him” and ‘he”?

As I did not fill in my rendering to those specifically I will do so now, and give the direct scriptures that gives undeniable truth that my rendering is completely accurate. 

5For to which of the angels did He (Father) ever say:

“You (son of David) are My Son,
Today I (Father) have begotten You (son of David)”?

Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: ….33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 

And again:

“I(Father) will be to Him (son of David) a Father,
And He (son of David) shall be to Me a Son”?

1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. 15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David. 

 

[Lightenup]

Hi Jodi,

You asked:

Can you clarify your rendering of  “you”, “him”  and “he”  as angel please?

Heb 1

5For to which of the angels did God ever say:

“You are My Son;

today I have become Your Father”?

Or again:

“I will be His Father,

and He will be My Son”?

Basically, this question to the celestial angels was to point out that, what the Father said to the Son, he DID NOT also say to any of the angels. This passage is comparing the begotten Son to the angels. It was only to Jesus that the Father said “you are my Son…” and not to any of the angels. Let me paraphrase:

Hey angels, which one of you did the Father say “You are my Son…”

The answer is implied that it was said to none of the angels…it was only said to the only begotten Son on the day of the resurrection which confirmed the promise that was made to David.

The passage continues in Heb 1 to show the greatness of the Son over the angels.

I hope that helps.

[Lightenup]

Jodi,

The reason that I asked you what the Greek word for “prophet” is, was because you showed that you understand all the references to aggelos in Heb 1 to mean “prophets.”

If  “prophets” were meant throughout Heb 1, the Greek word “prophétés” would have been used, as it was in Heb 1:1, instead of aggelos. Therefore, I clearly don’t think that “prophets” are meant as the translation of aggelos. The passage is referring to the celestial angels, not to earthly messengers.

Hebrews uses the word “aggelos” many times. Reading each verse where it is used should help you see that it is the celestial angels that is meant. For instance:

Heb 2:16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

I encourage you to read the book of Hebrews and understand celestial angels when the word aggelos is used. There is no textual basis to understand the word as “prophets.”

[Jodi]

Hi LU,

I will respectfully disagree.

Just because we are being told in Hebrews 1:1 that God spoke through the prophets and then later through His Son, doesn’t mean that when Paul is later in the chapter providing comparison between Jesus a human messenger, with those of other human messengers, that the word “prophet” would have needed to be used.

In my original rendering of Hebrews chapter 1 I didn’t just have “prophet” for the rendering of anggelos but also other types of human messengers like apostles/ ministers, but I decided in my actual posting to just simplify it with “prophets”. I see now I should have just rendered anggelos to “human messengers” as that is the most accurate as to how I view it!!

Moving forward I will render anggelos as human messengers!

John the Baptist is called a prophet on one hand and on the other an anggelos. John is a prophet and John is a human anggelos.

Luke 7:26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. 27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

LU, we can read OT scriptures to hear what God said to His human messengers abundantly. “For unto which of the anggelos said he at any time…?”. Paul is correct, we cannot find any account of God telling any human messenger the same as what He had declared specifically to the coming Messiah.

We are not given in scripture what God said to celestial messengers concerning celestial messengers themselves.

Paul is not giving reference to a comparison that we can’t actually make, he is making comparison to that which one can actually confirm.

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels (human messengers), as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels (human messengers) said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

7 And of the angels (human messengers) he saith, Who maketh his angels (human messengers) spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows (Metochos)

Jesus’s fellows are the other human messengers to whom Paul has been making comparisons to.

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers (Metochos) of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;….14 For we are made partakers (Metochos) of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;…..

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers (Metochos) of the Holy Ghost,

Jesus’s fellows are the other human messengers to whom Paul has been making comparisons to, they are JOINT heirs with Christ, but Christ obtained a more excellent name then they.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Ephes 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 

Just as Jesus was a human messenger and a minister so too were other humans who had received God’s Spirit.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire:

Acts 2: 1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Acts 13:4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus. 5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister. 

Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said,I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Ephesians 6:21 But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:

Col 1:7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellow servant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;

1 Thes 2:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

Look at the end of Hebrews 1,

13 But to which of the angels (human messengers) said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Paul is speaking of human messengers like himself, ministers sent forth to bring forth salvation.

Col 3: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Ephes 3: 6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. 13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. 14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Acts 13: 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 16: 17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

Romans 10: 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

John 17: 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

LU, when you know Paul’s words elsewhere and apply them to what he said in Hebrews 1, it should be clear that he is speaking of human messengers. 

[Jodi]

Hi Lu,

Paul is speaking of human messengers/prophets/apostles/ministers to whom the Spirit bears witness to their spirit that they are flames of fire sent forth to preach the way to salvation. As they are to admonish and respect that Jesus was anointed with the oil of gladness above them they likewise are to acknowledge that such does not diminish their own calling and it’s highly important purpose.

 

[Lightenup]

Hi Jodi,

What Bible translation agrees with you that human messengers are meant instead of celestial angels?

[Lightenup]

Hi Jodi,

I’m refreshing this conversation. Did you see my last question to you?

[Jodi]

Hi LU,

In the OT

Mal’ak – messenger, representative

angel 111, messenger 98

In the NT

Anggelos  -a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

angel 179, messenger 7

It is the translator that decided to translate Mal’ak or Anggelos as an angel (celestial messenger) or as a messenger (human messenger) instead. One should look at the surrounding text and apply the truth from other scriptures elsewhere to determine the correct translation. I would argue that translators followed already held doctrines when they rendered their translations and by such they got a lot of things wrong.

Young’s Literal Translation renders all messengers (mal’ak and anggelos) simply as messengers.

 

 

[Lightenup]

Hi Jodi,

You said:

I would argue that translators followed already held doctrines when they rendered their translations and by such they got a lot of things wrong.

Opinion: they got a lot of things wrong

Fact: So, there are no Bible translations that support your view then.

Fact:  All Bible translations support my view.

I will go with the facts.

Are celestial angels spirit beings who minister or flesh beings who minister?

Are earthly prophets spirit beings who minister or flesh beings who are led by the Spirit who minister?

 

[Jodi]

Hi LU,

Translators are translators don’t get them confused with the authors who were under the Spirit.

All translations even though they DIFFER, you are saying they all should be taken at face value, well how would that not be confusing when they differ? Isn’t it because of that very fact that people are driven to use the lexicon so that they can make their own determination? I use the lexicon very often and I very much appreciate my Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible.

Are you really saying one should never bother referencing the original words?

LU, you might not like it but just as translators had the right to translate, I HAVE THAT SAME RIGHT and I trust in my personal relationship with YHVH as He guides me to read and understand His word over that of say St. Jerome who was originally skeptical of the Christian faith before he converted to the totally vile Roman Catholic Church.

Single words can often hold more than one meaning, like “dia” for instance. When one applies the wrong meaning to just that one word it can create a misinterpretation of the entire passage and lead to a false doctrine. Even punctuation can do that! Applying the surrounding context to a word as well as the truth given from all other scriptures, is how you determine the correct meaning of a word that holds multiple meanings.

 

[Jodi]

Hi LU,

If you only had the YL Translation, where Mal’ak and Anggelos are translated strictly as messenger, you would have to rely upon the surrounding text to be able to determine who the messenger was, now wouldn’t you?

YLT SUPPORTS MY VIEW, a word that means messenger should be translated as messenger!

YOU:

Are celestial angels spirit beings who minister or flesh beings who minister?

Are earthly prophets spirit beings who minister or flesh beings who are led by the Spirit who minister?

ME: 

Can you find a scripture that says that celestial angels are “spirit beings” actually, or is that just an assumption that people make, like other people assume angels are humanlike but have wings?

Earthly prophets are flesh beings who minster by the Spirit leading their spirits.

Human anggelos/messengers of God are ministering spirits who were baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 

LU, humans are flesh and they are seen and heard in the flesh but it is their spirits that are ministering unto the people where those spirits are being led by the Holy Spirit. These ministering spirits lead the spirits of others into truth and faith. 

 

 

[GeneBalthrop]

LU…….Sorry for butting in, but what did “the man” Jesus say unto the churches,?  “hear what the “Spirit” is saying unto the Churches,   Jodi’s point.

peace and love to you and yours………..gene

[Lightenup]

Jodi,

Where are human beings called ministering spirits elsewhere?

[Lightenup]

Gene,

You are welcome to address me in a PM but please respect the integrity of this closed discussion. Thanks.

[Author]

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