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Quote (david @ May 09 2006,23:40) Regardless, you were suggesting that I should “be a leader among them,” among a group that you consider to be not of the “body of Christ.” Why would you ever suggest such a thing?
Evangelise them with the truth david. You are among them and they are searching sincerely for that truth.Quote (david @ May 09 2006,07:54) You have missed my point apparently. You were quoting from something that was roughly 100 years old. We learn.
You should know this as I discussed works and faith in the “works and faith” thread that I began. We have had these conversations before. Yet you go digging through anti-JW websites for things that lead you to false conclusions.
What have you learned?
David,
Could you explain to me the doctrine of annihilation of the damed from a JW perspective? Scriptural proof much appreciated.
Thanks M4THi M42. I think you started a thread on just this subject. I answered you there, or directed you to where this has been discussed at great length.
If you could ask a more specific question, I would be happy to answer. But if we are discussing “hell/hades” or “hellfire” or whatever I would actually prefer to comment in those threads, as I already have discussed such things at great length in those sorts of threads.
Both Isaiah’s and Micah’s prophecies foretell such a re-gathering of true worshipers “in the final part of the days.” Isaiah says:
“It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: ‘Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.’”
A clear-eyed look at the facts shows that Isaiah’s prophecy is being fulfilled in our time.—Isaiah 2:2, 3; Micah 4:1-3.Hi david,
Christ will rule from Jerusalem in the 1000 year reign.
Christ rules now in submitted hearts.Yes, and in the final part of the days, the good news of the kingdom is being preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and it's being done by Jehovah's Witnesses. (Mat 24:14)
“It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: ‘Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.’”
A clear-eyed look at the facts shows that Isaiah’s prophecy is being fulfilled in our time.—Isaiah 2:2, 3; Micah 4:1-3.Quote (david @ Feb. 08 2007,02:32) Hi M42. I think you started a thread on just this subject. I answered you there, or directed you to where this has been discussed at great length. If you could ask a more specific question, I would be happy to answer. But if we are discussing “hell/hades” or “hellfire” or whatever I would actually prefer to comment in those threads, as I already have discussed such things at great length in those sorts of threads.
thakns David. I found the info —Jehovah's Witnesses Contradicted by their own “bible”
In Revelation 1:8. I am quoting from the Jehovah's Witness’s own Bible, and it reads, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God.
Ask the Witness, “What does Alpha and Omega mean?” They'll reply, “The beginning and the end.” Then ask them, “How many Alphas and Omegas can you have?” They'll answer, “Only one.” They will agree that there is only one Alpha and Omega.
Then turn to Revelation 22:12-13 which says, “Look I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me….I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses, “Who do you say the Alpha and Omega is?” They will say, “Jehovah.”
Now take a careful look. The Alpha and Omega in verse twelve is coming quickly. Let's see who is speaking in verse twelve.
Look at verse sixteen, “I Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star.”
It is Jesus speaking in verse twelve. If there is any doubt go to verse 20 which says, “He that bears witness of these things says, 'Yes; I am coming quickly' Amen come Lord Jesus.” So it is clear that the Alpha and the Omega in verse twelve is Jesus.
Here is a strong proof text that Jesus is God because both Jehovah and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega.
Another pair of verses that are effective when used together are Isaiah 44:6 and Revelation 1:17-18.
Isaiah 44:6 says, “This is what Jehovah has said, 'The king of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, I am the first and I am the last.'”
Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses how many firsts and lasts can you have? It's obvious to anyone you can only have one first and one last. Ask them, “Who is the first and the last?” They will say, “Jehovah.”
Now turn to Revelation 1:17-18 which says, “Do not be fearful; I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead but look! I am living forever.”
Who is speaking here? Obviously, it is Jesus for He died but is now alive, and guess what? He is called the First and the Last.
Here again we see Jesus is God.
Hi CB,
Don't stop.
Be fair.
Now to “prove” a trinity you will have to “show” the same about the third member of your god.We await your “revelations”.
Quote (Cult Buster @ Feb. 09 2007,12:16) Jehovah's Witnesses Contradicted by their own “bible” In Revelation 1:8. I am quoting from the Jehovah's Witness’s own Bible, and it reads, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God.
Ask the Witness, “What does Alpha and Omega mean?” They'll reply, “The beginning and the end.” Then ask them, “How many Alphas and Omegas can you have?” They'll answer, “Only one.” They will agree that there is only one Alpha and Omega.
Then turn to Revelation 22:12-13 which says, “Look I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me….I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses, “Who do you say the Alpha and Omega is?” They will say, “Jehovah.”
Now take a careful look. The Alpha and Omega in verse twelve is coming quickly. Let's see who is speaking in verse twelve.
Look at verse sixteen, “I Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star.”
It is Jesus speaking in verse twelve. If there is any doubt go to verse 20 which says, “He that bears witness of these things says, 'Yes; I am coming quickly' Amen come Lord Jesus.” So it is clear that the Alpha and the Omega in verse twelve is Jesus.
Here is a strong proof text that Jesus is God because both Jehovah and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega.
Another pair of verses that are effective when used together are Isaiah 44:6 and Revelation 1:17-18.
Isaiah 44:6 says, “This is what Jehovah has said, 'The king of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, I am the first and I am the last.'”
Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses how many firsts and lasts can you have? It's obvious to anyone you can only have one first and one last. Ask them, “Who is the first and the last?” They will say, “Jehovah.”
Now turn to Revelation 1:17-18 which says, “Do not be fearful; I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead but look! I am living forever.”
Who is speaking here? Obviously, it is Jesus for He died but is now alive, and guess what? He is called the First and the Last.
Here again we see Jesus is God.
you believe in the Trinity, so why should we listen to someone who lacks understanding of how UN-biblical this belief is.Your ignorance is only outweighed by your arrogance!
I find it funny that most people on this site say that all “religions” are wrong because they are simply “mans” opinion, when in all honesty…….this entire site is the exact same thing. (Independent opinions)
Here's something all of you can try……………… Don't worry….the information provided on this site is not my opinion, but the bibles. Once you understand the bible well, you will be able to tell what “opinions” come from man, and which ones come from the bible.
You can gain great knowledge from this informational site, but it will not change who you are as a person, it will simply raise your intelligence of what the bible teaches.
Once you accurately understand what the bible teaches, you can than come to an accurate knowledge of what the bible says GOD expects from his servants. (and yes….we are all his servants, regardless of how smart we think we are)
Enjoy………………….
Go to “Restored Worldwide Church of God” ( http://www.thercg.org ) to learn about every truth that the bible teaches. This information is entirely free.
And they don't use Jehovah's name, just god, lord, GOD, or LORD……………. so that should make everyone happy.
The BIBLE agrees (notice how I didn't say I agree?) with about everything this site teaches except a few “off-base” extremist views, as well as a quote from the author of the site that says to become a member, your have to pass “his” qualifications, as well as then being required to “Tithe” if you become a member. (This just doesn’t mix well with me)
It's been many years sense I've read the bible in a detailed manor, but I believe Jesus said to “give freely”, not “this is what you have to give” (but maybe I'm a bit rusty…who knows?)
Either way, all you “free minded” independent thinkers might be able to learn a few things, and you never have to make a commitment…….so this information is right up your ally.
All I care about is the “truth” being spread by what ever means possible.
The fact that the guy that built this site is a puppet of Herbert W. Armstrong, doesn't change the fact that most of the information is factually backed by the Bible (of course there's some personal opinions thrown in here and there, (no different than in these types of sites), but the bulk of the “meat” is still factual)
Everyone says they want to know for a fact what the Bible teaches, well…..here's your chance to find out for free and with no “label” being branded on you, no commitment required and especially without that nasty name “Jehovah” showing up everywhere!
No pressure………
You either want biblical truth, or you don't…..search and you will find it……………….
Nick, you say you're a pastor. (or was)
I'm wondering how long you have been studying your bible?
(don't worry I'm not looking to attack you in any way)Just curious…..
Quote (david @ Dec. 06 2005,07:28) Hello K4c
While I'm certain that Satan will argue with what I am to say, because he doesn't want people to know about Jehovah, I'll simply say this:If you have the right heart and you really are searching for the truth, it will find you.
Secondly, if you would like to know about Jehovah's Witnesses as a people, go to a kingdom hall. Meet the people. (There's likely to be between sixty and a hundred people there, unless you live in a small town.) I would suggest around 10:00 in the morning. Bring a Bible. We use it extensively. (If you want to look like you belong there and don't want as much attention, wear a suit.) If you want attention, wear jeans. There will be a Bible discourse that lasts 45 minutes. Then, there will be a Bible discussion (question and answer part) based on the current Watchtower article that lasts an hour. No collections are ever taken. People will come up to you and talk to you. First, they will ask where you're from. I think that is a clever way of determining if you are a Witness or not. If you say you're from so and so (which they recognize as a congregation), then you're a Witness. If you say: Taylor street, then you're not. (Of course, if you're not wearing a suit, or are covered in tatoos or have purple hair, this also will tell people that you're not a Witness.) Once that's determined, they'll ask how or why you came to be there.
If you want to learn what they believe, ask for a Bible study. Or, ask for a broshure that explains what they believe. Or, ask someone when and where the next convention in that area is.
But the easiest way to learn about Jehovah's Witnesses is the approach most people opt for. Sit on your couch. Wait a few months. Even though I don't know where you live, I'm going to make a prediction: There will be a knock on your door. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19,20)Not everyone will be happy to see you studying the Bible or associating with Jehovah's Witnesses, but do not let that stop you. Your eternal future depends on your getting to know God and doing his will despite any opposition. —Matthew 5:10-12; John 17:3.
david.
hey……I've got tattoos all over my body!
(I'm just joking with you)My name is Matthew.
I walked away from the Witness Organization over 10 years ago. I've never forgotten what I learned, but my heart wasn't in it.
I've spent 10 years of my life fighting for my own “independent” thoughts on how I could serve god on my own.
I've laid in my own vomit, I've fought 2 men at once, I've made alot of money (and I've also lost alot of money). I've been in quite a few scraps in my life, because I'm a fighter by heart (unfortunately I've spent too many years fighting for the wrong things). I've gotten my but handed to me in every way there is whether that be Physically, Emotionally, or Financially.
You see I fought against the truth that I learned as a witness in any way I could during the last 10+ years, but during all of this time I could never fight off the knowledge I had gained.
Once you got it……theirs no going back!
A few weeks ago I came across some videos that had nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses, but made me realize what was really happening in the world today. (google: “monopoly men” and “Who Rules the World”……use discretion while watching the 2nd one)
After 10 years of fighting against it, and looking for every little excuse I could get my hands on to justify my life choices, I then ran into this information that solidified all the knowledge I took for granted. I then had no choice but to accept my spirituality back into my life.
I came into these forums a few days ago after viewing “apostate material” and I was “stark raving mad”, because of how much twisting of words and hate was being directed towards this mild tempered organization.
I walked away because I liked to drink and fight, and I knew I wasn't good for the congregation. I did everything in my power to prove to myself why I was better off alone, but I could never even imagine going out of my way to tell others not to join.
My goodness, Jehovah's people are the most kindhearted, loving people I've ever known in my life……..and I know that the only reason they draw up this much hatred toward them is because they are the only ones “accurately” fulfilling bible prophecy.
I already knew most errors made in judgment during the late 1800's and early 1900's, (there wass all sorts of that crap going on at this time) and of course the whole 1975 fiasco, (which got rid of all the people stupid enough to believe that any man could come up with the year of Jehovah's anger (Matt. 24:36,42,44) (Matt. 25:13) (Mark 13:33) (Acts 1:7)
So anyway…… that's not what ticked me off…….what ticked me off was the accusation that the witnesses were a “CULT”….
Well if they're a cult….it's the first cult that I know of… that doesn't expect anyone to contribute unless they want to (I certainly never did), and that expects their members to be meek, united, peaceful, and mild tempered, and here's the kicker….. that actually expects it's baptized followers to live by bible standards, or they will actually be asked to leave the congregation!!! (what a bunch of crazy people!!!)
(Of course anyone can come back if they are willing to humble themselves and change their destructive behaviors)I chose to become a Jehovah's Witness when I was 14 years old, 4 years later I was out…but I learned more in those 4 years than 95% of today's (so called) religious leaders, and during the whole time I never donated a dime (mostly because I never had much).
Imagine that….a young guy with tattooed hands with a cigarette in one and a drink in the other…..looking for a fight…..
………and the whole time with more biblical knowledge than most all of the religious leaders in this world…
(how could this be?)(You see I had the knowledge, but I lacked appreciation)
I walked away when I was 18 years old and no one told me I couldn't leave. (the witnesses are NOT A CULT) In fact most of my (baptized) friends at the time were getting disassociated for not cleaning up their own acts…..this is only after “numerous” requests by the brothers to please quit acting in such manners.
You only get DF'd when you are repeatedly going against biblical teachings, with no show of remorse. (most people I know who get DF'd are pride filled, egotistical, cocky pieces of crap)
I personally walked away before I ever even had a chance to become DF'd, not that it made a difference, because I quit hanging out with anyone I previously knew anyway.
The point I'm making is this……. all the crap people put on their Hate filled web-sites are EXTREMELY deceitful. They make it look like when their is an elders meeting that it is dark and scary and that there a 3 brothers who are going to give you a verbal lashing.
THAT'S RETARDED…….
I've been in numerous elders meetings because I developed a spirit of independence and a taste for hard liqueur and street fighting. To get disassociated, you've got to go WAY out of your way to make it happen. I was “privately reproved” several times for behaviors not befitting a true follower of Jehovah. I was then “publicly” reproved for getting wasted at public gatherings several times. This was a protection for the congregation, not a “lashing” against me!!!
I was trouble, and I didn't deny it!! (unlike all these other Ex-Witnesses who cry and say they were mistreated…..that's complete and udder bullcrap!!)Anyways, this world and all of it's Mind-Controlled behaviors are very appealing, I fell for it hook line and sinker.
I've analyzed about every religion and belief and unique way of life there is….but my bible trained conscious wouldn't allow me to fall for any of the B.S. that is in this world….(which was frustrating, because I kind of wanted to be Buddhist, but then I found out that even they have teachings directly linked to Babylon the Great)
I then finally had to set my ego off to the side and swallow my pride and humble myself. (not an easy thing for me to do)
If you want to know your bible, you will learn very quickly with the Witnesses, but knowledge is not what it is all about. You need to learn how to develop a heart condition of “meekness” (something I'm lacking a bit of, but hope to get back soon)
The bible says the “meek” will inherit the earth. Jehovah's people are the meekest people you will ever meet. This doesn't make them better by any means, but they know that there are consequences for denying this trait in their lives. (just as I had to realize)
There is no requirement expected of anyone who simply wants to study and learn the bible. (you received freely, so shall you give freely)
If after coming to an accurate knowledge, you then decide that you want to dedicate your life to Jehovah in baptism, than this is where you will be required to meet certain standards (unlike all other religions on earth)
Dedicating your life to the maker of this universe should never be something taken lightly, or something you can just do today and then forget about tomorrow. (depending on how you feel).
You see… God actually requires more than mere “lip service” from the people that actually take the time to dedicate their lives to him in baptism. This is a commitment that should be taken very seriously (something I didn't do in my younger years)
My final point is this…..I've become a very strong man in several different areas of life….physically, emotionally, and financially……but I let the most important part of my life slip away from me because of not being a humble person…………. ……that being my spiritual life.
If you make a commitment to learn the bible, you will learn it….But if you make a commitment to Jehovah, there is no looking back, because it's the only organization of it's kind on earth.
(after 10 years of searching…. even I've had no choice but to face up to this fact)
Take care!
Romans 16:17
Now I exhort YOU, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that YOU have learned, and avoid them. 18 For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own bellies; and by smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones. 19 For YOUR obedience has come to the notice of all. I therefore rejoice over YOU. But I want YOU to be wise as to what is good, but innocent as to what is evil. 20 For his part, the God who gives peace will crush Satan under YOUR feet shortly. May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus be with YOU.Hi qa,
They really seem to own you and guilt is the name of the mortgage.
Hey why don't you come to Jesus instead of going back and rolling in their mud?
Go wants to wash you clean with the blood of the Lamb and remove all your remorse and guilt.
You are free to choose him so why go back to be a slave of man's futility?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2007,01:29) Hi qa,
No.
Never.
25years or so.
You've been studying the bible for 25 years?Wow…I was 4 when you started…
Hi qa,
When I was 15 a teacher read us the book of Acts each day for religious instruction and I have been hooked since then, but I only started reading it for the love of it 25 years ago, and He teaches me more of it's wisdom and beauty each day. I hate the way it is used and abused.I'm just curious…Is there a religion, or biblical ” group” that does not believe in the Trinity?? Other than JW's. I am so perplexed by the ignorance in religion today. There must be an organization of intelligent beings that can be free to worship Our creator AND give praise to his son. I just want to have a relationship with God again without feeling guilty because I'm not worshiping the way MAN says I should. Does this make sense to any of you.
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