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This thread is a one on one discussion between Lightenup and David. Please respect that. If anyone else posts here, their post will likely be deleted. Thank you!
I think this is likely a debate so moved it there. Group Discussions is for like-minded people who want a conversation among themselves. Correct me if I am wrong though.
Does this thread involve tiles then? Is this a tile thread?
Is Jesus also Jehovah?
No.
Besides the lack of scriptures that directly says “jesus is Jehovah” or “Jehovah is Jesus,” I would probably start by saying they are generally described differently, although they do possess some similarities of course. I'm certain we will be discussing titles applied to each, but I'd like to start with common normal language usage and logic.
Words have meaning.
Jesus is very often spoken of as the “son” of God, which describes the relationship in a way humans easily understand. A son is not his father and a father is not his son. Everyone understands the general meaning of these words in normal usage.
Words have meaning and convey thoughts.
While on earth Jesus did not go around telling people he was “Jehovah” or “the father,” but rather, people understood he was the son. When the question of who he was came up, the “son” was very often the answer.
If Jesus is Jehovah, this seems a strange thing to me, a hidden thing. It seems no real effort was made to convince anyone that “Jesus was Jehovah.”
Something I will also certainly bring up later is that if Jesus ever claimed to be God almighty (Jehovah), the Pharisees would have jumped all over that and accused him of that, rather than a lesser charge. They wanted him dead. If he ever claimed to be Jehovah, one would think enemies would definitely attack that claim. Yet, this isn't recorded.
I'm also curious about your scriptures that you quoted that have Jehovah in them.
David.
Quote (david @ May 10 2013,18:50) Does this thread involve tiles then? Is this a tile thread?
That is the Hot Seat. Beware the Hot Seat.Have you “won” yet…lol. You only win if we both win, David.
Don't worry, you won't get tiled like in the hot seat when you don't answer a question. But if you don't answer a question here, you better look out 'cause I just might put the question down in the 'hot seat' and then get you tiled, ha.
you said:
Quote Besides the lack of scriptures that directly says “jesus is Jehovah” or “Jehovah is Jesus,” I would probably start by saying they are generally described differently, although they do possess some similarities of course. I'm certain we will be discussing titles applied to each, but I'd like to start with common normal language usage and logic. Is there any scripture that says “The Father is Jehovah” or “Jehovah is the Father?” Just wondering since you seem to think Jesus isn't Jehovah just because scriptures doesn't directly say it. I suggest that there is Jehovah the Father, Jehovah the Son (John 17 the Son claims the Father gave Him His own name.) Also, Jehovah as the name of the eternal unity of both of them naturally together with their spirit.
Quote I'm also curious about your scriptures that you quoted that have Jehovah in them. Well, the name of the translation was above the verse. I did not add it. The translation is not of Greek manuscripts but of Aramaic manuscripts which some believe were the original manuscripts. In the Aramaic manuscripts they are not as vague with the name Jehovah as the Greek. In the Aramaic, a placeholder was used just for the name 'Jehovah.' You can go to http://www.peshitta.org and check out the forum over there which defends this.
Go here for instance to read this translation in 1 Cor 8:
http://aramaic-plain-english.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/8.htmI went to a Christian church a couple of weeks ago, during my trip to San Diego, that use the Peshitta (the original NT according to them) and the whole service was in Aramaic. The church was made up of a community of Christian believers that fled Iraq because they were told to either convert to Islam or leave the country or die. I had communion with them and went to their celebration afterwards. It was very interesting and they were very nice. The Rabbi (Aramaic was his first language and English his second or so) offered to put me in contact with the Bishop in the district who spoke English as his native language to try to answer any questions that I had. I have yet to do that although I plan on it soon.
Quote Is there any scripture that says “The Father is Jehovah” or “Jehovah is the Father?” Just wondering since you seem to think Jesus isn't Jehovah just because scriptures doesn't directly say it. Hi LU, I don't think Jesus isn't Jehovah “just because” it isn't directly stated. But, it is good to first realize and acknowledge that it isn't directly stated. There is definitely no scripture that says anything like that.
And yes, after minutes of work, I have found a handful of scriptures that make clear that Jehovah is the father, saying things such as:
“you are our father….you Jehovah, are our father.” (Isaiah 63:16).
“Jehovah, you are our father.” (Isaiah 64:8)
There are other scriptures where Jehovah is compared to a father, but not as directly. See Ps 2:7; 27:10; 103:13; Prov 3:12.
But, it's true that this isn't said a lot.
Again, I definitely don't disbelieve that Jesus is Jehovah “just because” it isn't directly stated. In fact I believe many things that aren't directly stated. But, when weighing evidence, it makes sense to first see if there is easy or direct proof of what you are wanting to prove. In this case, there does not seem to be.
Quote I suggest that there is Jehovah the Father, Jehovah the Son (John 17 the Son claims the Father gave Him His own name.) Also, Jehovah as the name of the eternal unity of both of them naturally together with their spirit. Since I also agree that “there is Jehovah the father,” no point discussing that.
Lets focus on:
“Jehovah the son”
Jehovah…the eternal unity of both of them naturally together with their spirit.Actually, to simplify this, I'd rather just focus on the first one. Or, at least, initially.
Why do you think this?
The people that make that bible say this on their website:
“Although the subject is highly controversial with some, we have examined carefully the differences between the texts and found very convincingly that the words themselves show that the Greek Manuscripts are translations of the Aramaic Manuscripts.”
I look forward to examining what convinced them of this. I quoted this because it shows that the bible translators understand that this is controversial.
I don't really know a lot about this, the aramaic theory, so my responses will likely be slow until I have studied it more.
“Another startling revelation was the ELS bible codes that have been so widely recorded in the Old Testament Scriptures, can't be found in the Greek NT, but are found all throughout the Aramaic NT.”
This website seems to only list two reasons for believing that it was originally written in Aramaic. And one of those reasons are secret hidden bible codes. I'm not sure this idea is going to go anywhere.
(Added: I should mention my quotes are coming from the website that is responsible for the bible you quoted from: http://aramaicnt.com/)
David, these are just some of the reasons that I believe there is Jehovah the Son:
Jesus says that the Father has given Jesus His (the Father's) name in John 17. I believe the Word of God (Jesus) was called Jehovah at times.
The Father's name is Jehovah.
There are things done by Jehovah in the future that don't seem to speak of the Father but rather the Son.
The Word of Jehovah plainly says that He is Jehovah in Gen 15.
Abraham speaks to one of the three 'men' and scripture calls the third 'man' Jehovah.
The evidence in the Aramaic manuscript.
The Targums often substitute the name 'Jehovah' with the 'Word of Jehovah'. The Targums reflect Jewish understanding in the OT times.
In the NT, miraculous things are boldly done and the disciples boldly speak in the name of Jesus. If He were not Jehovah, this would mean they were boldly speaking in the name of another god which would have gotten them killed by Jehovah.If you need proof of the above, just ask.
Quote You can go to http://www.peshitta.org and check out the forum over there which defends this. Looked at the forum. People both defend it and attack it. It's sort of like the trinity over here. I'm not sure there is anywhere on that site that clearly explains the proof. Much like this site, there are people arguing over it.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 11 2013,17:02) David, these are just some of the reasons that I believe there is Jehovah the Son:
Jesus says that the Father has given Jesus His (the Father's) name in John 17. I believe the Word of God (Jesus) was called Jehovah at times.
The Father's name is Jehovah.
There are things done by Jehovah in the future that don't seem to speak of the Father but rather the Son.
The Word of Jehovah plainly says that He is Jehovah in Gen 15.
Abraham speaks to one of the three 'men' and scripture calls the third 'man' Jehovah.
The evidence in the Aramaic manuscript.
The Targums often substitute the name 'Jehovah' with the 'Word of Jehovah'. The Targums reflect Jewish understanding in the OT times.
In the NT, miraculous things are boldly done and the disciples boldly speak in the name of Jesus. If He were not Jehovah, this would mean they were boldly speaking in the name of another god which would have gotten them killed by Jehovah.If you need proof of the above, just ask.
Hi LU, I don't need proof of the above as much as I need explanations and discussions on each of these points.Quote (david @ May 11 2013,01:05) Quote You can go to http://www.peshitta.org and check out the forum over there which defends this. Looked at the forum. People both defend it and attack it. It's sort of like the trinity over here. I'm not sure there is anywhere on that site that clearly explains the proof. Much like this site, there are people arguing over it.
David,
On this page of that forum (click on link),
http://www.peshitta.org/forum….art=180
about the 14th post down, Paul Y. points out the MRYA is an acronymn and wrote this:Quote Mar Ephraem from the 4th century, rather than trying to define it, said it's an acronym that stands for: Meem: Marutha (“lordship”)
Resh: Rabbutha (“majesty”)
Yodh-Aleph: Ethya (“self-existence')The last part is the telling. Here Mar Ephraem tells us plainly that he believed the Yodh-Aleph (which are the only two letters he grouped together in the acronym) stood for the name of God, YHWH, which clearly means “self-existent” in Hebrew.
If you read through that thread, clearly knowledge of the Aramaic language is truly necessary to understand about this.
Quote Hi LU, I don't need proof of the above as much as I need explanations and discussions on each of these points. I am happy to discuss these with you.
Some of the reasons why you believe there is “Jehovah the son””
1. Jesus says that the Father (named Jehovah) has given Jesus His (the Father's) name in John 17.
2. I believe the Word of God (Jesus) was called Jehovah at times.
3. There are things done by Jehovah in the future that don't seem to speak of the Father but rather the Son.
4. The Word of Jehovah plainly says that He is Jehovah in Gen 15.
5. Abraham speaks to one of the three 'men' and scripture calls the third 'man' Jehovah.
6. The evidence in the Aramaic manuscript.
7. The Targums often substitute the name 'Jehovah' with the 'Word of Jehovah'. The Targums reflect Jewish understanding in the OT times.
8. In the NT, miraculous things are boldly done and the disciples boldly speak in the name of Jesus. If He were not Jehovah, this would mean they were boldly speaking in the name of another god which would have gotten them killed by Jehovah.
It would make sense to discuss these things. I numbered them for simplicity.
I just think that anyone reading the Bible, is given tremendous amounts of clear evidence that Jesus is the Son (of God). I see no real evidence that Jehovah (the Father) is called the son. It seems so very very clear that Jesus was the “Son of God,” but to me, there is virtually no proof that Jehovah is the son, or spoken of in that way. I know you may argue: “I'm not saying Jesus isn't called the son of God,” but, I think it makes sense to see just how clearly it is made that Jesus is the Son, and how unclearly it is that Jehovah is the Son. So, some scriptures about Jesus identity.
Mark 1:1 NIV
The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.MARK 3:11
“Even the UNCLEAN SPIRITS, whenever they would behold him, would prostrate themselves before him and cry out, saying: “You are the Son of God.”“MARK 1:24
“What have we to do with you, Jesus you Naz·a·rené? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.” (The demons certainly knew “exactly” who Jesus was: the Holy One “OF” God, and hence, not God Almighty himself.)MARK 14:61,62
“Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.” (So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)MARK 15:39
“Now, when the army officer that was standing by with him in view saw he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.””LUKE 1:32
“This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High.” (How did the angel announcing his birth refer to him? Compare Ps 83:18, where it says that Jehovah alone is the Most High.)LUKE 1:34
“For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.”LUKE 4:41
“Demons also would come out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.”Luke 3:38 NIV
the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.Luke 4:3 NIV
The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”Luke 4:9 NIV
The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here.Luke 4:41 NIV
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.LUKE 22:70
“Are you, therefore, the Son of God?”MATTHEW 3:17
“Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”” (Who does Jehovah God’s testimony tell us Jesus is?)Matthew 4:6 NIV
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “ ‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’’”MATTHEW 16:16
“In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.””
(Jesus himself asked who they thought he was. With this response of Peter, Jesus pronounced him happy, because his Father had revealed this to him.)MATTHEW 8:29
“What have we to do with you, Son of God?”MATTHEW 26:59-63
“So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”“ (What did the chief priest charge Jesus as saying he was? Surely if there was indication that he was claiming to be God or those around him believed this, then that accusation would have been made. These were the ones who were accusing them of anything they could, making stuff up, bringing in false witnesses. Surely if he was claiming to be God himself, they would have capitalized on this.)MATTHEW 27:40
“If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!” (How did those mocking him while he was dying refer to him?)MATTHEW 27:43
“let Him [God] now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’”MATTHEW 27:54
“when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”“ (What conclusion did the army officer there at Jesus death reach?)MATTHEW 14:33
“Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.””
(Miraculously walking on water and calming the winds moved his disciples to what conclusion?)JOHN 1:34
“And I have seen [it], and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.””
(What did John the Baptist bear witness to regarding Jesus?)John 1:49 NIV
Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel.”1 JOHN 4:15
“Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God . . .” (According to John, if we are to remain in union with God, what must confess?)JOHN 1:49
“Na·thańa·el answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”” (How did Nathanael identify Jesus?)JOHN 5:18
“On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also CALLING GOD HIS OWN FATHER, making himself equal to God.”
(He was not saying that he was equal to God, but rather “he was also calling God his own Father,” and in the minds of the Jews, this was tantamount to making himself equal with God.)John 5:25 NIV
I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.JOHN 10:36
“do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?” (Who did Jesus himself say he was?)JOHN 11:27
“She [Martha] said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God.”” (What did Martha believe about Jesus?)JOHN 19:7
“The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”” (What did the Jews tell Pilate Jesus had made himself? If Jesus was claiming to be God, surely they who wanted him done away with would have charged him with this.)JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (Why did John write what he did? What did he want us to believe?)1 JOHN 5:5
“Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?” (According to John, what must we have faith in–that Jesus is God, or the “Son of” God?)
(It seems that John bore witness that Jesus was the “Son of” God, that he wrote what he did so that we would believe that Jesus was the “Son of” God, telling us to have faith that Jesus is the “Son of” God, and to confess that Jesus is the “Son of” God.)ACTS 9:20
“he [Peter] began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God.” (What did the apostle Peter preach about Jesus?)ROMANS 1:4
“but who with power was declared God’s Son.” (What was Jesus declared to be?)2 Corinthians 1:19 NIV
For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by me and Silas and Timothy, was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.”Galatians 2:20 NIV
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.Ephesians 4:13 NIV
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, at
taining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.Hebrews 4:14 NIV
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.Hebrews 6:6 NIV
if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.Hebrews 7:3 NIV
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.Hebrews 10:29 NIV
How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?1 John 3:8 NIV
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.1 John 4:15 NIV
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.
(((Are we anywhere told to acknowledge that the Jehovah is the Son?))))1 John 5:10 NIV
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.1 John 5:12 NIV
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.1 John 5:13 NIV
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.1 John 5:20 NIV
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.Revelation 2:18 NIV
“To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze.So we have an angel, demons, Jehovah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Nathanael, Peter, Martha, John, Paul, mockers of Jesus, an army officer who saw Jesus die, the Jews, all making very plain what they believed Jesus to be, the “Son of” God, or “God’s Son,” and hence, not God, but someone related to God, the “Son of” God.
This is clear proof that there is “Jesus the son.” On the matter of Jesus identity, it seems a lot of very different people understood who Jesus was, and who he was claiming to be.
I do not see this sort of proof with Jehovah being the “son.”
Looking through the Bible, there are many instances where the Father is called God. And there are many many instances (about 1000) where Jehovah is very very clearly called God. It's not hard to make the case that “Jehovah is the Father.” There are definite verses that say this. But, saying that Jehovah is also the Son, I guess that is what we are going to have to find evidence for.
Quote I see no real evidence that Jehovah (the Father) is called the son. Well, David, perhaps I have not made myself clear but I agree that Jehovah the Father is not called the Son, only Jesus is the Son of God. I am saying that Jehovah the Father gave his name to His Son…Do you know any fathers and sons that have the same name as each other. Usually there is a Sr. or a Jr. after their name in our day, or like Charles I or Charles II. I am not saying that John Sr. is also John Jr. or Charles I is also Charles II, for instance. I am saying that there are two who are called Jehovah, the Senior gave His name to His Junior so to speak. Understand? Read this here:
John 17
11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me.Oh, and I appreciate all the time that post took but I am not challenging the fact that the Father is not the Son. I totally agree.
For me, asking if jesus is also Jehovah, seems very similar to asking: “Is the son also the father”.
As my post made clear, Jesus was recognized as the “son” (of God) by a wide variety of persons. He was known as the “son of God,” by those around him, and by those who accused him.
Similarly, 1000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures, “Jehovah” is called “God.” And, while Jehovah is only called the father a few times, the father is called “God” many times.
Jehovah is definitely “the God,” and the God is also described as the father.So, my point, while I know it didn't directly attack your position, was just to show that:
1. Nowhere in scripture is Jehovah actually called the son (unlike where he is called the father) and
2. “Jesus” was known by everyone as the “son” (of God), and in comparison, I don't see any scriptures where Jehovah's identity is described as the “son.”
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